MLGProPlayer wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Yeah, as a Dunmer player, I dont want your offloaded stat regen. Feel free to keep it.

You're spamming every Altmer thread with how great you think this passive is, but you don't want it on your Dunmer? Why is that?

Also, why are you even posting in Altmer threads if you don't play the race?

When Dunmer were nerfed in PTS 1 myself and a lot of other Altmer mains posted asking for buffs to Dunmer. When Altmer got nerfed, you just resorted to trolling our threads. It's petty and childish.

twing1_ wrote: »

@idk

I acknowledge the races have differences in defensive statistics. I acknowledge that dunmer have more max stamina while altmer have more stamina sustain (although these ultimately accomplish the same function: more roll dodges/combat utility). I acknowledge that Altmer also have 125 more max magicka.

When you add all these together, though, I still don't think they make a large enough distinction between the two races to give them each a unique feel.

Vapirko wrote: »

I disagree. Dunmers are a great crossover race opening up more Vampire builds to stamina, where as Altmers will be strictly magicka and offer slightly more damage, and provide magicka classes a way to get stamina in PvP without sacrificing so much in their build, or stacking on what they already have.

Vapirko wrote: »

I disagree. Dunmers are a great crossover race opening up more Vampire builds to stamina, where as Altmers will be strictly magicka and offer slightly more damage, and provide magicka classes a way to get stamina in PvP without sacrificing so much in their build, or stacking on what they already have.

Vapirko wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I disagree. Dunmers are a great crossover race opening up more Vampire builds to stamina, where as Altmers will be strictly magicka and offer slightly more damage, and provide magicka classes a way to get stamina in PvP without sacrificing so much in their build, or stacking on what they already have.

@Vapirko

I too believe crossover is a great term for their current standing. As they currently stand, they are sufficiently equipped to play either a stamina play style OR a magicka play style. But, in playing each of these, they are lacking a unique feeling.

As a magicka play style, they are very very similar to the altmer race. They both have very similar damage (only 125 less max mag, otherwise identical) and also very similar off-stat utility (altmers have marginal utility due to stamina sustain, dunmer have marginal utility due to an extra 1875 stamina). In fact, the biggest difference between these two races is in their defensive stats, where altmer take less damage while casting and dunmer take less fire damage.

On the stamina side of the coin, dunmer and orcs are very similar, though the distinction is admittedly more clear. They both possess similar offensive stats (again, dunmer has only 125 less stamina than the orc race, but the same weapon damage). Where they differ is while orc have bonuses to health and slight health regen, dunmer have a slight bonus to maximum magicka and fire resistance.

In either case, there is currently no clear-cut reason to choose magicka dunmer over altmer nor stamina dunmer over orc, as for magicka dunmer's stamina utility is rivaled by the altmer and stamina dunmer's magicka utility is overshadowed by the orc race's benefits to health.

I believe granting them the off-stat sustain tool currently found on the altmer would definitely help to separate them from the altmer race (in terms of racial identity, and not balance) while also giving them a bit more useful magicka utility on the stamina side of things to help keep them up to speed with the orc race, as I believe most would agree orcs are pulling ahead in that department.

Not to mention it would contribute to the existing lore of Dunmer being both athletic warriors and skilled magicka users, granting then a more battle-mage sort of play style on the magicka side of things (with access to unquestionably more combat utility like dodging, blocking, and breaking free than the other magicka races) and a warrior-caster feel on their stamina counterparts (by granting them by far the most magicka utility for crowd control, healing, and other defensive spells like nb cloak or sorc dark deal).

Good points, but for example I know I’m going to choose Dunmer for my NB character right now specifically because I like to play magicka or stamina depending, and either way the max mag or stam works to my advantage. Not to mention, as we know, the fire resists lets me go vampire which also works for both specs due to increased sneak speed and both stamina and magicka recovery. And honestly I think this race could now make vampire builds more viable to a lot more classes and specs in PvP. I won’t play orc becusee I cant spec to magicka, the 1k health doesn’t concern me and the sprint speed doesn’t help in cloak or stealth.

What we need to accept is that in terms of high end DPS parses, or straight damage, there will always be better races and that’s fine. When looking at straight damage there may not be a reason to choose classes other than Orc or Altmer, but aside from high end DPS parses the damage difference is small to non existent and there are many many other reasons to play other classes, I can tell you right now we’re going to see a lot of cool builds coming out that don’t use Orcs or Altmers.

