@nafensoriel Now real estate and design software is something I can talk about. The average dollar per square foot in Los Angeles for commercial property varies from 2.5-6.5 dollars per SQFT on average. Typical rents for a studio space range from 10-25k a month depending on size. It's really not that expensive.

And software isn't as crazy as it used to be. 3dsMax used to be over 3500 bucks for a single user license, but with everyone moving to subscription based it's CRAZY cheap now. I can get a floating license for 3dsMax for 1500 bucks for a year. And AutoDesk and Microsoft (since you mentioned Word) offer Enterprise account deals.

Again, money is a non issue. These guys have plenty. That's why they do this to begin with....

In all MMO´s is hating a trend and in all MMO´s people scream that the end of MMO is near. And on this and last year it gives the most overdramatic Shitstorms and Shitstorms generally than i have ever seen. Players follow an extreme selfish path, many players know everything better and make themselves to the majority. They think that they will make the game better with their protests or that with enough pressure the Developer want hear them and do what they want. When they have buy the wrong Games then it is the fault of the developers. Lootcrates and Shops are bad, but on a few other Games it will celebrated. people are afraid for their data and using Facebook and other social Media. They dislike Steam in the past and today the Shop is for many Players very great.

Many players don´t read informations about the game what they buy. They order in Advance Games although they know, that new online Games are evermore full of bugs when they are released. They dont learn and say that the companys should learn. Crazy contradictions.

And the worst thing is, that the reallife does not look better. Trumping everywhere.

I dont know why some people need this drama and are so destructive.

ESO has bugs and problems. Yes it has. But all MMO´s have bugs and problems. No Online and No Singleplayergame is perfect. Thats a fact that many people don´t understand.

I think that ESO is going through a good development and when it would continue to build on it then ESO has a good future.
ESO is the first MMO that i play 4 years in a row, longer than i have play WoW in a row. That should say enough. Call me Fanboy. I do not care. Better than to complain senseless about everything.

@Soldier224 I feel you've missed the intent with my post. Again it is not to complain or start drama. It's a look to the developer that I shell out a good amount of money to on a regular basis to address a broad stroke question that is asked by many (that's a fact, not me pushing my own will) and that is what is the long term strategy for improving the game play experience?

I do understand all games are buggy. It's the nature of the beast. But I also don't accept that there are many issues that could be addressed and corrected, and I see hundreds of people ask very fair, simply questions regarding said issues to get zero response from the developer.

My aim of the discussion is to hold the developer accountable and get some insight into the future of the game, because I don't see myself continuing to fork over money for a game that I can't even enjoy because of unnecessary issues that should be fixed.

I don't claim to have the answers. I don't know what the solution is, if anything i've mentioned a few things that may contribute to it, but the reality is I don't know and I'm asking the developer "Hey, is there a game plan for this or not?" Because if not, as said in a previous post, at some point I'll count my losses and on to the next.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

No it does not take 150 million bucks to make a AAA mmo. It takes about 16 mil to produce market and release. When greedy corporation star handing out bonuses. Charging development teams to market IPs they created and demand 3 x the developer cost before the creators can get paid backend money. The bloat gets massive just look at bioware not one person that had worked their or built that company exist anymore . They stole the company the IP and exploited a mediocre game of the IP alone. Eso is a cash grab

16 million doesnt even cover the building rental or developers.
7 years x 50 x 100k is 35 million. That assumes that only 1/5th of ZOS is actually a developer.
Building costs are usually between 1000-5000 a square foot before you consider putting anything INTO that building.
Software licences etc for all the tech you need again spiral into millions. You cant just pirate 3DS or Word.
Gods if you think a game the size of ESO can be made with 16 million I want to see your detailed business plan. I seriously will fund it if it's remotely in the realm of reality just so i can rip off all your great ideas in streamlining production.
/edit Whoops I had developer budget at 245! an eyeballed total project budget not just salary!

Thehartclan wrote:

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

I neglected to actually answer this. Sorry about that.
9 million a month isn't actually all that much when you consider what a studio of 250(the size of ZOS) costs to run.
From the above quote, you can see that just 50 developers alone would cost in excess of 500k/month on salary alone. This doesn't cover insurance, benefits, etc. If you add in all the support staff, licencing, building costs etc.. you aren't making anywhere near 9 million /m. Also bear in mind that with software development money is "boom and bust". Just because they make 9 million /month NOW doesnt mean they made 9 million a month aggregated. Remember for over 7 years ZOS had zero income and all expenses. Debt reimbursement isn't fun on the bottom line.

