The future of ESO?

Thehartclan

Hello fellow wanderers of Tamriel! Apologies in advance if this gets a little lengthy, but I've been pondering for some time now the overall lifespan and future of the Elder Scrolls Online and have some thoughts and questions that maybe ZOS will take the time to respond to, although from my experiences over the years I will not hold my breath.

The game is now several years old and new content continues to spill from the Zenimax studio which is always exciting and welcomed, but at what cost does this new content bring? The base game alone still suffers incredibly with day to day game-play: load screens have been heinous, several wayshrines are now prone to complete game freezes, response time for combat suffer regularly for myself and others and my latest personal bug is if I read a bounty/writ board or talk to a daily quest giver NPC I get instantly stuck for about 2-3 seconds. Beyond that trials/dungeons riddled with bugs (if anyone hasn't seen the mountain of posts in EU for specific trial bugs, you should take a look - it's insane). While I appreciate new content, I have to step back and acknowledge that as a player of several years now I haven't even scratched the surface of the current content range: I'm nearing 50% completion of all in-game achievements, most base game - I've hardly touched many of the smaller DLC packages yet. And i'd rather have an enhanced and improved experience with the current content than getting new content as i'm sure many people feel. Having seen the explosion in the EU server this week with the game being nearly unplayable for days - going on weeks - it makes me wonder if the same future awaits the NA server.

ZOS is a business - their goal is to make money. I get that, I own a business myself. That said, a company that has a reputation for delivering stellar games and game-play experiences should strive for a better balance of new vs. old maintenance. I find myself becoming more and more disinterested in playing as the game gets clunkier and clunkier with every new patch and release with what appears to be little to no effort to fix and improve upon the existing game. Point and case: Wayrest Sewer 1 - we've all gotten stuck at that one door. This is one of the oldest/original dungeons in the game and it STILL hasn't been fixed. I've started to notice a growing problem with the performance of ESO game-play as more content is released. The game continues to suffer. At some point I fear the EU issue will be a reality for the NA players - and frankly I see this potentially driving a customer base away as newer online games of this nature come about. Not only is the game-play becoming insufferable to the point of considering an exit - the apparent money hungry demeanor we see in game is also off-putting - crown exclusive homes are insanely priced and for what? To own a home with little worthwhile features and a furniture cap that is useless for the scale of the homes?

Housing is a huge letdown. I'm obsessed with housing - truly, I probably spend more time playing with housing than anything else, but it's severely lacking. I'm surprised by the lack of effort on ZOS part to further develop and enhance this area of the game considering how lucrative it must be. I don't need to list out what's wrong or missing here though - the forums are filled with hundreds of these posts, none of which ZOS seems to pay any attention to. I spend hours reading through posts and never see any response from developers regarding any of the requests/concerns/feedback re: housing. It's disheartening and again further drives a wedge between the developer and it's players. When people pay good money (and let's face it, ESO is not a cheap game/hobby by any stretch) you expect more than what we currently have/get from the studio.

Then there's the technical side of all of this: many of these items could easily be addressed if they upgraded their patchwork engine that's based in the 90s. The base engine was developed in 1999 from what I've researched and consists of a multitude of patches and modifications to keep it running on today's more modern platform. While the optimist in me hopes that they do a major revamp and upgrade in preparation for PS5, part of me severely doubts that will happen - and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same old game completely fall short when the new console comes out. Seeing where other games are and are headed with newer engines is starting to make playing ESO feel like a vintage game from when I was a kid. Bugs, kinks, furniture caps - these are all things that are STUPID easy to fix with a newer and more relevant engine platform - but because of how this game is currently structured it isn't easy and as such ZOS doesn't seem bother.

I really love The Elder Scrolls Online - but I'm falling out of love as the game continues to feel behind the rest of the gaming world. I'm also losing love because it feels like the developers don't really care so long as they're turning a profit. Albeit I left the world of WoW many years ago - I will give Blizzard massive props for having a similar style game last as long as it as and it's because they take care of their game. They upgrade things, they fix things and they put just as much effort into that as they do new content - they also seem better at responding and listening to their customer/fan base.

So what is the future of ESO? With the way things have gone and are progressing - does this game just run the bare minimum until it implodes on itself? Does it go until it's fan base gets so tired of the above mentioned and walk away? I certainly hope the future is brighter than what it seems it may be, for me personally simply because of the amount of time AND money I've sunk into this game. I want to feel like i'm really getting my monies worth, and sadly that just isn't the case. I keep playing though hoping and waiting for the studio to get with the program, but I know I am nearing a point where I'm ready to call it and just walk away from the hundreds I've spent and call it a loss.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I implore you to take the time to read this and maybe even leave a response, it'd be nice to finally hear from the studio about the games performance overall and what plans (if any) your team has for bringing ESO into the future rather than it dissipating into a distant thought of the past.

I'd like to add this is not a platform for demands or debates between users about the game. This is simply an attempt to get some insight from the studio regarding the future of the game. Please be mindful of that if adding the conversation as this is a broad strokes discussion and not focused on any specific issues or features of ESO.