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So having talked about this to death in other threads, I have to ask, what do you expect in terms of diversity for 2 high mag dd races?

There is no other way to give players higher damage outside of giving them wep and/or spell damage.

They both get a chunk, because they're both high mag DD races. Saying those passives are similar is as good as saying that no two races can have magica as a central focus.

@validifyedneb18_ESO

I believe giving to the dunmer the off-stat sustain tool currently found on the altmer would do the trick.

This would emphasize magicka Dunmer's athletic ability by allowing them to roll dodge and use more combat mechanics through added stamina sustain, while also helping stamina dunmer reclai their identity as skilled casters (with greater access to magicka skills like crowd control, self heals, damage shields, night blade cloak, etc) through greater magicka sustain.

Altmer could be granted a small magicka related bonus that doesn't directly increase their damage potential, like increased status effect chance, as compensation.

The damage balance between races would remain virtually unchanged.

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So having talked about this to death in other threads, I have to ask, what do you expect in terms of diversity for 2 high mag dd races?

There is no other way to give players higher damage outside of giving them wep and/or spell damage.

They both get a chunk, because they're both high mag DD races. Saying those passives are similar is as good as saying that no two races can have magica as a central focus.

@validifyedneb18_ESO

I believe giving to the dunmer the off-stat sustain tool currently found on the altmer would do the trick.

This would emphasize magicka Dunmer's athletic ability by allowing them to roll dodge and use more combat mechanics through added stamina sustain, while also helping stamina dunmer reclai their identity as skilled casters (with greater access to magicka skills like crowd control, self heals, damage shields, night blade cloak, etc) through greater magicka sustain.

Altmer could be granted a small magicka related bonus that doesn't directly increase their damage potential, like increased status effect chance, as compensation.

The damage balance between races would remain virtually unchanged.

Well, altmer have the stam sustain. So thats the diversity. Moving a passive from one race to the other doesnt increase diversity between the two races does it?

I agree slightly that they could maybe do with less stamina sustain and maybe something else a little magicky but utility not damage increasing.

Dunmer seem to have tonnes of racial style though, is see no need to change anything. At-least not solely in the name of racial identity.

Altmer have the stamina sustain, while Dunmer have the higher stamina pool.

Having more stamina sustain grants altmer slightly more roll dodges and combat utility.

Having higher max stamina grants dunmer slightly more roll dodges and combat utility.

These are both very similar bonuses. I believe that putting them both onto one class would establish the needed diversity between the two.

twing1_ wrote: »

Greetings. As most of you already know, ZOS is currently trying to rebalance racial passives to more equalize the races whilst also making the races more accommodating to every role (tank, DPS, or healer) and retaining each race's unique feel and gameplay. For the most part, they've done a pretty good job. I feel most of the races are pretty balanced, unique, and also viable for every role. One area where they fall short, in my opinion, is giving the Altmer and Dunmer unique racial identities. Here are their current racial passives on the PTS:

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875
-Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

ZOS has stated their attempts to balance the races are based off of end game content. As such, we will analyze these races accordingly. In most endgame content, offensive power (max stats, damage, and sustain) is what most would agree hold the greatest importance. It is for this reason we will primarily focus on these stats and for the most part ignore the Altmer's damage reduction while casting and the Dunmer's fire resistance (as these defensive bonuses could conceivably cancel each other out from a racial balancing perspective anyway).

As we can see, Altmers possess great bonuses to Magicka offensive power, and are quite intended for endgame Magicka builds. Dunmers, on the other hand, possess equal bonuses to both Magicka and Stamina offensive power. However, because hybrid builds (builds that use both offensive abilities scaling off of Stamina and offensive abilities scaling off of Magicka) are not viable for end game content (due to splitting of resources, lack of synergistic CPs, etc...), we will examine Dunmers as either endgame Magicka OR endgame Stamina builds. To more directly compare the Dunmer against the Altmer, we will focus on their Magicka build. With this in mind, here are their offensive stats:

Altmer Offensive Passives
-2000 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Dunmer Offensive Passives
-1875 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Right off the bat we can see their similarities. In fact, outside of the additional 125 Max Magicka the Altmer get, they are identical. But what about their off-stat passives?