Historical data partner rift cost 10 million. Wow about the same. EQ 2 was about 14. Those massive inflated budgets started with EA . Zos took a 300 million dollar loan to start the studio. But that was for multiple games to build not just ESO.

Holy crap man, you do realize those budgets were based on titles from the late 1990s right? Software went through a few evolutions since then as well as the hardware that powers them. ESO was produced in the post 2000 software world. Salaries alone have SKYROCKETED since then as have operating costs. EA had nothing to do with increased budgets. Increased art assets is more to blame.

Seriously this is like saying a modern civic should cost as much as a civic from 1980.

Thehartclan wrote: »

@Nafirian and I hope you're right and ZOS continues to strive to make this game better. In the interim though I see gradually worsening play experiences which is the frustration I and many share. I completely agree too with bug fixes - they only go so far. Sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch on certain pieces of content and try again.

The second part that i'd be curious about your thoughts though is features in the game i.e. interface upgrades, housing upgrades (better features, more flexibility) - the reason I mentioned the engine was because that's been the answer I've seen from several is the engine prohibits a lot of this such as how many assets a single area can handle before it crashes.

Obviously there needs to be a balance of new vs old and I guess that's where I'm stuck is I don't see the balance currently. I just see a constant push to get new stuff out the door with little acknowledgement of all the existing stuff that's lacking or suffering.

Appreciate the thoughtful response, it's nice to have a good discussion on here for once!!

Most people has no idea that they are talking about.
ESO performance is tied into 3 parts. First is server. this should affect all in instance, most visible in Cyrodil but also ran into it in trials a few times. For Cyrodil simply upgrading the servers might work that if if code is very multitasking who I think it should be, also optimization.
Second in latency. if play from Austrailia on an mobile network then to an wireless router it will be bad.
Last is your computer / console. ESO is pretty cpu demanding, most pc players also configure their setting for overland and GPU get overwelmed in the AOE storm who is Cyrodil or trials.
Have lower settings here.

nafensoriel wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

No it does not take 150 million bucks to make a AAA mmo. It takes about 16 mil to produce market and release. When greedy corporation star handing out bonuses. Charging development teams to market IPs they created and demand 3 x the developer cost before the creators can get paid backend money. The bloat gets massive just look at bioware not one person that had worked their or built that company exist anymore . They stole the company the IP and exploited a mediocre game of the IP alone. Eso is a cash grab

16 million doesnt even cover the building rental or developers.
7 years x 50 x 100k is 35 million. That assumes that only 1/5th of ZOS is actually a developer.
Building costs are usually between 1000-5000 a square foot before you consider putting anything INTO that building.
Software licences etc for all the tech you need again spiral into millions. You cant just pirate 3DS or Word.
Gods if you think a game the size of ESO can be made with 16 million I want to see your detailed business plan. I seriously will fund it if it's remotely in the realm of reality just so i can rip off all your great ideas in streamlining production.
/edit Whoops I had developer budget at 245! an eyeballed total project budget not just salary!

Thehartclan wrote:

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

I neglected to actually answer this. Sorry about that.
9 million a month isn't actually all that much when you consider what a studio of 250(the size of ZOS) costs to run.
From the above quote, you can see that just 50 developers alone would cost in excess of 500k/month on salary alone. This doesn't cover insurance, benefits, etc. If you add in all the support staff, licencing, building costs etc.. you aren't making anywhere near 9 million /m. Also bear in mind that with software development money is "boom and bust". Just because they make 9 million /month NOW doesnt mean they made 9 million a month aggregated. Remember for over 7 years ZOS had zero income and all expenses. Debt reimbursement isn't fun on the bottom line.

Historical data partner rift cost 10 million. Wow about the same. EQ 2 was about 14. Those massive inflated budgets started with EA . Zos took a 300 million dollar loan to start the studio. But that was for multiple games to build not just ESO.

Holy crap man, you do realize those budgets were based on titles from the late 1990s right? Software went through a few evolutions since then as well as the hardware that powers them. ESO was produced in the post 2000 software world. Salaries alone have SKYROCKETED since then as have operating costs. EA had nothing to do with increased budgets. Increased art assets is more to blame.

Seriously this is like saying a modern civic should cost as much as a civic from 1980.

