Maintenance for the week of February 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – February 18
• Xbox One: EU megaserver for maintenance – February 20, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• We will be performing maintenance for patch 4.3.4 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC).
The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Backload Argonian Resourceful passive

BahometZ
BahometZ
✭✭✭
You know it makes sense.

The Resourceful passive is widely regarded as OP in PvP, and pretty good but a lot of wasted resources in PvE (Who needs all three resources filled at once in any challenging content when you have healers and tanks?) It is precisely because it's so hated in PvP that any discussion about Argonian balance gets shut down by "What are you complaining about??"

If at least half it became an over time resource restore, it wouldn't be as much of a crutch in PvP as some contend, and in PvE it would allow you to mitigate the waste by using some resource as it fills up.

So instead of:

Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

It should be:

Whenever you drink a potion you immediately restore 2000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina, and an additional H, M and S over 10 seconds
(obviously open to suggestion)


And if we make this change, maybe some people will allow us to unzip our pieholes and talk about Argonians having some DPS capability, not just forever tanks and healers, which are far less stat dependent than DPS. Healing done is trumped by raw spell damage in utility and effectiveness. Healing is good, but spell damage is better. On live servers, magic damage is translated as elemental damage bonus, and healing is healing. There is no overlap. On PTS, magic damage is now spell damage, which is also healing. So now Altmer and Dunmer players have a bonus which helps them be healers in some content, and damage dealers in other content. For people with a main that they want to unlock all achievements on this is a very big deal. Healing done doesn't do any damage.

I'm not saying Argonians have to be great DPS, or even good DPS (anyway that's what practicing rotations are for), what I would like to see is something lore-friendly that acknowledges the possibility that you could use them for DPS and not get laughed at. Something like 75–128 spl/wpn damage boost when healed, with a cool down. It would represent vigor granted by the hist, a boost that the hist gives in times of danger. During the Oblivion crisis, the hist trees granted Argonians with superhuman strength, speed and resilience in order to push the Daedric invasion back through their own gates. Such was the fury of their onslaught that the Daedric generals shut the gates rather than deal with the roided up lizards. A minor damage boost on heal would be very legal and very cool.

(If this were enacted then I would think the healing done passive should be reduced back to 4% or 3%.)

It would be great to have these changes made simply to test them out while we have a PTS in front of us. I'm confident the backloaded resourceful passive would be welcomed by most. And I hope the Hist Vigor passive would be seen as a minor boon to a race that has seen nothing but nerfs this patch.


Bahomet the Saxhleel Magplar - Pact Healer, Paragon, CP 825 (NA XB)
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Dr.NRG wrote: »
    BahometZ wrote: »
    You know it makes sense.

    The Resourceful passive is widely regarded as OP in PvP, and pretty good but a lot of wasted resources in PvE (Who needs all three resources filled at once in any challenging content when you have healers and tanks?) It is precisely because it's so hated in PvP that any discussion about Argonian balance gets shut down by "What are you complaining about??"

    If at least half it became an over time resource restore, it wouldn't be as much of a crutch in PvP as some contend, and in PvE it would allow you to mitigate the waste by using some resource as it fills up.

    So instead of:

    Whenever you drink a potion you restore 4000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina

    It should be:

    Whenever you drink a potion you immediately restore 2000 Health, Magicka, and Stamina, and an additional H, M and S over 10 seconds
    (obviously open to suggestion)


    And if we make this change, maybe some people will allow us to unzip our pieholes and talk about Argonians having some DPS capability, not just forever tanks and healers, which are far less stat dependent than DPS. Healing done is trumped by raw spell damage in utility and effectiveness. Healing is good, but spell damage is better. On live servers, magic damage is translated as elemental damage bonus, and healing is healing. There is no overlap. On PTS, magic damage is now spell damage, which is also healing. So now Altmer and Dunmer players have a bonus which helps them be healers in some content, and damage dealers in other content. For people with a main that they want to unlock all achievements on this is a very big deal. Healing done doesn't do any damage.

    I'm not saying Argonians have to be great DPS, or even good DPS (anyway that's what practicing rotations are for), what I would like to see is something lore-friendly that acknowledges the possibility that you could use them for DPS and not get laughed at. Something like 75–128 spl/wpn damage boost when healed, with a cool down. It would represent vigor granted by the hist, a boost that the hist gives in times of danger. During the Oblivion crisis, the hist trees granted Argonians with superhuman strength, speed and resilience in order to push the Daedric invasion back through their own gates. Such was the fury of their onslaught that the Daedric generals shut the gates rather than deal with the roided up lizards. A minor damage boost on heal would be very legal and very cool.

    (If this were enacted then I would think the healing done passive should be reduced back to 4% or 3%.)

