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Lack of Racial Identity between Altmer and Dunmer

twing1_
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TL;DR: Altmer's off-stat sustain is compromising Dunmer's unique gameplay style as the hybrid race. This is costing each of these races their defining racial identity, for if you've played as an Altmer you might as well have played as a Magicka specced Dunmer also. To differentiate the two races a little better, Altmer's off-stat sustain should be converted to a slight boost to magicka use in some way that DOES NOT directly affect their raw damage potential or magicka sustain in the damage dealer role and Dunmer should inherit an off-stat sustain passive (at the cost of a minimal amount of max resources ONLY IF NECESSARY). Proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Increases the amount of resources restored by fully charged heavy attacks by [x]. (This passive would synergize particularly well with their current 5% damage reduction while casting, as heavy attacks are considered channeled/cast time abilities)
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.


Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1500-1750 (Down from 1875 ONLY IF NECESSARY).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increase Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

The following is an analytical comparison between both of these races and detailed justification for the proposed changes:

Greetings. As most of you already know, ZOS is currently trying to rebalance racial passives to more equalize the races whilst also making the races more accommodating to every role (tank, DPS, or healer) and retaining each race's unique feel and gameplay. For the most part, they've done a pretty good job. I feel most of the races are pretty balanced, unique, and also viable for every role. One area where they fall short, in my opinion, is giving the Altmer and Dunmer unique racial identities. Here are their current racial passives on the PTS:

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Restore 645 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is lower, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1875
-Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

ZOS has stated their attempts to balance the races are based off of end game content. As such, we will analyze these races accordingly. In most endgame content, offensive power (max stats, damage, and sustain) is what most would agree hold the greatest importance. It is for this reason we will primarily focus on these stats and for the most part ignore the Altmer's damage reduction while casting and the Dunmer's fire resistance (as these defensive bonuses could conceivably cancel each other out from a racial balancing perspective anyway).

As we can see, Altmers possess great bonuses to Magicka offensive power, and are quite intended for endgame Magicka builds. Dunmers, on the other hand, possess equal bonuses to both Magicka and Stamina offensive power. However, because hybrid builds (builds that use both offensive abilities scaling off of Stamina and offensive abilities scaling off of Magicka) are not viable for end game content (due to splitting of resources, lack of synergistic CPs, etc...), we will examine Dunmers as either endgame Magicka OR endgame Stamina builds. To more directly compare the Dunmer against the Altmer, we will focus on their Magicka build. With this in mind, here are their offensive stats:

Altmer Offensive Passives
-2000 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Dunmer Offensive Passives
-1875 Max Magicka
-258 Spell Damage

Right off the bat we can see their similarities. In fact, outside of the additional 125 Max Magicka the Altmer get, they are identical. But what about their off-stat passives?

Altmer Secondary Stat Passives
-Restore 645 Stamina after activating a class ability every 6 seconds

Dunmer Secondary Stat Passives
-1875 Max Stamina
-258 Weapon Damage (though this can be largely ignored, due to the vast majority of endgame Magicka builds synergizing off of Spell Damage and not Weapon Damage. A notable exception would be dual wield cast builds, however this passive even in those builds would only affect light attack damage, and not ability damage.)

So even in their off-stat passives, the two races seem pretty similar. They both provide very limited increased Stamina utility (for roll dodging, blocking, breaking free, etc...). Altmers get it through a little bit of added stamina sustain, while Dunmers get it through a bit more Stamina to begin with (larger max stamina). So even after taking these off-stat passives into account, the two races appear to be (in almost the most literal sense of the word) perfectly balanced. They are both great Magicka builds (the difference being only a measly 125(!) Max Magicka) and each provide a bit of Stamina utility via either sustain for Altmers or max resource pool for Dunmers. So why play an Altmer over a Dunmer? Why a Dunmer over an Altmer? They are virtually identical. Where is the racial identity?

Lore dictates that Altmer are among the most powerful and distinguished spell casters in the realm. Dunmer, on the other hand, are extremely nimble and athletic warriors that are also proficient in destruction magic. Why then, are they almost indistinguishable from one another in endgame content? Why don't their racial passives reflect these differences? As the racial passives currently are on the PTS, neither race is adding a unique flavor to the game and they are both overshadowed by each other.

So what can be done?