Wifeaggro13

Thehartclan wrote: »

Hello fellow wanderers of Tamriel! Apologies in advance if this gets a little lengthy, but i've been pondering for some time now the overall lifespan and future of the Elder Scrolls Online and have some thoughts and questions that maybe ZOS will take the time to respond to, although from my experiences over the years I will not hold my breath.

The game is now several years old and new content continues to spill from the Zenimax studio which is always exciting and welcomed, but at what cost does this new content bring? The base game alone still suffers incredibly with day to day gameplay: load screens have been heinous, several wayshrines are now prone to complete game freezes, response time for combat suffer regularly for myself and others My latest personal bug is if I read a bounty/writ board or talk to a daily quest giver NPC I get instantly stuck for about 2-3 seconds. Beyond that trials/dungeons riddled with bugs (if anyone hasn't seen the mountain of posts in EU for specific trial bugs, you should take a look - it's insane). While I appreciate new content, I have to step back and acknowledge that as a player of several years now I haven't even scratched the surface of the current content range: I'm nearing 50% completion of all in-game achievements, most base game - I've hardly touched many of the smaller DLC packages yet. And i'd rather have an enhanced and improved experience with the current content than getting new content as i'm sure many people feel. Having seen the explosion in the EU server this week with the game being nearly unplayable for days - going on weeks - it makes me wonder if the same future awaits the NA server.

ZOS is a business - their goal is to make money. I get that, I own a business myself. That said, a company that has a reputation for delivering stellar games and gameplay experiences should strive for a better balance of new vs. old maintenance. I find myself becoming more and more disinterested in playing as the game gets clunkier and clunkier with every new patch and release with what appears to be little to no effort to fix and improve upon the existing game. Point and case: Wayrest Sewer 1 - we've all gotten stuck at that one door. This is one of the oldest/original dungeons in the game and it STILL hasn't been fixed. I've started to notice a growing problem with the performance of ESO gameplay as more content is released. The game continues to suffer. At some point I fear the EU issue will be a reality for the NA players - and frankly I see this potentially driving a customer base away as newer online games of this nature come about. Not only is the gameplay becoming insufferable to the point of considering an exit - the apparent money hungry demeanor we see in game is also offputting - crown exclusive homes are insanely priced and for what? To own a home with little worthwhile features and a furniture cap that is useless for the scale of the homes?

Housing is a huge letdown. I'm obsessed with housing - truly, I probably spend more time playing with housing than anything else, but it's severely lacking. I'm surprised by the lack of effort on ZOS part to further develop and enhance this area of the game considering how lucrative it must be. I don't need to list out what's wrong or missing here though - the forums are filled with hundreds of these posts, none of which ZOS seems to pay any attention to. I spend hours reading through posts and never see any response from developers regarding any of the requests/concerns/feedback re: housing. It's disheartening and again further drives a wedge between the developer and it's players. When people pay good money (and let's face it, ESO is not a cheap game/hobby by any stretch) you expect more than what we currently have/get from the studio.

Then there's the technical side of all of this: many of these items could easily be addressed if they upgraded their patchwork engine that's based in the 90s. The base engine was developed in 1999 from what i've researched and consists of a multitude of patches and modifications to keep it running on today's more modern platform. While the optimist in me hopes that they do a major revamp and upgrade in preparation for PS5, part of me severely doubts that will happen - and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same old game completely fall short when the new console comes out. Seeing where other games are and are headed with newer engines is starting to make playing ESO feel like a vintage game from when I was a kid. Bugs, kinks, furniture caps - these are all things that are STUPID easy to fix with a newer and more relevant engine platform - but because of how this game is currently structured it isn't easy and as such ZOS doesn't seem bother.

I really love The Elder Scrolls Online - but I'm falling out of love as the game continues to feel behind the rest of the gaming world. I'm also losing love because it feels like the developers don't really care so long as they're turning a profit. Albeit I left the world of WoW many years ago - I will give Blizzard massive props for having a similar style game last as long as it as and it's because they take care of their game. They upgrade things, they fix things and they put just as much effort into that as they do new content - they also seem better at responding and listening to their customer/fan base.

So what is the future of ESO? With the way things have gone and are progressing - does this game just run the bare minimum until it implodes on itself? Does it go until it's fanbase gets so tired of the above mentioned and walk away? I certainly hope the future is brighter than what it seems it may be, for me personally simply because of the amount of time AND money i've sunk into this game. I want to feel like i'm really getting my monies worth, and sadly that just isn't the case. I keep playing though hoping and waiting for the studio to get with the program, but I know I am nearing a point where I'm ready to call it and just walk away from the hundreds i've spent and call it a loss.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I implore you to take the time to read this and maybe even leave a response, it'd be nice to finally hear from the studio about the games performance overall and what plans (if any) your team has for bringing ESO into the future rather than it dissipating into a distant thought of the past.