Altmer Secondary Stat Passives
-Restore 645 Stamina after activating a class ability every 6 seconds

Dunmer Secondary Stat Passives
-1875 Max Stamina
-258 Weapon Damage (though this can be largely ignored, due to the vast majority of endgame Magicka builds synergizing off of Spell Damage and not Weapon Damage. A notable exception would be dual wield cast builds, however this passive even in those builds would only affect light attack damage, and not ability damage.)

So even in their off-stat passives, the two races seem pretty similar. They both provide very limited increased Stamina utility (for roll dodging, blocking, breaking free, etc...). Altmers get it through a little bit of added stamina sustain, while Dunmers get it through a bit more Stamina to begin with (larger max stamina). So even after taking these off-stat passives into account, the two races appear to be (in almost the most literal sense of the word) perfectly balanced. They are both great Magicka builds (the difference being only a measly 125(!) Max Magicka) and each provide a bit of Stamina utility via either sustain for Altmers or max resource pool for Dunmers. So why play an Altmer over a Dunmer? Why a Dunmer over an Altmer? They are virtually identical. Where is the racial identity?

Lore dictates that Altmer are among the most powerful and distinguished spell casters in the realm. Dunmer, on the other hand, are extremely nimble and athletic warriors that are also proficient in destruction magic. Why then, are they almost indistinguishable from one another in endgame content? Why don't their racial passives reflect these differences? As the racial passives currently are on the PTS, neither race is adding a unique flavor to the game and they are both overshadowed by each other.

So what can be done?

Altmer passives should play into their dominance as mages found within TES lore. I believe granting them a passive to reinforce their use as magicka users without directly increasing their raw magicka power would help establish their racial identity. An off-stat sustain ability has no place on the Altmer's racial passives. Instead, it belongs to the Dunmer, the race known for their spell casting and athleticism. I would like to see this added to their passives, even at the cost of a minimal (very minimal, as Dunmer are currently in a good spot for magicka DPS) amount of max resources if need be to maintain balance. These changes would help distinguish Altmer as superior mages to the Dunmer (via a small boost to magicka usage and a slightly greater disparity between max resources) and also keep them in the running for top Magicka DPS parses (as on PTS they are currently falling behind both Breton and Khajit). These changes would also showcase the duality of the Dunmer's nature as both skilled warriors and as proficient spell casters, by providing unquestionably the most off-stat utility out of any race via both sustain and max resource pool. With a Dunmer specced into Magicka, this would provide greater ability to sprint, roll dodge, break free, bash, and block effectively, while still putting out very competitive endgame Magicka DPS.

Here are my proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

In short, these changes would differentiate these two races enough from one another that playing each would give gameplay a unique and flavored feel that currently isn't there. It would also give more options to consider for endgame builds. Players would have to ask themselves "do I want a truly, nails to teeth min/maxed build for Magicka DPS that excels in very controlled endgame content like trials? Or do I want a more versatile and defensive playstyle that excels in worst-case-scenario situations like Veteran Maelstrom Arena and PvP?" If squeezing out the last, tiny bit of DPS is a goal, Altmer should be chosen. If a player desires more versatility, Dunmer is the race to be. Both would be equally competitive in endgame content, though they would each excel at different things.

I know this analysis was focused on Dunmer vs. Altmer as Magicka builds, but a similar situation is present on the Stamina side of things between Dunmer and Orcs, albeit to a lesser extent thanks to the Orc's unique passives that keep them alive longer in fights. My same aforementioned changes to the Dunmer, however, would also help to even further differentiate them from the Orcs by providing Stamina Dunmers greater access to Magicka utillity for things like crowd control, self heals, and various other survival mechanics that rely on magicka usage (Nightblade cloak, looking at you). This too would help reinforce the Dunmer's identity as a hybrid/jack-of-all-trades race and support their lore as warrior-casters.

I've posted a link to this thread in a comment on the official racial change feedback thread (link found below) and if you guys support these changes please do the same. The key is to make enough buzz that it gathers the attention of the development team, so tagging a dev in your comment on that thread couldn't hurt either. Please let me know what you guys think and comment your thoughts, critiques, and objections, as the best suggestions can overcome adversity.