    It would be great to have these changes made simply to test them out while we have a PTS in front of us. I'm confident the backloaded resourceful passive would be welcomed by most. And I hope the Hist Vigor passive would be seen as a minor boon to a race that has seen nothing but nerfs this patch.


    I think argonias are fine as they are as of last change made to them

    Can you explain why you feel Argonian is "fine"?

    They have the lowest DPS, Imperial and Nord are now better tanks as they offer more utility (Imperial has cheaper Warhorns now on top of having equivalent sustain to an Argonian), Breton is the better healer with more sustain and equivalent healing numbers (slightly lower than Argonians, yes but not by much and Overhealing is still a thing so its irrelevant if you overheal by 2% vs 3%). PvP wise, Argonians don't really offer much of anything useful that distinguish them from other races in a meaningful way. Disease resistance is practically meaningless as it covers all of 1 attack in PvP, which bypasses the Disease Status Immunity effect anyways, devaluing it even more and Resourceful is only as good as it is on Live because of all the other Argonian passives coupled alongside it and Heavy armor but with the rest of Argonian's passives nerfed, it's not even that great anymore; It's decent but hardly anything to write home about after all the buffs all the other races got.

    Argonian is far from fine in my eyes so please, enlighten me on why you feel they are fine because everyone is just tossing that word around without any sort of justification as to why, despite everything pointing to the contrary.
    Argonian forever
  • Anyron
    Anyron
    ✭✭✭
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this

    It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
    ✭✭✭
    You're right, it's not a nerf. It's a "stay broken".
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • ebls_BR
    ebls_BR
    ✭✭✭
    IMO they should buff both Argonian's health and magicka status to a Dumner maximum status, like 1875 health and magicka.

    In that way, with 6% healing done and the potion passive, they would be competitive in PVE and PVP (as healers, tanks and DD).
    Edited by ebls_BR on February 12, 2019 2:00PM
  • Koronach
    Koronach
    ✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this

    It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.

    Wow! one racial passive is useful to me out of all 4 of them. That's utter trash, I thought this racial change was supposed to make all races viable for everything? So 1 racial, that S*** pot passive is the only thing useful to me. That's broken when our races passives clearly are aimed at doing only one thing.
  • Anyron
    Anyron
    ✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this

    It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.

    Healing done +5% healing received +5% changed to healing done 6% healing received +0%

    Health nerfed ( on live 1400 health = 9% racial with total 18600hp, which everyone has) to 1k flat number, so its -400hp for me

    Poison resistance nerfed to 0 and removed immunity status effect

    Resourceful nerfed from 4,6k to 4k

    Every argonian passive was nerfed. If this is unchanged from live then we play different games.
    Edited by Anyron on February 12, 2019 2:17PM
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this

    It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.

    So the reduced survivability, sustain and damage is all in our heads, right?
    Argonian forever
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
    Class Representative
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.
    Guild-Lead Dolche des Königs PC EU
    PvP on Sotha-Sil and Vivec
  • Koronach
    Koronach
    ✭✭✭
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.
  • cheifsoap
    cheifsoap
    ✭✭✭
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    I pretty much agree with what you're saying but these nerfs are going to make most players go Breton for healing or Nord for tanking. Argonians have lost their niche with these nerfs, especially when the alternative races outpace them in almost every way. I think most of us get it, they were OP in PVP and that should be taken in to consideration but perhaps the solution isn't nerfing them at a race level but at another level.
  • Royaji
    Royaji
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Koronach wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.

    Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.

    But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.
  • brandonv516
    brandonv516
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    The resourceful passive is the only reason to go Argonian. It was nerfed slightly but still the best passive for all roles in PvP.

    I have 8 Argonians who would prefer it stay the same.
    Edited by brandonv516 on February 12, 2019 4:02PM
  • Koronach
    Koronach
    ✭✭✭
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.

    Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.

    But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.

    They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.
  • Royaji
    Royaji
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Koronach wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.

    Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.

    But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.

    They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.

    And I'm saying you should stop listening to what they say and take a look at what they do. At competitive level some races will always be behind so ZOS hasn't bothered to spend time on a futile attempt to balance it. The only way to fix it is to remove racials and this option was not on the table.

    Argonian still makes a viable DD with extra flavor of being sturdier and offering stronger off-heals. They are also still competitive as tanks especially on non-DKs who can use extra burst based sustain. But they will never hit the numbers of Altmer or sustain of Breton as magDD or Orc/Redguard as stamDD and that is definitely intentional.
  • Koronach
    Koronach
    ✭✭✭
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.

    Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.

    But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.

    They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.

    And I'm saying you should stop listening to what they say and take a look at what they do. At competitive level some races will always be behind so ZOS hasn't bothered to spend time on a futile attempt to balance it. The only way to fix it is to remove racials and this option was not on the table.