Altmer passives should play into their dominance as mages found within TES lore. I believe granting them a passive to reinforce their use as magicka users without directly increasing their raw magicka power or magicka sustain would help establish their racial identity. An off-stat sustain ability has no place on the Altmer's racial passives. Instead, it belongs to the Dunmer, the race known for their spell casting and athleticism. I would like to see this added to their passives, even at the cost of a minimal (very minimal, as Dunmer are currently in a good spot for magicka DPS) amount of max resources if need be to maintain balance. These changes would help distinguish Altmer as superior mages to the Dunmer (via a small boost to magicka usage and a slightly greater disparity between max resources) and also keep them in the running for top Magicka DPS parses without pushing them far ahead of the competition (as on PTS they are currently in a very good spot). These changes would also showcase the duality of the Dunmer's nature as both skilled warriors and as proficient spell casters, by providing unquestionably the most off-stat utility out of any race via both sustain and max resource pool. With a Dunmer specced into Magicka, this would provide greater ability to sprint, roll dodge, break free, bash, and block effectively, while still putting out very competitive endgame Magicka DPS.

Here are my proposed changes (in bold):

Altmer
-Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain
-Increases your chances of applying status effects by [x]%***. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time
-Increases your Max Magicka by 2000
-Increases your Spell Damage by 258

*** Here is a list of possible alternatives to this passive that have been suggested in the comments:
-Increases the amount of resources restored by fully charged heavy attacks by [x]. (This passive would synergize particularly well with their current 5% damage reduction while casting, as heavy attacks are considered channeled/cast time abilities)
-Restore [x] Magicka when you use a healing ability. This can occur every [y] seconds.


Dunmer
-Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%
-Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1500-1750 (Down from 1875).
-Restore [y] Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is LOWER, when you deal direct damage. This effect can occur once every [z] seconds. Increases Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect
-Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

In short, these changes would differentiate these two races enough from one another that playing each would give gameplay a unique and flavored feel that currently isn't there. It would also give more options to consider for endgame builds. Players would have to ask themselves "do I want a truly, nails to teeth min/maxed build for Magicka DPS that excels in very controlled endgame content like trials? Or do I want a more versatile and defensive playstyle that excels in worst-case-scenario situations like Veteran Maelstrom Arena and PvP?" If squeezing out the last, tiny bit of DPS is a goal, Altmer should be chosen. If a player desires more versatility, Dunmer is the race to be. Both would be equally competitive in endgame content, though they would each excel at different things.

I know this analysis was focused on Dunmer vs. Altmer as Magicka builds, but a similar situation is present on the Stamina side of things between Dunmer and Orcs, albeit to a lesser extent thanks to the Orc's unique passives that keep them alive longer in fights. The same aforementioned changes to the Dunmer, however, would also help to even further differentiate them from the Orcs by providing Stamina Dunmers greater access to Magicka utillity for things like crowd control, self heals, and various other survival mechanics that rely on magicka usage (Nightblade cloak, looking at you). This too would help reinforce the Dunmer's identity as a hybrid/jack-of-all-trades race and support their lore as warrior-casters.

I've posted a link to this thread in a comment on the official racial change feedback thread (link found below) and if you guys support these changes please do the same. The key is to make enough buzz that it gathers the attention of the development team, so tagging a dev in your comment on that thread couldn't hurt either. Please let me know what you guys think and comment your thoughts, critiques, and objections, as the best suggestions can overcome adversity.

Link to official racial change feedback thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454514/pts-update-21-feedback-thread-for-racial-passive-changes#latest

P.S. I've posted about this issue before, but finally took the time out to thoroughly and completely explain my reasoning. I apologize for the wall of text and any perceived spam.

Edit: Implemented into the original post some ideas discussed in the comments

Edit2: Changed values of proposed Dunmer resource pools, as the initial proposition of 1500 was too low (debated in comments below)

Edit3: Edited to reflect my current preference of the Altmer's passive to be increased chance to apply status effects.

Edit4: Added additional clarity to the stances I take in the TL;DR section and moved it to the top of the thread for easier access.
Edited by twing1_ on February 14, 2019 4:15PM
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Yeah, as a Dunmer player, I dont want your offloaded stat regen. Feel free to keep it.
    Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on February 8, 2019 12:48AM
    EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
    NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade
  • twing1_
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    Yeah, as a Dunmer player, I dont want your offloaded stat regen. Feel free to keep it.

    OP TLDR; "Guys, I have this great idea, how about we give this passive I dont like, to a race I dont play, and give my race something I like more."