Link to official racial change feedback thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454514/pts-update-21-feedback-thread-for-racial-passive-changes#latest

TL;DR: As of now on the PTS, for most endgame content, Altmer and Dunmer Magicka builds are almost indistinguishable from one another, with the only difference being in their defensive passives and a measly 125(!) max magicka advantage to the Altmer. This is costing each of these races their unique racial identity, for if you've played as an Altmer you might as well have played as a Magicka specced Dunmer also. To differentiate the two races a little better, Altmer's off-stat sustain should be converted to a slight boost to magicka use in some way that doesn't directly affect their raw damage potential and Dunmer should inherit an off-stat sustain passive (at the cost of a minimal amount of max resources, if necessary). Proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increase Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

P.S. I've posted about this issue before, but finally took the time out to thoroughly and completely explain my reasoning. I apologize for the wall of text and any perceived spam.

Edit: Implemented into the original post some ideas discussed in the comments

Edit2: Changed values of proposed Dunmer resource pools, as the initial proposition of 1500 was too low (debated in comments below)

Edit3: Edited to reflect my current preference of the Altmer's passive to be increased chance to apply status effects.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Greetings. As most of you already know, ZOS is currently trying to rebalance racial passives to more equalize the races whilst also making the races more accommodating to every role (tank, DPS, or healer) and retaining each race's unique feel and gameplay. For the most part, they've done a pretty good job. I feel most of the races are pretty balanced, unique, and also viable for every role. One area where they fall short, in my opinion, is giving the Altmer and Dunmer unique racial identities. Here are their current racial passives on the PTS:

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875
-Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

ZOS has stated their attempts to balance the races are based off of end game content. As such, we will analyze these races accordingly. In most endgame content, offensive power (max stats, damage, and sustain) is what most would agree hold the greatest importance. It is for this reason we will primarily focus on these stats and for the most part ignore the Altmer's damage reduction while casting and the Dunmer's fire resistance (as these defensive bonuses could conceivably cancel each other out from a racial balancing perspective anyway).

As we can see, Altmers possess great bonuses to Magicka offensive power, and are quite intended for endgame Magicka builds. Dunmers, on the other hand, possess equal bonuses to both Magicka and Stamina offensive power. However, because hybrid builds (builds that use both offensive abilities scaling off of Stamina and offensive abilities scaling off of Magicka) are not viable for end game content (due to splitting of resources, lack of synergistic CPs, etc...), we will examine Dunmers as either endgame Magicka OR endgame Stamina builds. To more directly compare the Dunmer against the Altmer, we will focus on their Magicka build. With this in mind, here are their offensive stats:

Altmer Offensive Passives
-2000 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Dunmer Offensive Passives
-1875 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Right off the bat we can see their similarities. In fact, outside of the additional 125 Max Magicka the Altmer get, they are identical. But what about their off-stat passives?

Altmer Secondary Stat Passives
-Restore 645 Stamina after activating a class ability every 6 seconds

Dunmer Secondary Stat Passives
-1875 Max Stamina
-258 Weapon Damage (though this can be largely ignored, due to the vast majority of endgame Magicka builds synergizing off of Spell Damage and not Weapon Damage. A notable exception would be dual wield cast builds, however this passive even in those builds would only affect light attack damage, and not ability damage.)

So even in their off-stat passives, the two races seem pretty similar. They both provide very limited increased Stamina utility (for roll dodging, blocking, breaking free, etc...). Altmers get it through a little bit of added stamina sustain, while Dunmers get it through a bit more Stamina to begin with (larger max stamina). So even after taking these off-stat passives into account, the two races appear to be (in almost the most literal sense of the word) perfectly balanced. They are both great Magicka builds (the difference being only a measly 125(!) Max Magicka) and each provide a bit of Stamina utility via either sustain for Altmers or max resource pool for Dunmers. So why play an Altmer over a Dunmer? Why a Dunmer over an Altmer? They are virtually identical. Where is the racial identity?

Lore dictates that Altmer are among the most powerful and distinguished spell casters in the realm. Dunmer, on the other hand, are extremely nimble and athletic warriors that are also proficient in destruction magic. Why then, are they almost indistinguishable from one another in endgame content? Why don't their racial passives reflect these differences? As the racial passives currently are on the PTS, neither race is adding a unique flavor to the game and they are both overshadowed by each other.