Lol rift was released in 2011 lol and game grunts salary went up by 11% over last 10 years . That's. 1.1 % COL increase. the market is saturated. With millenials with a BA in computer sciences making 60k a year . Terra gw2 of all cos under 60 mil. EA's money went to purchasing studios and absorbing them and cannibalizing IPs. ZOS took out 300 million dollar loan to start a studio . Bethseda took a piece of the pie in liscensing IP even though their a parent company. ZOS i do not see making another game for quite sometime they are just trying to keep their cash cow going right now. Corporate americas has their sights set on the FPS e sport community now . they will go over their and F@#$%^ the lights out of that gaming genre because thats where the easy money is so MMOs may recover under crowd fund studios.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

They don't anticipate this game to be a "forever" game. They have come out on more than one occasion and said as much.

I sincerely believe that the days of the decades long MMO as a genre are seriously numbered. The gaming culture is getting less and less enthusiastic about long term investments and commitments. You see posts about insta lvl 50 characters, account wide XXX, every day.

I think that they look to the short term simply because they know that there is no long term. I also believe that is why you see so few GOOD MMOs in the pipeline. It's just not as good of a long term investment for a business now.

Honestly, I can't believe that it has had as much staying power as it does.

Yes the glory days for MMO are gone.
You will not get an hype like WOW at its peak again.
Does not make it dead as an business model, ESO is doing very well financial, one of the most revenue generating games on steam and steam is an minor platform.

People are short term because they want it all now, and this is the obvious trap who has killed lots of MMO as its tempting to go P2W.

One issue with ESO is that they are pretty slow on QoL stuff.
Take housing, its the place i would go hard in. Pay for more inventory slots is an obvious one.
Also more fun stuff.

Guild halls as in multiple owners would be easy.
Now go totally nuts, private arenas, 6v6 fights. Do the same with trial bosses you can configure.
This would obviously be idiotic expensive houses, that is because they are owned by guild or guild leader.

@Wifeaggro13 @nafensoriel I don't want to get into the weeds about the costs to make a game. It's expensive. But it's also not out of the realm of reality that ZOS can afford to do some upgrades and significantly strengthen game play in the existing game.

I still ask, and not to you, but to the studio: What is the future of ESO?

I don't mean to be redundant, but we can debate solves and potential reasons for issues all day long, but the real question still remains unanswered and none of us can answer that except for them. Outside of new content, what is the long term plan for this title? Can we expect improved performance and game upgrades as we move towards the launch of a new console?

@zaria yes, there are several factors and all should be considered; i don't think it's a lack of awareness on the customer side. Many of play these games have some baseline understanding of how an online game works. Also, you mention PC - but not all of that applies to console.... so what about that side of the equation?

@Ermiq it's true. There are issues that have existed in the entire lifespan of the game thus far with not even so much as a "we're aware of problems x, y, z and will continue to work towards fixing this."

There's a poll in the General Discussions that correlates to this topic very well, would users be willing to give up six months of new content in exchange for direct focus on optimizing the current game, and the overwhelming answer has been yes. Users would gladly sacrifice new content and take a pause on the evolution of the story and game to get more stability and reliable game play with the content we already have.

Guild Traders/Banks not displaying content. Wayshrine freezes. UI errors/crashes. Countless bugs in most dungeons/trials. Freezing when reading writ/bounty boards. Non-responsive firing of controls in combat. <<These all make this game increasingly less enjoyable to play.

I applaud the studio for a beautifully written game with stellar lore, storyline... all that is great, but I can't enjoy it if I can't play the game free of technical problems.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

No it does not take 150 million bucks to make a AAA mmo. It takes about 16 mil to produce market and release. When greedy corporation star handing out bonuses. Charging development teams to market IPs they created and demand 3 x the developer cost before the creators can get paid backend money. The bloat gets massive just look at bioware not one person that had worked their or built that company exist anymore . They stole the company the IP and exploited a mediocre game of the IP alone. Eso is a cash grab

16 million doesnt even cover the building rental or developers.
7 years x 50 x 100k is 35 million. That assumes that only 1/5th of ZOS is actually a developer.
Building costs are usually between 1000-5000 a square foot before you consider putting anything INTO that building.
Software licences etc for all the tech you need again spiral into millions. You cant just pirate 3DS or Word.
Gods if you think a game the size of ESO can be made with 16 million I want to see your detailed business plan. I seriously will fund it if it's remotely in the realm of reality just so i can rip off all your great ideas in streamlining production.
/edit Whoops I had developer budget at 245! an eyeballed total project budget not just salary!