what we have here is a cash grab. they made a very big game with lots of things to buy. it is just not a deep evolving game . think of it as a massive ocean that is waste deep in every direction for miles and miles. this is the fastest ive ever seen a MMO go for a cash grab even EQ 2 kept evolving their game every single content addition for 8 years untill they went full cash grab.Hell even rift game out more content for free in two years then ESO charged for in 4

Thehartclan

what we have here is a cash grab. they made a very big game with lots of things to buy. it is just not a deep evolving game . think of it as a massive ocean that is waste deep in every direction for miles and miles. this is the fastest ive ever seen a MMO go for a cash grab even EQ 2 kept evolving their game every single content addition for 8 years untill they went full cash grab.Hell even rift game out more content for free in two years then ESO charged for in 4

That's part of my point @Wifeaggro13 and I don't know about you, but I expect more from a game and studio that makes their single player games SO MUCH BETTER! The Elder Scrolls/Skyrim games are incredible, so why the lack with this subsidiary? Cash flow for a mediocre product can't be sustained forever. So thus the question: What is the future of ESO?

Juju_beans

it's a game to play to pass the time and have some fun.
Play it and when it becomes "unfun" to play then find a new game.

I was a wow subscriber for near 14 years. Loved the game up until Legion.
The game had changed and morphed over the years. Eventually I lost interest as the game veered from what I liked to do..quest/professions/other casual things and became more raid oriented. Not my cup of tea so I left.

It's not my business to run and determine content. I just play (and pay) until I don't find fun in the game and then go find another game to take up my time.

ABuster

Post is so edgy... first time that I hope ZOS won't reply

Thehartclan

@Juju_beans Of course, but shouldn't customers be given a better product when paying as much as we pay to play? I don't disagree with you about playing a game because it's fun, but I shouldn't have to find myself not having fun because of things that have NOTHING to do with the game itself. I'm just as enamored with the ESO lore, stories, exploring as I was day 1. My lack of fun is due to technical issues that should be a non-issue. I can bet you would not have stayed with WoW for that long had the game under performed on a daily basis and had the multitude of issues that plague ESO. That's my point. It's a huge disappointment as a fan of this game and it's parent series to be losing a love and passion for the game because of bugs/errors/lack of features that are easy to add with some upgrades. I would hope the studio would give ESO as much love as they do all their single player games, but they don't seem to. And thus again: What is the future of ESO? Not just for me, but for everyone.

susmitds

This engine was custom built based on Hero Engine in 2013. It is one of the newest MMO engines. I think you are confusing it with Creation Engine of single player TES titles, of which this engine only uses certain parts.

Thehartclan

@ABuster I'm not sure how my post is edgy.... there were no harsh undertones, no blatant attacks towards anyone, no passive aggressive commentary......I don't think it was anything but thoughtful and inquisitive. I have no problem asking questions to a company I shell out money to on a regular basis. Sorry you didn't find any value in my post? If you don't like it, don't reply?

Thehartclan

susmitds wrote: »

This engine was custom built based on Hero Engine in 2013. It is one of the newest MMO engines. I think you are confusing it with Creation Engine of single player TES titles, of which this engine only uses certain parts.

Perhaps; I'm not well-educated in the technical side of things, I just pick up bits and pieces from articles/forums. That said, if it's still cobbled in with elements from the ancient CE, does that not beg the question would ESO run smoother on a completely non-CE based platform? And in terms of tech, 2013 seems old. Especially when ESO didn't even come out until 2014, so it was running on an older engine from jump.

jaedhub14_ESO

Thehartclan wrote: »

Hello fellow wanderers of Tamriel! Apologies in advance if this gets a little lengthy, but I've been pondering for some time now the overall lifespan and future of the Elder Scrolls Online and have some thoughts and questions that maybe ZOS will take the time to respond to, although from my experiences over the years I will not hold my breath.

The game is now several years old and new content continues to spill from the Zenimax studio which is always exciting and welcomed, but at what cost does this new content bring? The base game alone still suffers incredibly with day to day game-play: load screens have been heinous, several wayshrines are now prone to complete game freezes, response time for combat suffer regularly for myself and others and my latest personal bug is if I read a bounty/writ board or talk to a daily quest giver NPC I get instantly stuck for about 2-3 seconds. Beyond that trials/dungeons riddled with bugs (if anyone hasn't seen the mountain of posts in EU for specific trial bugs, you should take a look - it's insane). While I appreciate new content, I have to step back and acknowledge that as a player of several years now I haven't even scratched the surface of the current content range: I'm nearing 50% completion of all in-game achievements, most base game - I've hardly touched many of the smaller DLC packages yet. And i'd rather have an enhanced and improved experience with the current content than getting new content as i'm sure many people feel. Having seen the explosion in the EU server this week with the game being nearly unplayable for days - going on weeks - it makes me wonder if the same future awaits the NA server.