    I don't have an altmer character. I do have a dunmer character, albeit it isn't my main. I would welcome the change with open arms for the sake of racial identity. I wouldn't miss the 375 Magicka and Stamina, but I would greatly appreciate more NB cloaking.
  • Dracane
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    Yeah, as a Dunmer player, I dont want your offloaded stat regen. Feel free to keep it.

    OP TLDR; "Guys, I have this great idea, how about we give this passive I dont like, to a race I dont play, and give my race something I like more."

    Can you ever stop with your blind negativity towards everything and everyone ?
    Would you tell me which race you are playing ? If any
    Because you seem to be against all.
    Edited by Dracane on February 8, 2019 12:37AM
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
  • Elric_Ashborn
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    The Altmer and Dunmer were updated, you should look at the latest patch notes.
  • twing1_
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    The Altmer and Dunmer were updated, you should look at the latest patch notes.

    I see only v4.3.2 patch notes... Am i missing something?
  • Dracane
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    The Altmer and Dunmer were updated, you should look at the latest patch notes.

    I see only v4.3.2 patch notes... Am i missing something?

    No, you got everything right. :)
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
  • Austinseph1
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    Considering almost all Dunmers were played for mag roles I can’t agree with anything that would put them into a more awkward position than what has already been done to them... That stamina passive is just as useless to a Dunmer Mag as it is to a mag Altmer. Those who played Altmer are just feeing the pain the rest of us did when we chose Dunmer as our race and had The rug pulled out from underneath us. A dual race sounds cool but hybrid builds will never be as good in PvE as a pure and it’s not viable enough without more CP. So it has no real place in minmaxing and only in RP. The changes just leveled the playing field.
    Edited by Austinseph1 on February 8, 2019 12:57AM
  • Austinseph1
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    It’s a little upsetting because it feels like they want to change things but they are just shooting in the dark. These are the identities our characters have had for half of a decade and it’s very sobering to have them played with when it feels like no real change or balance is being attained, just shifting BIS races.
  • twing1_
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    Considering almost all Dunmers were played for mag roles I can’t agree with anything that would put them into a more awkward position than what has already been done to them... That stamina passive is just as useless to a Dunmer Mag as it is to a mag Altmer. Those who played Altmer are just feeing the pain the rest of us did when we chose Dunmer as our race and had The rug pulled out from underneath us. A dual race sounds cool but hybrid builds will never be as good in PvE as a pure and it’s not viable enough without more CP. So it has no real place in minmaxing and only in RP. The changes just leveled the playing field.

    I agree that hybrids are not viable, I even mention it in the post. But the stamina return is immensely useful for roll dodging/breaking free in endgame pve solo content like veteran maelstrom arena and also pvp. As of now, to me, it feels like magicka dunmer are just a weaker magicka altmer. Giving them this utility would at the very least allow them to accept that as a cost for combat utility
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Great thread, I agree completely. Give Magicka sustain back to the caster race, and give off-stat sustain to the hybrid race. Makes perfect sense. I would lean toward 1750 for the Dunmer resources, no reason to bring them all the way down to 1500 since most Dunmer mages won’t even make use of the stamina return.
  • ThePainGuy
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    @twing1_

    I mentioned something similar to what you said, minutes after this weeks PTS notes went live. The new spellcharge on Altmer feels like it belongs to dunmer. Some people agreed and others didn't want it. I see you tweaked it on this thread for the sustain to come from damage. I agree with you, but I would add that utility to second passive. 1st passive should be max stats and I would only lower magicka and stamina to 1750 (1500 is too low). Second passive can be your new suggestion with fire resist and burning immunity. Third passive can have weapon/spell damage. Nice suggestion. I like that it gives dunmer some identity.

    However, I would not give altmer what you suggested. I actually would abandon the whole sustain department as a second passive for altmer. ZOS does not want altmer to have magicka sustain. And stamina sustain is a bit off for altmer from a lore perspective. Maybe the altmer can get increased chance to cause status effects (burning, chilled, concussed) by 50% (maybe even disease/poison for stamina high elfs). Or increase weapon enchantment potency by 10%. That was just some examples ive seen floating somewhere in forums.
  • twing1_
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    @ThePainGuy

    That's a very interesting idea about the increased status effects, i like that. I'll edit that into the original post in addition to moving the off-stat sustain to the resistance buff later on when I'm home.
  • grannas211
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    It’s a little upsetting because it feels like they want to change things but they are just shooting in the darkThese are the identities our characters have had for half of a decade and it’s very sobering to have them played with when it feels like no real change or balance is being attained, just shifting BIS races.