So what can be done?

Altmer passives should play into their dominance as mages found within TES lore. I believe granting them a passive to reinforce their use as magicka users without directly increasing their raw magicka power would help establish their racial identity. An off-stat sustain ability has no place on the Altmer's racial passives. Instead, it belongs to the Dunmer, the race known for their spell casting and athleticism. I would like to see this added to their passives, even at the cost of a minimal (very minimal, as Dunmer are currently in a good spot for magicka DPS) amount of max resources if need be to maintain balance. These changes would help distinguish Altmer as superior mages to the Dunmer (via a small boost to magicka usage and a slightly greater disparity between max resources) and also keep them in the running for top Magicka DPS parses (as on PTS they are currently falling behind both Breton and Khajit). These changes would also showcase the duality of the Dunmer's nature as both skilled warriors and as proficient spell casters, by providing unquestionably the most off-stat utility out of any race via both sustain and max resource pool. With a Dunmer specced into Magicka, this would provide greater ability to sprint, roll dodge, break free, bash, and block effectively, while still putting out very competitive endgame Magicka DPS.

Here are my proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

In short, these changes would differentiate these two races enough from one another that playing each would give gameplay a unique and flavored feel that currently isn't there. It would also give more options to consider for endgame builds. Players would have to ask themselves "do I want a truly, nails to teeth min/maxed build for Magicka DPS that excels in very controlled endgame content like trials? Or do I want a more versatile and defensive playstyle that excels in worst-case-scenario situations like Veteran Maelstrom Arena and PvP?" If squeezing out the last, tiny bit of DPS is a goal, Altmer should be chosen. If a player desires more versatility, Dunmer is the race to be. Both would be equally competitive in endgame content, though they would each excel at different things.

I know this analysis was focused on Dunmer vs. Altmer as Magicka builds, but a similar situation is present on the Stamina side of things between Dunmer and Orcs, albeit to a lesser extent thanks to the Orc's unique passives that keep them alive longer in fights. My same aforementioned changes to the Dunmer, however, would also help to even further differentiate them from the Orcs by providing Stamina Dunmers greater access to Magicka utillity for things like crowd control, self heals, and various other survival mechanics that rely on magicka usage (Nightblade cloak, looking at you). This too would help reinforce the Dunmer's identity as a hybrid/jack-of-all-trades race and support their lore as warrior-casters.

I've posted a link to this thread in a comment on the official racial change feedback thread (link found below) and if you guys support these changes please do the same. The key is to make enough buzz that it gathers the attention of the development team, so tagging a dev in your comment on that thread couldn't hurt either. Please let me know what you guys think and comment your thoughts, critiques, and objections, as the best suggestions can overcome adversity.

Link to official racial change feedback thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454514/pts-update-21-feedback-thread-for-racial-passive-changes#latest

TL;DR: As of now on the PTS, for most endgame content, Altmer and Dunmer Magicka builds are almost indistinguishable from one another, with the only difference being in their defensive passives and a measly 125(!) max magicka advantage to the Altmer. This is costing each of these races their unique racial identity, for if you've played as an Altmer you might as well have played as a Magicka specced Dunmer also. To differentiate the two races a little better, Altmer's off-stat sustain should be converted to a slight boost to magicka use in some way that doesn't directly affect their raw damage potential and Dunmer should inherit an off-stat sustain passive (at the cost of a minimal amount of max resources, if necessary). Proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increase Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

P.S. I've posted about this issue before, but finally took the time out to thoroughly and completely explain my reasoning. I apologize for the wall of text and any perceived spam.

Edit: Implemented into the original post some ideas discussed in the comments

Edit2: Changed values of proposed Dunmer resource pools, as the initial proposition of 1500 was too low (debated in comments below)

Edit3: Edited to reflect my current preference of the Altmer's passive to be increased chance to apply status effects.

I'm rather disappointed this wasn't acted upon. I now fear these races will be incredibly indistinguishable for the rest of eternity.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Could we get an explanation as to why these races don't deserve as much differentiation from one another as the other races?

