Vhozek wrote: »

LORE DOES NOT SERVE THE GAMEPLAY.
GAMEPLAY SERVES THE LORE.

High Elf: Stamina restoration
- Dark Elves are already High Elves that adapted to more physical combat. High Elves, on average, have always been known for their magic. Why is the below average being represented? Also, they are direct counterparts to the Redguard but this stamina buff makes it inconsistent.

Argonians: Removal of self healing
- They have always been known for being able to heal themselves and are less known for being able to heal others

Wood Elf: Green Pact being left out
- How come there is no buff for killing something? You have already added damage buffs to other races so it's not like you can't add a situational buff to another. The dude on stream says they take a real close look at the lore, but you obviously don't. Stop lying. Fix yourself.

Breton: The real High Elf
- They are a mix of human and elf, but for some reason you decide to give the stamina regen to the pure elf (high elf) while knowing that Bretons are well known for their Spellswords. Lore. Again, stop lying. Fix yourself.

Dark Elf: Removal of Flame Damage
- They're not actually known for dealing more flame damage, but you already gave us a candy you can't take away. Modern devs are always talking about "we don't want to punish the player" but that's exactly what you're doing.

Khajiit: Literally what
-They don't need buffs on literally everything. Also, how come cats don't have reduced fall damage and/or increased unarmed damage? Khajiit always look the most monk-like in artwork.

Nord: Rugged is the same (I think)
- Everything else about the Nord is actually perfect, but you changed Rugged for the sake of making changes while literally making no changes to it. The resistances from the new Rugged provide the exact same damage reduction as the current Rugged.

Redguard: Not a flaw, but read
- They are direct counterparts of the High Elves and for some reason High Elves have a stamina restoration ability. Consistency consistency. This is not consistent.

Imperial: Still can't heal others
- They are known for being great healers but for some reason they can't heal anything other than themselves. The hell is wrong with you?

LORE
LORE
LORE
YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG

Actually was just from pts and the altmer change is it gave back magicka or stamina, whichever is lowest atm. Not scaled to any maximum resource. Just saying it's not bad right now since as long as you cast a class ability.

Again, the changes aren't just for one role but for multiple roles and also both pvp and pve.

There's no Lore, but what Devs make for us.

There is absolutely no point in clinging to any Elder Scroll Lore, each game is it's own iteration and is best taken as a totally separate thing. What is true in one game, will be changed to fit the needs of the next game. That's just the way it goes with this IP.

The sooner you accept that, the less headaches you will suffer. Took myself long enough to realize.

In the past, I've written plenty about the state of Imperials as an ESO race. There are reams and reams of "Lore", describing their affinity for their highly organized legions of lightly armored soldiers and battlemages. Yet in ESO, they tend to be heavy armor clad tanks. I tried to be that battlemage for a long long time, but eventually gave up. I respecced to stamina and went with medium armor and picked up a bow. That way I can at least be a lightly armored hit and run fighter, though still far far away from what "lore" informs my race to be known for.

The moral of the story is, that you will not get anywhere with a lore based argument - and for every bit of lore you can muster in defense of your views, there is bound to be some other lore bit lurking about that can be used to counter it.

In the end, the devs will do what they think is the best for the game, and will re-write lore afterwards to fit the new narrative.

If you are not happy about the proposed racials, then offer mechanical reasoning why things should be changed. Citing lore will not have any impact.

Threads like these, are in my mind, just more proof why ESO should adopt the same stance as every other game under the banner. Make races a mostly cosmetic choice. Give each race an affinity towards specific skill lines, make some easier and some harder for them to master, but do not modify maximum theoretical potential.

Race should be the starting point, and tell you about the origins of your character, but your path should be your own. And the game should let people play those unusual individuals, that go against the norms of their race and culture, without hitting them with a serious mechanical disadvantage in endgame content.

Would only serve the game better in the long run, and would actually diversify the field of characters immensely. How about a sneaky sly nord magblade? A beefy altmer stamina based tank? But nah... Better to make all tanks come from one meta race, and mag and stam dps characters from their respective meta races. Makes for so much more "diversity."

Seraphayel wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Argonians: Removal of self healing
- They have always been known for being able to heal themselves and are less known for being able to heal others

The most baffling thing to me is just all of the sudden Argonians do not have poison resistance... I mean you are telling me that a race of lizards that lives on a Blighttown - like swamp for generations, if not centuries (and this is their homeland) does not have any poison resistance in the slightest ?!