    I see what you did there
    Edited by grannas211 on February 8, 2019 5:58AM
  • Faulgor
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    I agree with the dilemma, but not necessarily the solution. For one, it seems clear that ZOS doesn't want sustain passives on races with damage bonuses. Also, it doesn't help Dunmer stay a good magicka DPS choice.

    Considering the lore as well, we face these issues:
    - Altmer are the most magically gifted race
    - Dunmer are good in Destruction, but not so much other magic schools
    - Dunmer are equally skilled in offensive combat
    - Neither race should have sustain on top of their damage capabilities
    - Dunmer should retain their magicka dps role
    - Altmer should retain their magicka excellency
    - both races should be distinct

    I think there are some solutions that cover all these.
    a) Replace Dunmer's Weapon/Spell Power with Weapon/Spell Penetration - This would be distinct from Altmer (boosting other sources of damage like proc sets, enchantments, poisons, and pets) and better reflect their offensive skills as it doesn't boost healing. The precise values (including max magicka/stamina) would have to be rebalanced to ensure comparable dps.
    b) Spellcharge: When you use a healing ability, restore [x] magicka. This can happen once every [y] seconds. - This would allow Altmer to retain their current functionality as healers, respect their lore and not improve their sustain as DDs. Alternatively, this could restore the highest resource instead of magicka.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • twing1_
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    @Faulgor Penetration on Dunmer is an interesting thought, although I think they are better off with spell/weapon damage because endgame builds can easily hit the penetration cap without speccing much into it, especially for magicka builds on account of the light armor passives (and zos wants to balance them for endgame). I also feel restricting spell recharge to healing skills is a bit limiting, as depending on the role someone plays they may not utilize this passive at all.
  • Nevzuavyer
    Nevzuavyer
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    b) Spellcharge: When you use a healing ability, restore [x] magicka. This can happen once every [y] seconds. - This would allow Altmer to retain their current functionality as healers, respect their lore and not improve their sustain as DDs. Alternatively, this could restore the highest resource instead of magicka.

    Actually it's pretty nice idea. It won't help DDs with sustain (and that what ZoS wants) but still healing role would be manageable on Altmer. +1

    Edited by Nevzuavyer on February 8, 2019 3:36PM
  • colossalvoids
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    The idea is pretty bad, nothing have changed since the last post. Basically Altmers will be firmly on top and Dunmeri even less appealing as stam/mag dd's,where the gap already exists (with new cp scaling we will see it even more if you're aware). Dunmer is flavor-less but can be at least a choice not only for Morrowind roleplay and now some people want the Red Year to come sooner. The only thing will be achieved with this is dark elves roll dodging with their new stamina return out of trials completely.

    Reduction in main pools will make the gap wider, so it's not even in consideration to lose some for this "flavor". You can read on a subject if curious and calculate it yourself.

    Btw this "endgame mag dd's in need of stam sustain" is really laughable and clearly shows zero competence in the subject. Even in vma, if you can't dodge enough on mag it's clearly a l2p thing, nothing more.
    Edited by colossalvoids on February 8, 2019 4:19PM
  • twing1_
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    @colossalvoids

    Since the last post, I've added substantial reasoning and explanation as to why I believe this to be a good change, particularly by drawing a detailed analytic comparison between the two races as competent Magicka DDs (currently identical except for 125 max magicka).

    As for the damage differential between the two, right now there is about a difference of ~11 adjusted spell damage (when you take into account cp % bonus and also major sorcery, which every good magicka DD should run). At the lowest end of my proposed changes (dropping Dunmer max resources to 1500), the difference in adjusted spell damage jumps up to ~47 (again taking into account cp calculations and major sorcery). A difference of ~47 adjusted spell damage doesn't seem game-breaking to me, especially considering how certain races are already separated by ~309 adjusted spell damage (see Breton vs. Altmer). While it is true that Bretons do have a unique bonus to help them counteract that (magicka sustain), as it currently stands on PTS, Dunmer are currently behind Altmer with absolutely no tradeoff. They are simply worse than Altmer by 125 max magicka. This post's intention is to bring attention to that, and hopefully give them some sort of bonus to justify their falling short of the Altmer race. I feel this is preferable to bumping up their max Magicka to identical levels of the Altmer (as your idea of balance would dictate), as this would only destroy the racial identity of the two races even further.

    Yes, in a perfectly balanced world, all races would have the exact same stats. But then what is the point of having different races? I feel different races were implemented in the game to give players different flavors of gameplay for each one. Right now, Dunmer and Altmer are failing to do that.
    Edited by twing1_ on February 8, 2019 5:59PM
  • ezio45
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    Yeah, as a Dunmer player, I dont want your offloaded stat regen. Feel free to keep it.