Well you do seem to be in the minority in thinking that there is a lack of differentiation.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Greetings. As most of you already know, ZOS is currently trying to rebalance racial passives to more equalize the races whilst also making the races more accommodating to every role (tank, DPS, or healer) and retaining each race's unique feel and gameplay. For the most part, they've done a pretty good job. I feel most of the races are pretty balanced, unique, and also viable for every role. One area where they fall short, in my opinion, is giving the Altmer and Dunmer unique racial identities. Here are their current racial passives on the PTS:

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875
-Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

ZOS has stated their attempts to balance the races are based off of end game content. As such, we will analyze these races accordingly. In most endgame content, offensive power (max stats, damage, and sustain) is what most would agree hold the greatest importance. It is for this reason we will primarily focus on these stats and for the most part ignore the Altmer's damage reduction while casting and the Dunmer's fire resistance (as these defensive bonuses could conceivably cancel each other out from a racial balancing perspective anyway).

As we can see, Altmers possess great bonuses to Magicka offensive power, and are quite intended for endgame Magicka builds. Dunmers, on the other hand, possess equal bonuses to both Magicka and Stamina offensive power. However, because hybrid builds (builds that use both offensive abilities scaling off of Stamina and offensive abilities scaling off of Magicka) are not viable for end game content (due to splitting of resources, lack of synergistic CPs, etc...), we will examine Dunmers as either endgame Magicka OR endgame Stamina builds. To more directly compare the Dunmer against the Altmer, we will focus on their Magicka build. With this in mind, here are their offensive stats:

Altmer Offensive Passives
-2000 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Dunmer Offensive Passives
-1875 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Right off the bat we can see their similarities. In fact, outside of the additional 125 Max Magicka the Altmer get, they are identical. But what about their off-stat passives?

Altmer Secondary Stat Passives
-Restore 645 Stamina after activating a class ability every 6 seconds

Dunmer Secondary Stat Passives
-1875 Max Stamina
-258 Weapon Damage (though this can be largely ignored, due to the vast majority of endgame Magicka builds synergizing off of Spell Damage and not Weapon Damage. A notable exception would be dual wield cast builds, however this passive even in those builds would only affect light attack damage, and not ability damage.)

So even in their off-stat passives, the two races seem pretty similar. They both provide very limited increased Stamina utility (for roll dodging, blocking, breaking free, etc...). Altmers get it through a little bit of added stamina sustain, while Dunmers get it through a bit more Stamina to begin with (larger max stamina). So even after taking these off-stat passives into account, the two races appear to be (in almost the most literal sense of the word) perfectly balanced. They are both great Magicka builds (the difference being only a measly 125(!) Max Magicka) and each provide a bit of Stamina utility via either sustain for Altmers or max resource pool for Dunmers. So why play an Altmer over a Dunmer? Why a Dunmer over an Altmer? They are virtually identical. Where is the racial identity?

Lore dictates that Altmer are among the most powerful and distinguished spell casters in the realm. Dunmer, on the other hand, are extremely nimble and athletic warriors that are also proficient in destruction magic. Why then, are they almost indistinguishable from one another in endgame content? Why don't their racial passives reflect these differences? As the racial passives currently are on the PTS, neither race is adding a unique flavor to the game and they are both overshadowed by each other.

So what can be done?

Altmer passives should play into their dominance as mages found within TES lore. I believe granting them a passive to reinforce their use as magicka users without directly increasing their raw magicka power would help establish their racial identity. An off-stat sustain ability has no place on the Altmer's racial passives. Instead, it belongs to the Dunmer, the race known for their spell casting and athleticism. I would like to see this added to their passives, even at the cost of a minimal (very minimal, as Dunmer are currently in a good spot for magicka DPS) amount of max resources if need be to maintain balance. These changes would help distinguish Altmer as superior mages to the Dunmer (via a small boost to magicka usage and a slightly greater disparity between max resources) and also keep them in the running for top Magicka DPS parses (as on PTS they are currently falling behind both Breton and Khajit). These changes would also showcase the duality of the Dunmer's nature as both skilled warriors and as proficient spell casters, by providing unquestionably the most off-stat utility out of any race via both sustain and max resource pool. With a Dunmer specced into Magicka, this would provide greater ability to sprint, roll dodge, break free, bash, and block effectively, while still putting out very competitive endgame Magicka DPS.