ZOS is a business - their goal is to make money. I get that, I own a business myself. That said, a company that has a reputation for delivering stellar games and game-play experiences should strive for a better balance of new vs. old maintenance. I find myself becoming more and more disinterested in playing as the game gets clunkier and clunkier with every new patch and release with what appears to be little to no effort to fix and improve upon the existing game. Point and case: Wayrest Sewer 1 - we've all gotten stuck at that one door. This is one of the oldest/original dungeons in the game and it STILL hasn't been fixed. I've started to notice a growing problem with the performance of ESO game-play as more content is released. The game continues to suffer. At some point I fear the EU issue will be a reality for the NA players - and frankly I see this potentially driving a customer base away as newer online games of this nature come about. Not only is the game-play becoming insufferable to the point of considering an exit - the apparent money hungry demeanor we see in game is also off-putting - crown exclusive homes are insanely priced and for what? To own a home with little worthwhile features and a furniture cap that is useless for the scale of the homes?

Housing is a huge letdown. I'm obsessed with housing - truly, I probably spend more time playing with housing than anything else, but it's severely lacking. I'm surprised by the lack of effort on ZOS part to further develop and enhance this area of the game considering how lucrative it must be. I don't need to list out what's wrong or missing here though - the forums are filled with hundreds of these posts, none of which ZOS seems to pay any attention to. I spend hours reading through posts and never see any response from developers regarding any of the requests/concerns/feedback re: housing. It's disheartening and again further drives a wedge between the developer and it's players. When people pay good money (and let's face it, ESO is not a cheap game/hobby by any stretch) you expect more than what we currently have/get from the studio.

Then there's the technical side of all of this: many of these items could easily be addressed if they upgraded their patchwork engine that's based in the 90s. The base engine was developed in 1999 from what I've researched and consists of a multitude of patches and modifications to keep it running on today's more modern platform. While the optimist in me hopes that they do a major revamp and upgrade in preparation for PS5, part of me severely doubts that will happen - and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same old game completely fall short when the new console comes out. Seeing where other games are and are headed with newer engines is starting to make playing ESO feel like a vintage game from when I was a kid. Bugs, kinks, furniture caps - these are all things that are STUPID easy to fix with a newer and more relevant engine platform - but because of how this game is currently structured it isn't easy and as such ZOS doesn't seem bother.

I really love The Elder Scrolls Online - but I'm falling out of love as the game continues to feel behind the rest of the gaming world. I'm also losing love because it feels like the developers don't really care so long as they're turning a profit. Albeit I left the world of WoW many years ago - I will give Blizzard massive props for having a similar style game last as long as it as and it's because they take care of their game. They upgrade things, they fix things and they put just as much effort into that as they do new content - they also seem better at responding and listening to their customer/fan base.

So what is the future of ESO? With the way things have gone and are progressing - does this game just run the bare minimum until it implodes on itself? Does it go until it's fan base gets so tired of the above mentioned and walk away? I certainly hope the future is brighter than what it seems it may be, for me personally simply because of the amount of time AND money I've sunk into this game. I want to feel like i'm really getting my monies worth, and sadly that just isn't the case. I keep playing though hoping and waiting for the studio to get with the program, but I know I am nearing a point where I'm ready to call it and just walk away from the hundreds I've spent and call it a loss.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I implore you to take the time to read this and maybe even leave a response, it'd be nice to finally hear from the studio about the games performance overall and what plans (if any) your team has for bringing ESO into the future rather than it dissipating into a distant thought of the past.

I'd like to add this is not a platform for demands or debates between users about the game. This is simply an attempt to get some insight from the studio regarding the future of the game. Please be mindful of that if adding the conversation as this is a broad strokes discussion and not focused on any specific issues or features of ESO.

I agree and I am behind you on this Thehartclan, they need to address these growing issues with the game, I want to continue playing it but I can't imagine all of the bugs that many of our EU brothers and sisters have gone through in the recent months. -Kakotan

Juju_beans

Thehartclan wrote: »

@Juju_beans Of course, but shouldn't customers be given a better product when paying as much as we pay to play? I don't disagree with you about playing a game because it's fun, but I shouldn't have to find myself not having fun because of things that have NOTHING to do with the game itself. I'm just as enamored with the ESO lore, stories, exploring as I was day 1. My lack of fun is due to technical issues that should be a non-issue. I can bet you would not have stayed with WoW for that long had the game under performed on a daily basis and had the multitude of issues that plague ESO. That's my point. It's a huge disappointment as a fan of this game and it's parent series to be losing a love and passion for the game because of bugs/errors/lack of features that are easy to add with some upgrades. I would hope the studio would give ESO as much love as they do all their single player games, but they don't seem to. And thus again: What is the future of ESO? Not just for me, but for everyone.

When I subbed to wow my $15 was just to access the server to play. I got nothing else.
ESO+ is by far a better deal for me.

Oh I did stay with wow over the long haul and all their technical problems. It took them 14 years to get smooth transitions.
In the early years it was quite common for the login boss to rule and not let any players into the game for days and crashes and rollbacks and lots of other technical things. Because the game had a mandated sub we did get compensated for that with game time added to our subs.