    But your more than happy for highelf it
  • ezio45
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    It has been noted in the comments that ZOS does not intend to give max resource sustain to races with damage bonuses

    THEN WHY DOES KHAJIIT HAVE A CRIT AND SUSTAIN

    And orcs has 2k stam, 200 dmg Stam as altmer but at least unflinchingly gives health which is actually useful

    Zos needs to quit with the generalized balancing rules...
    Edited by ezio45 on February 8, 2019 6:17PM
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Lol, thread in one sentence - buff altmer, make dunmer POS.
  • Silver_Strider
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    Personally, I felt Altmer's old Spell Recharge was perfectly fine before ZOS went and did what they did. I'd just return that passive (maybe even give it a slight buff up to 600 from 575) and it would've been a completely solid magic race choice between Altmer, Breton and Khajiit.

    As for Dunmer, how about making them deal 1/2/3% more damage to enemies that are currently afflicted with a status effect (Burned, Concussed, Poisoned, etc)? Drop their max resources down to 1500, slap on the damage buff to the Fire Resistance passive and if the damage is still too low, adjust the amount a little more until Dunmer is set to go.

    Both races become unique from one another while maintaining a more equal footing with each other in terms of balance.
    Argonian forever
  • twing1_
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    @MartiniDaniels Reducing Dunmer's max mag to 1500 would still put them approximately ~210 adjusted spell damage above Breton. That hardly qualifies as a POS race.

    In fact, in terms of raw magicka power (as the sum of max mag and spell damage), the hierarchy of magicka races with these changes implemented would be:
    Altmer
    Dunmer
    Breton
    Argonian
    Khajit

    The current hierarchy, for reference, is:
    Altmer
    Dunmer
    Breton
    Argonian
    Khajit

    This is a rather biased ordering, however, because it isn't based off of each race's average damage over time. That would require taking into account things like critical and sustain. Some of these races have unique benefits to these. Bretons have magicka sustain. Khajits have critical. Altmer have the highest raw magicka power (magicka and spell damage). What do dunmer bring to the table?

    Currently on PTS, Dunmers only offer the 2nd highest raw magicka power (max magicka + spell power).

    With these proposed changes, Dunmer would offer both the 2nd highest raw magicka power and unquestionably the best off-stat utility of all races.

    All I'm proposing is that the Dunmer be given something to strengthen their racial identity, while marginally taking away from areas that don't drastically change the current balance of the game.

    But the taking away is only part of my amateur attempt at maintaining balance while giving them this unique feel. This isn't a nerf Dunmer thread. For all I care, they can keep their current max resource pool if it turns out to be balanced that way. The important part to me is giving them this unique hybrid feel. I only thought that adding this would require a reduction somewhere else, but ultimately it's up to ZOS to decide.
    Edited by twing1_ on February 8, 2019 7:33PM
  • twing1_
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    @Silver_Strider

    I agree that would be a very nice way to balance the magicka dunmer side of things, but I fear that stamina Dunmers would not see nearly as large a benefit (after all, they are supposed to be competitive stamina builds as well).

    Status effects are easy to come by as a magicka user (weapon attacks with staffs have a chance to apply them, and all end game builds implement these in one way or another), but status effects are not built into any stamina weapons, nor most weapon abilities (poison injection is the only endgame-viable one that comes to mind). This would then rely on stamina dunmer to run poisons on their weapons or elemental enchants to receive the benefit of this passive, if their class abilities do not offer status effects (most don't, on the stamina side of things at least). And running these enchants/poisons could end up costing them major dps, as running these would not allow them to use berserker/absorb stamina enchants. Although, come to think of it, for the majority of endgame content there are often plenty magicka users in a group to apply these effects, but that would require group play and there are currently no other passives on any of the races that possess this requisite.

    I also feel it wouldn't suit their notoriety as skilled warrior-casters quite as well.

    But this is a nice alternative to consider. I'll edit it into the original post later.
    Edited by twing1_ on February 8, 2019 7:50PM
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Well, you understand that if you have 9k stamina and 43k magicka, situation where you have less magicka then stamina is almost non-existent.