Thehartclan wrote:

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

I neglected to actually answer this. Sorry about that.
9 million a month isn't actually all that much when you consider what a studio of 250(the size of ZOS) costs to run.
From the above quote, you can see that just 50 developers alone would cost in excess of 500k/month on salary alone. This doesn't cover insurance, benefits, etc. If you add in all the support staff, licencing, building costs etc.. you aren't making anywhere near 9 million /m. Also bear in mind that with software development money is "boom and bust". Just because they make 9 million /month NOW doesnt mean they made 9 million a month aggregated. Remember for over 7 years ZOS had zero income and all expenses. Debt reimbursement isn't fun on the bottom line.

Historical data partner rift cost 10 million. Wow about the same. EQ 2 was about 14. Those massive inflated budgets started with EA . Zos took a 300 million dollar loan to start the studio. But that was for multiple games to build not just ESO.

Holy crap man, you do realize those budgets were based on titles from the late 1990s right? Software went through a few evolutions since then as well as the hardware that powers them. ESO was produced in the post 2000 software world. Salaries alone have SKYROCKETED since then as have operating costs. EA had nothing to do with increased budgets. Increased art assets is more to blame.

Seriously this is like saying a modern civic should cost as much as a civic from 1980.

Lol rift was developed in 2011 lol and game grunts salary went up by 11% over last 10 years . That's. 1.1 % COL in rease. the market is saturated. With millenials and the Ba in computer sciences making 60k a year . Terrance gw2 of all cos under 20 mil where the money went was purchasing studios and absorbing them and cannibalizing IPs

Umm, no. Rift was released in 2011, but it was developed before that for years. I can't even try to find out when they have started the development of it...

Thehartclan wrote: »

@Wifeaggro13 @nafensoriel I don't want to get into the weeds about the costs to make a game. It's expensive. But it's also not out of the realm of reality that ZOS can afford to do some upgrades and significantly strengthen game play in the existing game.

I still ask, and not to you, but to the studio: What is the future of ESO?

I don't mean to be redundant, but we can debate solves and potential reasons for issues all day long, but the real question still remains unanswered and none of us can answer that except for them. Outside of new content, what is the long term plan for this title? Can we expect improved performance and game upgrades as we move towards the launch of a new console?

@zaria yes, there are several factors and all should be considered; i don't think it's a lack of awareness on the customer side. Many of play these games have some baseline understanding of how an online game works. Also, you mention PC - but not all of that applies to console.... so what about that side of the equation?

understood i was not trying to derail. but here is my opinion in the future. I think the team has realized they went to far down a path of single player online RPG. they got rid of some leads and will likely change the game with some easy gentle patches towards a more MMO feel the game will change moderately over 4 or five patches. the will likely give some quality of life changes making it easier for the solo guy to do dungeons solo with little reward. i suspect the CP system will go through a major over haul and be completely revamped or expanded upon. they have finally seen its a nun sustainable system to try to make Alternate advancment flat. this is where the major changes will come that will affect the current game play moderately. I do not think you will ever see another class past necromancer. if they were smart they would try to find away to make this game in its evolution a multi class system.

Thehartclan wrote: »

@zaria yes, there are several factors and all should be considered; i don't think it's a lack of awareness on the customer side. Many of play these games have some baseline understanding of how an online game works. Also, you mention PC - but not all of that applies to console.... so what about that side of the equation?

Consoles should be easier to handle as hardware is equal, Simply set graphic different, mostly on how particle effects are handled, with 50+ AoE things tend to blend
In fact I would focus on consoles as its an easier environment and more of an problem here as I understand.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Done arguing with you rift built there own engine and has best dynamic content it broke molds it still function better then eso.Rifts still function far better and they are far more intersting then a dark anchor the soul system at the time was by far the most progressive class system . Rift did not age well and was poorly managed after Hartsman left. ESO did break the mold with Cyrodil though i will say even though performance is crap the theories and the design is awesome . PVP just does no make them as much money as the churn base PVE player. ESO needs to evolve or fade of into the sunset people will not stick around playing the same flat game with nothing new but new zone and new sets , people simply wont buy it.

Bahahahaha Rift is a modified gamebryo(barely at that). Rift didn't age well because they built it on a platform that was, I repeat, from the late 1990s. This is particularly hilarious to me after watching you go on a rant about FO76.

All this complaining about bugs in an MMO is hypocritical though. Name one that doesn't have a laundry list of long-standing bugs. Bugs are part of MMOs and no you won't get cosmetic bugs fixed all that often because they are COSMETIC. You playing with your balls while opening the crown store doesn't break anything or prevent anyone from playing. It's safe to ignore and so is ignored. Additionally for all you know its an animation issue that would cost an absurd sum to fix for a cosmetic issue. Do you want absurd spent on new content or antiballscratching fixes?