    Argonian still makes a viable DD with extra flavor of being sturdier and offering stronger off-heals. They are also still competitive as tanks especially on non-DKs who can use extra burst based sustain. But they will never hit the numbers of Altmer or sustain of Breton as magDD or Orc/Redguard as stamDD and that is definitely intentional.

    I would still like something other than the potion passive to reflect our Shadowscale heritage. Shadowscales are assassins, they don't heal people and they don't defend them as tanks. They kill people, so a racial passive other than drinking a potion would be nice to reflect that aspect.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    You're a class rep, wow. They stated that the point of these changes was to make every race viable for every role. You are defending them for doing the opposite. Now we know what the problem is, they got people like you helping them make these *** changes.

    Take a look at all the changes and ask yourself, "was the point to make every race competitive for every role?" Your answer is no. No, it was not. Orcs are still not competitive as magDDs or healers. Altmers and nords are still not competitive stamDDs. Bosmer tank is also not competitive.

    But it is very important to use the word competitve here. All races are viable. You can clear every single piece of content with them. What they are not is competitve but it is obviously not the main concern of that patch.

    They said they wanted to give freedom in builds, our racial passives are worthless for anything but healing. That is my main problem with them, they give no freedom at all. Most of them are useless in what I want to play as.

    And I'm saying you should stop listening to what they say and take a look at what they do. At competitive level some races will always be behind so ZOS hasn't bothered to spend time on a futile attempt to balance it. The only way to fix it is to remove racials and this option was not on the table.

    Argonian still makes a viable DD with extra flavor of being sturdier and offering stronger off-heals. They are also still competitive as tanks especially on non-DKs who can use extra burst based sustain. But they will never hit the numbers of Altmer or sustain of Breton as magDD or Orc/Redguard as stamDD and that is definitely intentional.

    All I see is a race that can't do jack**** over another race in any area of the game. Imperial is the better Tank as it has comparable sustain, more damage and group utility in cheaper Warhorns.
    In terms of sturdy, offheals DPS, Orc Stamden has you covered.
    At no point does burst resources matter outside of PvP and realistically, you aren't getting much of anything over another race when it comes to potion usage as the heal is barely noticeable and the off resource return will provide 1-2 utility uses, at most, in a 45 second window of opportunity, which isn't a whole lot, while the main stat resource barely breaks even with most other race's natural sustain.

    I'd gladly trade Resourceful away at this point because it's literally the only argument people ever bring about when discussing Argonian as "fine" despite the fact that all other races bring more to the table in practically every way.
    Argonian forever
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
    ✭✭✭
    +1000 Max Magicka
    +6% Healing Done
    +126 Spell Damage if you have 2100 Spell Damage unbuffed, but only for Healing
    Restore 4000 Magicka every 45 seconds
    +105 Magicka Recovery if no Magicka is wasted
    Restore 4000 Stamina every 45 seconds
    +102 Stamina Recovery if no Stamina is wasted

    Summary per role (except Tank)

    Healer
    +1000 Max Magicka
    +105 Magicka Recovery
    +126 Spell Damage

    MagDD
    +1000 Max Magicka
    +105 Magicka Recovery

    StamDD
    +102 Stamina Recovery
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
    ✭✭✭
    This was a very long post to ultimately just ask for some argonian spell or wep damage. But sure.

    Hah, you got me. But genuinely, even if there was no damage boost, the Resourceful passive needs to change to something more thoughtful and balanced.
    Bahomet the Saxhleel Magplar - Pact Healer, Paragon, CP 825 (NA XB)
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Anyron wrote: »
    With recent argonian nerfs, and buff for other races, Argonians are now much weaker in both dps and healing than on live

    In both dps and hps tests argonian is last of all magicka races in dps and its third in healing ( after altmer and breton) which isnt good.

    Only whats left is tank role which is dying role, and only with specialized build with Potion Cooldown enchants which is unwise to use on dps, so dps/tank isnt possible there.
    Because of one passive which is useless for both dps and healing they condemned whole race to tanking only

    Please, do not do this

    It's almost unchanged from live. The *** are you talking about.

    So the reduced survivability, sustain and damage is all in our heads, right?

    I'm inclined to agree. Nord is 1500 and 1000 for attributes. Argonian is 1000 and 1000 now. Therefore they took a relative hit in attributes. They use to have more parity. Argonian lost poison resistance. Argonian lost healing received. The only thing Argonian has going for it is the stupid potion passive that unbalances the whole thing for some reason. I still assert that Argonians should have high built in regeneration. I asserted this even before such a thing was considered good in ESO because it fits their theme. I'm not even sure Argonian would be in a right place if they gave them +1000 Stamina.

    (Disclaimer: I think the general approach they are taking to racial passives is a good thing, but Argonians got hit pretty hard in the changes they plan to make.)