Even though ESO is years old I still consider it in the early stages, similar to wow. IMHO ESO has a better handle on things.

Sixsixsix161

Hope we're not going down the same road as Rift did.

Woke up one morning last October and discovered that Trion Worlds (Rift, Defiance, and more) was out of business and had been sold to a German gaming company named Gamigo.

Here we are almost mid-February, and they still are struggling to get things under control.

Totally unexpected, especially since Trion had just a few weeks earlier purchased all the equipment belonging to another gaming company that went out of business.

Can still play Rift, but it's almost dead, players have, and continue, to leave, and Gamigo is not providing a lot of updates as to what their plans are.

Hope ESO is not going there.

6

Mettaricana

Trion has always been a bare minimum to keep running company though gamigo is one of the worst ones out there eso bout to launch their biggest chain of updates since one tamrial

Kel

ABuster wrote: »

Post is so edgy... first time that I hope ZOS won't reply

What's edgy about asking an honest question?

Wifeaggro13

Thehartclan wrote: »

what we have here is a cash grab. they made a very big game with lots of things to buy. it is just not a deep evolving game . think of it as a massive ocean that is waste deep in every direction for miles and miles. this is the fastest ive ever seen a MMO go for a cash grab even EQ 2 kept evolving their game every single content addition for 8 years untill they went full cash grab.Hell even rift game out more content for free in two years then ESO charged for in 4

That's part of my point @Wifeaggro13 and I don't know about you, but I expect more from a game and studio that makes their single player games SO MUCH BETTER! The Elder Scrolls/Skyrim games are incredible, so why the lack with this subsidiary? Cash flow for a mediocre product can't be sustained forever. So thus the question: What is the future of ESO?

simple answer . corporate direction of the genre. unfortunately they are not making games to play they are making them to make as much money in as short as time as possible

ChaoticWings3

I really love this game and love exploring the lore and story lines ever since ES: Oblvion released I have been taking the time sometimes to read literally every bit of lore out there. But I have to admit there are some things that do need to be addressed since they cause an immersion breaking experience.

I would like to say that I may not encounter anything game breaking on a daily basis but there were times that I got rather frustrated with the game.

One of my least favorite parts is when searching for a specific item or items from guild traders and then having the "retrieving items" be on screen for what feels like thirty minutes. Sometimes the only way I have been able to fix it is to log out and log back in. Sometimes this bug happens with traders that don't even have anything in that category.

This bug seems to occur every time I try to search for items very quickly in succession. I'm not sure what would be causing it but I have been having this issue since day one.

I've only really experience the way shrine crashes rarely so hopefully those are getting resolved as they prop up. Usually it fixes itself once a maintenance happens however if there are characters that get caught in them I would say you may want to have a catch if it occurs (I think its implemented in NA to prevent a log in issue but not sure). I had a wayshrine freeze when I warped, closed out of the game, and was sent to the original location before I warped. It could be applied further to include bug breaks after a dungeon run like choosing a wayshrine that is in the alliance of said character that is stable if the original location you came from is freezing. But I think I'm a little bit more hopeful on this one at least from what I'm seeing. Hopefully there is a catch in place and I wasn't just lucky but hopefully ZOS understands that the freeze bug is the worst bug to have. The EU situation though is defiantly problematic and needs to be addressed since at the moment that seems to be a bug that is a bit more active.

The older dungeons defiantly need some work. The door in wayrest sewers door and that weird hit box for activation is one but I also have had issues with cradle of shadows velidreth since sometimes the boss will do the attack where you can't move and she'll climb to the ceiling. At the end we have to dodge an attack to avoid large dmg (or in some cases die). Sometimes when that attack happens some of the group will see her go up while others will see her stay on the ground. Trying to go for the helm on vet was a pain since if that happened I would have to guess through timing of previous iterations in order to avoid big dmg.

If ZOS does read I hope they understand that it is coming from a place of heart. I don't want to leave the game because of bugs that take me out of the experience or have my character locked out because I warped to the wrong location (really hoping on that EU situation). Even if new ones come up. Fixing some of the older ones will really help improve relations with the player base.

Thehartclan

@Juju_beans I get that and I do see some big Pros in ESO over WoW; that said, WoW as a whole was a lot less money. Between cost of games, ESO plus, crowsn.... i've spent far more playing ESO than I ever did in WoW. And i firmly believe in getting what you pay for. Like I said, this isn't intended as an attack on the game, rather a look to the developer to provide some broad insight into overall gameplay and plans for the game long term.

@Sixsixsix161 @Mettaricana I don't know that game to comment, but I think the chances of the game going off into the sunset exist, but for different reasons. Zenimax isn't going anywhere so there shouldn't be fear of the game being bought up and dying. My fear lies more in maintaining and growing the current game over an extended period. A game can only handle so many hot-fix patches before it eventually shutters and slumps. I'm hoping to see some major game upgrades in the near future, especially again noting that with the PS5 on the horizon there seems no reason NOT to do a major overhaul and bring the game up to it's full potential.