Here are my proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

In short, these changes would differentiate these two races enough from one another that playing each would give gameplay a unique and flavored feel that currently isn't there. It would also give more options to consider for endgame builds. Players would have to ask themselves "do I want a truly, nails to teeth min/maxed build for Magicka DPS that excels in very controlled endgame content like trials? Or do I want a more versatile and defensive playstyle that excels in worst-case-scenario situations like Veteran Maelstrom Arena and PvP?" If squeezing out the last, tiny bit of DPS is a goal, Altmer should be chosen. If a player desires more versatility, Dunmer is the race to be. Both would be equally competitive in endgame content, though they would each excel at different things.

I know this analysis was focused on Dunmer vs. Altmer as Magicka builds, but a similar situation is present on the Stamina side of things between Dunmer and Orcs, albeit to a lesser extent thanks to the Orc's unique passives that keep them alive longer in fights. My same aforementioned changes to the Dunmer, however, would also help to even further differentiate them from the Orcs by providing Stamina Dunmers greater access to Magicka utillity for things like crowd control, self heals, and various other survival mechanics that rely on magicka usage (Nightblade cloak, looking at you). This too would help reinforce the Dunmer's identity as a hybrid/jack-of-all-trades race and support their lore as warrior-casters.

I've posted a link to this thread in a comment on the official racial change feedback thread (link found below) and if you guys support these changes please do the same. The key is to make enough buzz that it gathers the attention of the development team, so tagging a dev in your comment on that thread couldn't hurt either. Please let me know what you guys think and comment your thoughts, critiques, and objections, as the best suggestions can overcome adversity.

Link to official racial change feedback thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454514/pts-update-21-feedback-thread-for-racial-passive-changes#latest

TL;DR: As of now on the PTS, for most endgame content, Altmer and Dunmer Magicka builds are almost indistinguishable from one another, with the only difference being in their defensive passives and a measly 125(!) max magicka advantage to the Altmer. This is costing each of these races their unique racial identity, for if you've played as an Altmer you might as well have played as a Magicka specced Dunmer also. To differentiate the two races a little better, Altmer's off-stat sustain should be converted to a slight boost to magicka use in some way that doesn't directly affect their raw damage potential and Dunmer should inherit an off-stat sustain passive (at the cost of a minimal amount of max resources, if necessary). Proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Activating a class ability restores [x] magicka or stamina, based on whichever maximum is higher. This can occur every [y] seconds.
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1750-1875 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increase Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

P.S. I've posted about this issue before, but finally took the time out to thoroughly and completely explain my reasoning. I apologize for the wall of text and any perceived spam.

Edit: Implemented into the original post some ideas discussed in the comments

Edit2: Changed values of proposed Dunmer resource pools, as the initial proposition of 1500 was too low (debated in comments below)

Edit3: Edited to reflect my current preference of the Altmer's passive to be increased chance to apply status effects.

I'm rather disappointed this wasn't acted upon. I now fear these races will be incredibly indistinguishable for the rest of eternity.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Could we get an explanation as to why these races don't deserve as much differentiation from one another as the other races?

Well you do seem to be in the minority in thinking that there is a lack of differentiation.

Does this fact disqualify me from asking for an explanation?


From what I've gathered from the discussion in this post is that people are satisfied with magicka dunmer being a virtual altmer clone that is immune to the burning status effect.

I would just like to hear from a dev if it is in fact this fire resistance and immunity that differentiates them enough or the other noticeable difference: the ability dunmer have to be able to re-spec to either magicka or stamina, which, imho, shouldn't be taken into consideration as it doesn't affect endgame gameplay (as we are not permitted to respec skills and attributes except at dedication shrines).

No, it doesn't, but you have to realize that the "reason" is probably just that ZOS (and many members of the community) simply disagree with what you. Along with the original reason stated on the 4.3.2 dev comment for the Altmer change.

Another thing I would say, and I think...? Ive said it before. If you want a change, propose something. But propose something that takes the original developer decision and the data into account. ZOS dont want Altmer to have sustain, we know that, and Altmer are already top magDD so id suggest that asking for something that would increase DPS would also be stupid.

Because at the end of the day, its not that Dunmer have a problem (Or more accurately, its not that you have a problem with Dunmer), its that you currently dont like the state of Altmer in terms of racial style. So suggest something. But be more smart about it. And make your point, dont try to drag dunmer into this when clearly its that Altmer feels bland to you.