    What I find most amazing about this is how soon Argonians have fallen after being complete garbage for years in the game. This is even more amazing because it comes on the heels of the Murkmire expansion. You'd think they'd let us enjoy Argonian-ness a little longer after the Argonian DLC.
    Edited by dodgehopper_ESO on February 13, 2019 12:08AM
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
    ✭✭✭
    Checkmath wrote: »
    Regarding the resourceful passiv:

    OP asked why that was not changed and that is very restricted of use., which I do not really agree with. Argonians of live server but also on the PTS are not meant to be a dps race. Only as a dd the resourceful passive is bad, since as dd only one stat is used and therefore required, meaning the other two are not needed. But just as stated, argonians are not really meant to be damage dealers. And in every role they fulfilled so far (tanks and healers in PvE and everything in PvP) they can make great use of the resourceful passive. Especially tanks need both stamina and magicka for their role, for blocking, taunting and utility spells. Additionally its also a quite the heal (especially combined with tripots). Also healers make great use of resourceful. Its a small selfheal and gives their primary stat for healing back. Also stamina is very important for healers in content, where they have kite responsibilities like in AS or CR. I do not even want to get started how useful that one passive is as it is in PvP.

    So summarized: OP states, that argonians are not a damage dealer race and are used rather for tanking and healing. Still he complains about the passive not being useful for damage dealer specs, despite it being great for the other two roles. So OP almost answered his own question, why resourceful should stay as it is: it is a very useful passive for the roles argonians are meant to be played.

    Except my proposed change is still useful for healers and tanks, in fact possibly more useful in PvE, because you will get an initial burst plus some sustained resource restore, allowing you to avoid waste. With this change you can actually block and still restore stamina as a tank. My primary argument is that Resourceful should be changed to be less of a crutch in PvP, while still being useful in PvE. If Argonians were given something, anything to make them slightly attractive for damage dealing, that would be amazing. By ZOS own mission statement, they want races to have more variety in roles. Well here's a chance.

    Bahomet the Saxhleel Magplar - Pact Healer, Paragon, CP 825 (NA XB)
  • Roboplus
    Roboplus
    ✭✭
    Would still rather just drop the +Healing Done in favor of... Well anything really. +Health, +Magicka, +Stamina, +Weapon Power, +Spell Power, +Weapon Crit, +Spell Crit, +Crit Damage, +Healing Received, Reduced Detection Radius- just about anything.

    But nerfing Resourcefulness by such a minor degree isn't going to cause them to give us SP/WP. They'd just nerf it and potions would be a thing you have to drink actively, instead of the option for drinking them reactively.
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Roboplus wrote: »
    Would still rather just drop the +Healing Done in favor of... Well anything really. +Health, +Magicka, +Stamina, +Weapon Power, +Spell Power, +Weapon Crit, +Spell Crit, +Crit Damage, +Healing Received, Reduced Detection Radius- just about anything.

    But nerfing Resourcefulness by such a minor degree isn't going to cause them to give us SP/WP. They'd just nerf it and potions would be a thing you have to drink actively, instead of the option for drinking them reactively.

    Personally, I would have been fine with Resourceful being at 3600 like it was originally in the PTS if we had gotten literally anything of use out of it. Instead, all we got was nerfed into the ground across the board without anything to really help distinguish us, let alone be useful for anything. While some races got to break away from their original racial limitations, Argonian was being hamfisted into a Healer only race as it lost a good bit of what it originally had for Tanking in both Poison resistance removal as well as Healing Received as well as its only good feature for DPS purposes.

    If ZOS would have at least given Argonian 1500 Magic, that would have done the same thing but at least opened up the DPS side of Argonian a little more, instead of just giving us more of the same old, same old.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 13, 2019 5:24AM
    Argonian forever
  • vesselwiththepestle
    Argonian is BiS for Race Change now.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    Argonian is BiS for Race Change now.

    Lol. Love the passives though maybe this would encourage diversity.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Kulvar
    Kulvar
    ✭✭✭
    Roboplus wrote: »
    Would still rather just drop the +Healing Done in favor of... Well anything really. +Health, +Magicka, +Stamina, +Weapon Power, +Spell Power, +Weapon Crit, +Spell Crit, +Crit Damage, +Healing Received, Reduced Detection Radius- just about anything.

    But nerfing Resourcefulness by such a minor degree isn't going to cause them to give us SP/WP. They'd just nerf it and potions would be a thing you have to drink actively, instead of the option for drinking them reactively.

    You still have to drink them on cooldown to maximise the restoration.
    But that's not the issue.

    It's the restoration of pool instantaneously that hinder any other racial passive potential of the Argonian. Because of PvP.
    Edited by Kulvar on February 13, 2019 9:05AM
    Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact
Sign In or Register to comment.