Yes bugs happen; but at one point does a bug become just a regular feature of the game? I'd certainly say "unusually long load time" is no longer unusual and long load screens have become the norm. The wayrest sewer door that's bugged, also no longer a bug and just a quirky feature of the dungeon - but it doesn't have to and shouldn't be.

@ChaoticWings3 I share the same hope for the game as you. I think there is a lot of untapped potential for the online Elder Scrolls experience, and while I don't disagree with @Wifeaggro13 stating it's driven by profit, there's more profit to tap from the business side with a stronger game platform. Point and case: I'd easily have spent hundreds to buy the Grotto or the Princely Dawnlight Palace IF the furniture cap weren't stunted at a mere 700 items. Those spaces are MASSIVE. And I watch hundreds of housing videos and I have yet to see anything that truly WOWED me with the larger homes because it's virtually impossible to do so with the furniture cap being what it is. Again, beyond limited features in housing - my biggest disappointment is just the overall game play experience. I'm stunted in my DPS because of combat response issues that only originate when playing this particular game. Trials suffer because chat constantly breaks and running veteran trials with no voice chat is unnecessarily difficult, especially when learning mechanics. Chaotic is spot on: the game issues remove the immersive qualities that we all expect from the series.

nafensoriel

Thehartclan wrote: »

Then there's the technical side of all of this: many of these items could easily be addressed if they upgraded their patchwork engine that's based in the 90s. The base engine was developed in 1999 from what I've researched and consists of a multitude of patches and modifications to keep it running on today's more modern platform. While the optimist in me hopes that they do a major revamp and upgrade in preparation for PS5, part of me severely doubts that will happen - and I wouldn't be surprised to see the same old game completely fall short when the new console comes out. Seeing where other games are and are headed with newer engines is starting to make playing ESO feel like a vintage game from when I was a kid. Bugs, kinks, furniture caps - these are all things that are STUPID easy to fix with a newer and more relevant engine platform - but because of how this game is currently structured it isn't easy and as such ZOS doesn't seem bother.

CE/Gamebryo/Netimmerse is one year younger than Unreal Engine. ESO Doesn't use either.
The newer engines won't do anything because you mistake art with an engine. Upgrading ALL the art in ESO.. well do you have a few tens of millions of dollars sitting around? Oh and a few years? And a time machine?

"Stupid easy to fix" kinda shows you have exactly no clue what you are talking about honestly. I don't mean to be combative but nothing is "stupid easy to fix" with a game as large as ESO. Poke one bug. Cross it off. Three more bugs on the report!

Wifeaggro13

Mettaricana wrote: »

Trion has always been a bare minimum to keep running company though gamigo is one of the worst ones out there eso bout to launch their biggest chain of updates since one tamrial

Not true in 2010 when rift launched and it was their only game. It was very generous with content. When Scott Hartman left content slowed and more focus went into money schemes and trying to release garbage games and publish ports. When he came back trion had been gutted and looted.in all honesty ESO problem is its quality and vision not size or frequency of updates. The game does not evolve it keeps producing the same update just different skins since 2016

Thehartclan

@nafensoriel it's all in context. No, fixing a game of this scale is not "an easy fix" but if the hard work is done, a lot of the features and issues that are constants would be easy to address with a bigger, more difficult fix implemented.

And you're absolutely right, one bug down three more to address. That's the point. Address them. Don't ignore them. They are constantly ignored. I spend hours reading patch notes and patch updates only to be disappointed that a TON of broken/bugged content is ignored. Again, why is some of the original base game content STILL BUGGED? Instead of spending a ton of time and resources firing out new content, why not spend just as much time fixing the existing content?

I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to hardware, programming, coding... no. But I do know that the studio has the ability to take on these challenges, and that's the point of the discussion. Be less worried about me calling something an easy fix or not because it's irrelevant if it's easy to fix. It should be fixed, easy or hard. Period.

Thehartclan

@nafensoriel and no it doesn't take tens of millions of dollars to do. It takes time and effort. Plenty of small studios generate smashing content with little money. So an argument about money seems like a miss on the topic. And I can also assure you that there's money there to upgrade and improve the game.

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

And Engine extends beyond art. It also impacts gameplay capabilities. So now I think maybe you know as much as I on this topic, not to be combative :P

Thehartclan

@Wifeaggro13 BINGO! Quality, or lack thereof. And at what point does that drive the customer base away completely or cause the game to become so janky that is implodes? EU servers....

nafensoriel

Thehartclan wrote: »

@nafensoriel it's all in context. No, fixing a game of this scale is not "an easy fix" but if the hard work is done, a lot of the features and issues that are constants would be easy to address with a bigger, more difficult fix implemented.

And you're absolutely right, one bug down three more to address. That's the point. Address them. Don't ignore them. They are constantly ignored. I spend hours reading patch notes and patch updates only to be disappointed that a TON of broken/bugged content is ignored. Again, why is some of the original base game content STILL BUGGED? Instead of spending a ton of time and resources firing out new content, why not spend just as much time fixing the existing content?