I can understand removing poison immunity from Argnians and Disease immunity from wood elves simply because of balance... But imho they should still leave some form of poison / disease resistance on both of those races. Maybe lower the higher resistance value by 1/3 and add that 1/3 to missing poison / disease resistance ?

Argonians lost their poison immunity back in Skyrim btw.

Skyrim is super dumbed down, this isn't Skyrim this is 2nd era if you want to get technical.

ok so based on a cash grab game dev bunch of *** the lore and history of a game never was the concept that helped build how the races work? thank god i feel so enlightened!!!! in my 20+ year of RPG life i have never read something so god damn stupid!
so if we go by this logic... everything that bethesda has written lore wise in the TES franchise is pure todd howard?
todd howard being bull crap.

and the way the game was played wrote history so basicly you dolts are trying to send us back to arena and tell us that what we did back then forged the history of a game WE as a player never worked on? this is just some stupid junk to keep players asleep in order to get us to forget all the junk bethesda has done so far in eso. sadly i aint buying it.

it would be like saying that i took part in creating a game that i didnt even knew about when i was 11 years odl and that came out when i reached puberty and took quite a while to get to my place when i already had a playstation 1 with a truck ton of games at my reach and hot girls to date. hell ifi had to go back and pick between tes 1 and gaming nights with my friends, cute girls and junk food... hell tes 1 would still hit the dumpster

Koronach wrote: »

That was kind of my point, they said we lost it in Skyrim. This game takes place before Skyrim, regardless we already have it on here and shouldn't just magically lose it. Like the others said at least keep the immunity to disease but keep the poison resistance just not the full immunity.

There'll always be some differences to balance things.
If only one resistance is allowed in racials, then Argonian must have disease resistance because it's the most fitting for them. It's not like they gave Argonian a less fitting resistance (Fire, Shock, Frost, Magic, Oblivion, Physical).

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Argonians: Removal of self healing
- They have always been known for being able to heal themselves and are less known for being able to heal others

The most baffling thing to me is just all of the sudden Argonians do not have poison resistance... I mean you are telling me that a race of lizards that lives on a Blighttown - like swamp for generations, if not centuries (and this is their homeland) does not have any poison resistance in the slightest ?!

I can understand removing poison immunity from Argnians and Disease immunity from wood elves simply because of balance... But imho they should still leave some form of poison / disease resistance on both of those races. Maybe lower the higher resistance value by 1/3 and add that 1/3 to missing poison / disease resistance ?

Argonians lost their poison immunity back in Skyrim btw.

Skyrim is super dumbed down, this isn't Skyrim this is 2nd era if you want to get technical.

I'm not sure that's how it works though. It was a pure gameplay decision, as far as I know there was never any in universe explanation for the lost passive so the era doesn't matter at all.

Skyrim was dumbed down quite a bit, however the leveling system from Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion was kind of broken. This was very visible in Oblivion as they reduced number of skills and training you could do and at the same time level scaling kept the game from being trivial at high levels.

And the racial in the earlier games is fundamentally different from ESO, They was mostly stating bonuses on skills and attributes. In ESO they are endgame bonuses. Resistances is the only thing who has mostly carried trough.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

Joker99 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

So? Altmer should be only choice while everything else is subpar? They way it was for past 5 years?

Its balanced now, deal with it.

Where was I for that? Dunmer has been competitive and outright beats it in many cases for ages.

And Altmer and Dunmer are supposed to be the most magical classes from lore.

Lore is important for that because who are new are likely to be players of other Elder Scrolls games, and what do you expect them to do when they find out their Altmer mage should have been a Khajit?

A lot of them will just quit.

It isn't new player friendly, and it isn't diehard fan friendly.

It's nothing wrong with other races being within 1-2% instead of being hands down worse, but to completely upend the lore is ridiculous.

Uh wut? Altmer are still TOP magicka DPS. Just not by 10% like before and are brought down to other aces.

In other TES games every race could go to 100 skill in any tree and be as good as anyone else at it. You were saying about lore?

Altmer were never the top magicka DPS race. It was always Dunmer. Your comments tell me you've never played endgame PvE.

And even right now on PTS, they only get the top score with shadow mundus (for whatever reason). In tests with thief mundus, they are behind Dunmer and Khajiit (again, for whatever reason). If Shadow is nerfed (which it likely will be), Breton is top DPS again.

Calling out people for not being part of endgame PvE while you're not part of it yourself, either you're a two patches old player or simply have no idea what you're talking about, what about the time shock staves were meta, or when the raid composition was 8 magsorcs, high elf is always better for a sorc, even in murkmire, and it was meta on everything apart from magdk after the morrowind changes.

Comical post. Dunmer is currently BiS for every single class on live (go have a look at any top scoring raid guild's comp). It offers more DPS for everyone, even sorc.

The only time it wasn't BiS was during the shock staff meta.

Kulvar wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

That was kind of my point, they said we lost it in Skyrim. This game takes place before Skyrim, regardless we already have it on here and shouldn't just magically lose it. Like the others said at least keep the immunity to disease but keep the poison resistance just not the full immunity.

There'll always be some differences to balance things.
If only one resistance is allowed in racials, then Argonian must have disease resistance because it's the most fitting for them. It's not like they gave Argonian a less fitting resistance (Fire, Shock, Frost, Magic, Oblivion, Physical).

Except that disease resistance seems worthless on here. There's way more poisons in PVE and PVP than I notice diseases being used. So it just seems like another straight up nerf on top of every other racial besides swim speed and lolhealing done to others.

DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »

*** the lore, people want a balanced game in the first place and based on the feedback they continuously get, they will most likely change some passives again.
If you want lore go read a book.

Balanced we be having a magic race retain passives related to magic.Not changing it to give back your opposite resource.We don't need that ***.

Personal i think on the dummer i will only take the extra spell damage dont care about the rest, they are as much use as a chocolate fire guard

Vhozek wrote: »

LORE DOES NOT SERVE THE GAMEPLAY.
GAMEPLAY SERVES THE LORE.

High Elf: Stamina restoration
- Dark Elves are already High Elves that adapted to more physical combat. High Elves, on average, have always been known for their magic. Why is the below average being represented? Also, they are direct counterparts to the Redguard but this stamina buff makes it inconsistent.

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff.

The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

The most simple and blaring problem with the racial changes are that all the races weren't constructed with any guidelines in mind. They gave each race ~6.5 item set bonuses, which one could argue is a guideline, but it's proven to have far too much variance between the races.

The simple solution would have been for ZOS to implement easily definable and unbreakable guidelines that all races must follow while designing the rebalance. If it were up to me, these guidelines would look something like this:

1. Each race is granted an allotment of 3000 maximum resources distributed between magicka, health, and stamina, with bonuses to health receiving a 10% increase consistent with all other sources of health in the game (right now, races are being given variable amounts of max resources which is inherently unbalanced)
2. Each race is granted a small defensive bonus of relatively equal value (all races already have this)
3. Each race is granted a sustain tool for at least one of their resources, the strength of which is correlated to the offensive power of the race through an inverse relationship (most races already have this)
4. Each race is granted exactly two 2-4 piece item set bonuses, copy pasted directly from item sets that exist in the game already whenever possible (reducing the number from 6.5 to 2 greatly reduces variability in the balance, and using pre-existing set bonuses further promotes balance by drawing from the pre-existing balance between stats in the game)
5. Each race will properly reflect traditional TES lore (ZOS botched this in some areas)

Here is my theoretical rebalance of the racial passives adhering to these guidelines:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459197/racial-rebalance-v4-3-x#latest

NyassaV wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

LORE DOES NOT SERVE THE GAMEPLAY.
GAMEPLAY SERVES THE LORE.

High Elf: Stamina restoration
- Dark Elves are already High Elves that adapted to more physical combat. High Elves, on average, have always been known for their magic. Why is the below average being represented? Also, they are direct counterparts to the Redguard but this stamina buff makes it inconsistent.

Can't be a good caster if you can't break free, dodge, or block right? Management of your secondary resource is important and this passive gives you that. So stop complaining and take the nice stuff.

The High Elves now use their magic too keep themselves in good physical condition through out a fight. Stop thinking down such a narrow path. Magic is many things not just the couple schools. The schools were created by the mages guild to teach magic easier.

In just about every single fantasy game(and most books) mages are known for being physically frail...the stronger the magical ability, the weaker physically...and vice versa. The same is shown in TES universe(though not to the extreme of some fantasy worlds)