I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to hardware, programming, coding... no. But I do know that the studio has the ability to take on these challenges, and that's the point of the discussion. Be less worried about me calling something an easy fix or not because it's irrelevant if it's easy to fix. It should be fixed, easy or hard. Period.

Actually, if you suddenly did hypothetically change an engine you actually make fixing bugs harder not easier for your development team because you suddenly took all their experience and tossed a significant chunk of it down the drain. It would be like having a woodworker who exclusively used hand tools suddenly being given computerized tools, router tables, and CNC machines. Yes, they can technically do "better" work but it will take them YEARS to give the same productivity per hour they used to due to unfamiliar tools and having to completely retrain.

Addressing a bug is also not always the best choice of action. What if the bug isn't actually as simple as a typo? What if there is exactly zero logical reason for that effect to occur and you've already thrown hundreds of hours into trying to figure out what part of the massive haystack of your game's code is causing it? Do you keep hunting? Do you cut your losses and move on to bugs you might actually be able to solve?
Heck, this is even before you ask "does this bug damage playability of the game?". A bug that makes chairs clip the floor is not nearly as important as a bug that impacts money or actual gameplay.
In reality, if a bugs "hard" to fix you don't fix it. Does ford recall and rebuild an entire car line because the cup holder is in a terrible position? No. They ignore it and go onto the next model. This is a reality because sometimes the solution costs more than the product.

In short, what I'm saying is most of what you want to be addressed is being addressed. Why do I know this? Do I work for ZOS? No. I know it because I've yet to meet all that many developers who don't absolutely love their product and legitimately want to make a "cool game". They know about the problems of their game. They really do. They also know better than a player what it takes to fix those problems. The trouble is, again, the business part. No game company has ever "been saved" by fixing bugs exclusively. Nor has any company ever actually made all that much money from a rebrand 5 years in. Hell 5 years isn't even matching the development time it took to make ESO in the first place! Developers are not magicians. In ten years a rebrand might make sense.. today it really doesn't.

Wifeaggro13

Thehartclan wrote: »

@nafensoriel and no it doesn't take tens of millions of dollars to do. It takes time and effort. Plenty of small studios generate smashing content with little money. So an argument about money seems like a miss on the topic. And I can also assure you that there's money there to upgrade and improve the game.

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

And Engine extends beyond art. It also impacts gameplay capabilities. So now I think maybe you know as much as I on this topic, not to be combative :P

No it does not take 150 million bucks to make a AAA mmo. It takes about 16 mil to produce market and release. When greedy corporation star handing out bonuses. Charging development teams to market IPs they created and demand 3 x the developer cost before the creators can get paid backend money. The bloat gets massive just look at bioware not one person that had worked their or built that company exist anymore . They stole the company the IP and exploited a mediocre game of the IP alone. Eso is a cash grab

Bouldercleave

They don't anticipate this game to be a "forever" game. They have come out on more than one occasion and said as much.

I sincerely believe that the days of the decades long MMO as a genre are seriously numbered. The gaming culture is getting less and less enthusiastic about long term investments and commitments. You see posts about insta lvl 50 characters, account wide XXX, every day.

I think that they look to the short term simply because they know that there is no long term. I also believe that is why you see so few GOOD MMOs in the pipeline. It's just not as good of a long term investment for a business now.

Honestly, I can't believe that it has had as much staying power as it does.

Ogou

Thehartclan wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

This engine was custom built based on Hero Engine in 2013. It is one of the newest MMO engines. I think you are confusing it with Creation Engine of single player TES titles, of which this engine only uses certain parts.

Perhaps; I'm not well-educated in the technical side of things, I just pick up bits and pieces from articles/forums. That said, if it's still cobbled in with elements from the ancient CE, does that not beg the question would ESO run smoother on a completely non-CE based platform? And in terms of tech, 2013 seems old. Especially when ESO didn't even come out until 2014, so it was running on an older engine from jump.

I am pretty sure they are not using any element from the Creation Engine at all. You might be thinking about Fallout 76. Also, I think there's a basic misunderstanding of what a game engine is. It's not something you can add last minute before you launch a game. Besides, 2013 is really not that old for a game engine. I agree with you that there is a big performance problem and that ZOS needs to do something about it. I just don't think the solution is as "simple" (it's far from simple) as switching to another game engine.

Ermiq

@Thehartclan
Totally agree with all your statements. But I have to clear some things:
1. Seems like you think ESO is made by the same studio as Skyrim. Well, ESO is not a Todd Howard's game, it's not a Bethesda Game Studios game. Bethesda Game Studios (devs of single player TES games) and Zenimax Online (devs of ESO) are two different studios. Though they both are a part of Bethesda Softworks publishing company, but Bethesda Softworks also has Rage devs, Dishonored and Prey (2017) devs, and many other studios, and they don't actually do any development and support.
2. ESO engine is a completely different engine than Gamebryo/CreationEngine (TES3, TES4, TES5). They are not the same and they are not based at mutual platform.

Thehartclan

@Nafirian and I hope you're right and ZOS continues to strive to make this game better. In the interim though I see gradually worsening play experiences which is the frustration I and many share. I completely agree too with bug fixes - they only go so far. Sometimes it's easier to just start from scratch on certain pieces of content and try again.

The second part that i'd be curious about your thoughts though is features in the game i.e. interface upgrades, housing upgrades (better features, more flexibility) - the reason I mentioned the engine was because that's been the answer I've seen from several is the engine prohibits a lot of this such as how many assets a single area can handle before it crashes.

Obviously there needs to be a balance of new vs old and I guess that's where I'm stuck is I don't see the balance currently. I just see a constant push to get new stuff out the door with little acknowledgement of all the existing stuff that's lacking or suffering.

Appreciate the thoughtful response, it's nice to have a good discussion on here for once!!

nafensoriel

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

No it does not take 150 million bucks to make a AAA mmo. It takes about 16 mil to produce market and release. When greedy corporation star handing out bonuses. Charging development teams to market IPs they created and demand 3 x the developer cost before the creators can get paid backend money. The bloat gets massive just look at bioware not one person that had worked their or built that company exist anymore . They stole the company the IP and exploited a mediocre game of the IP alone. Eso is a cash grab

16 million doesnt even cover the building rental or developers.
7 years x 50 x 100k is 35 million. That assumes that only 1/5th of ZOS is actually a developer.
Building costs are usually between 1000-5000 a square foot before you consider putting anything INTO that building.
Software licences etc for all the tech you need again spiral into millions. You cant just pirate 3DS or Word.
Gods if you think a game the size of ESO can be made with 16 million I want to see your detailed business plan. I seriously will fund it if it's remotely in the realm of reality just so i can rip off all your great ideas in streamlining production.
/edit Whoops I had developer budget at 245! an eyeballed total project budget not just salary!

Thehartclan wrote:

Here's some quick math for fun: The ESO has over 3 million players across all platforms. Assume ONLY 20 percent of those pay for a monthly sub for ESO Plus.At 15 dollars a month, that's 9 MILLION dollars a month at 600,000 users subscribed. So to your point, if it's tens of millions of dollars, they should be able to cover that after only several months, no?

I neglected to actually answer this. Sorry about that.
9 million a month isn't actually all that much when you consider what a studio of 250(the size of ZOS) costs to run.
From the above quote, you can see that just 50 developers alone would cost in excess of 500k/month on salary alone. This doesn't cover insurance, benefits, etc. If you add in all the support staff, licencing, building costs etc.. you aren't making anywhere near 9 million /m. Also bear in mind that with software development money is "boom and bust". Just because they make 9 million /month NOW doesnt mean they made 9 million a month aggregated. Remember for over 7 years ZOS had zero income and all expenses. Debt reimbursement isn't fun on the bottom line.

Thehartclan

@Bouldercleave and that's my fear and something I find incredibly unfortunate and disheartening as a player.

@Ogou I realize that, and I know it's not that simple; It does seem like one of many areas of opportunity though thus the mention. No it's not old, but i bet there are things that could beef up performance on the engine side with a little bit of muscle and grease.

@Ermiq Good info - i was not fully understanding the ownership/relationship chain of the game. That said, I don't really care what studio does what so long as customers are getting an awesome, high-quality gaming experience worthy of the money they pay regularly. And the gameplay issues are getting worse and I for one am becoming more and more turned off by it.

Wifeaggro13

Ogou wrote: »

Thehartclan wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

This engine was custom built based on Hero Engine in 2013. It is one of the newest MMO engines. I think you are confusing it with Creation Engine of single player TES titles, of which this engine only uses certain parts.

Perhaps; I'm not well-educated in the technical side of things, I just pick up bits and pieces from articles/forums. That said, if it's still cobbled in with elements from the ancient CE, does that not beg the question would ESO run smoother on a completely non-CE based platform? And in terms of tech, 2013 seems old. Especially when ESO didn't even come out until 2014, so it was running on an older engine from jump.

I am pretty sure they are not using any element from the Creation Engine at all. You might be thinking about Fallout 76. Also, I think there's a basic misunderstanding of what a game engine is. It's not something you can add last minute before you launch a game. Besides, 2013 is really not that old for a game engine. I agree with you that there is a big performance problem and that ZOS needs to do something about it. I just don't think the solution is as "simple" (it's far from simple) as switching to another game engine.

Your right two separate studios with the same brain making decisions though. Bethesda has really made some horrible decisions. Let's have a look at FO76 IT IS ATROCIOUS . Plain and simple they destroyed the IP and ripped of the fan base. They didnt make a new game they fitted an old game to have multiplayer options and charged full price for one of the worst games ever produced. Bethesda is the parent company they make zos build the game they seem will make as much money as fast as possible.