    You are right that altmer and dunmer are basically the same now and as 4.3.2 they will perform better then khajiit on non-crit classes, and breton will be slightly behind in ideal raid conditions but easier to play due to easiness of sustain. So if you need to separate them further without becoming OP, we may return to fire damage theme. I mean reduce magicka to 1250, add 128 fire damage, something like that.
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    @MartiniDaniels

    Yes, in fact if you have 9k stamina and 43 k magicka it would be impossible to restore magicka with my proposed changes to the dunmer.

    If the maximum (not current) magicka is higher than the maximum stamina, the trait would restore stamina.

    If the maximum stamina were higher than maximum magicka (stamina builds, for instance), it would restore magicka.

    This is the point. It is to provide off-stat utility and not main-stat. This is the hybrid feel I desire and the racial identity I am pushing for.

    Or were you referring to the Altmer passive?

    Either way, the altmer passive should also be based off of maximums and not current values. But yes, there has been talk of giving Altmers magicka sustain making them too OP. That is why I continue to update the original post with alternative ideas in this regard. I believe the two that have been discussed so far are:
    1. increase chance to apply status effects
    2. when activating a healing ability (damage dealers don't use these often) restore [X] magicka occurring once every [y] seconds
    Edited by twing1_ on February 8, 2019 8:05PM
  • Witar
    Witar
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    Dunmer's extra 2k stam is nice in pvp yo. With shacklebreaker i can rolldodge quite often on magsorc. Think that dunmer have it better then altmer when it comes to racial flavor.
    It cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
    Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt,
    It lies behind stars and under hills,
    And empty holes it fills,
    It comes first and follows after,
    Ends life, kills laughter.
  • colossalvoids
    colossalvoids
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    @colossalvoids

    Since the last post, I've added substantial reasoning and explanation as to why I believe this to be a good change, particularly by drawing a detailed analytic comparison between the two races as competent Magicka DDs (currently identical except for 125 max magicka).

    As for the damage differential between the two, right now there is about a difference of ~11 adjusted spell damage (when you take into account cp % bonus and also major sorcery, which every good magicka DD should run). At the lowest end of my proposed changes (dropping Dunmer max resources to 1500), the difference in adjusted spell damage jumps up to ~47 (again taking into account cp calculations and major sorcery). A difference of ~47 adjusted spell damage doesn't seem game-breaking to me, especially considering how certain races are already separated by ~309 adjusted spell damage (see Breton vs. Altmer). While it is true that Bretons do have a unique bonus to help them counteract that (magicka sustain), as it currently stands on PTS, Dunmer are currently behind Altmer with absolutely no tradeoff. They are simply worse than Altmer by 125 max magicka. This post's intention is to bring attention to that, and hopefully give them some sort of bonus to justify their falling short of the Altmer race. I feel this is preferable to bumping up their max Magicka to identical levels of the Altmer (as your idea of balance would dictate), as this would only destroy the racial identity of the two races even further.

    Yes, in a perfectly balanced world, all races would have the exact same stats. But then what is the point of having different races? I feel different races were implemented in the game to give players different flavors of gameplay for each one. Right now, Dunmer and Altmer are failing to do that.

    I personally see it as a lack of substance. But that's my bias, as I main one and it's actually stamina. And after dw enchants nerf every single point of stamina would help sustain. On magicka side I see no problem, I will just racechange on your version of high elf and slot berserker instead of absorb and that's it.

    Point is that the race now should be balanced not only around mag dps, but stamina too. If gap will be so wide there will be no choice, that's called underperforming race. Now dunmer is fine, he can perform and have nothing really useless. But with proposed changes it would and with cost of sacrificing max stats. Altmers was in need of removal regen component but it was replaced by unneeded one, ofc it need to be changed probably,( if it wasn't pvp dark deal sneak buff).
    Dunmers need to lose some op stats to be in line? No, they already are in line. So any cutting is unnecessary movement into the grave.

    Quite strange to say that dunmers have less with no tradeoff but willing to make it even less with again no tradeoff.
    My idea of balance already implemented almost in every racial change now, dunmeri included. My only problem is Imperial, bosmer pen dodge and surprise - altmer passive that is useless. I can agree almost to anything presented by reps and devs, but the community on the other hand... Nope.

    If you don't see a difference feel free to check other passives, it will give a hint.
  • twing1_
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    @witar

    I agree, the extra stam is nice but it pales in comparison to certain other racial defining characteristics like the Bretons magicka sustain or the Khajits critical chance.

    I'm simply proposing adding to Dunmer passives a source of off-stat sustain (as a mag dunmer this would be stamina sustain) in addition to the increased max mag/stam (although these would be nerfed to 1500 or 1750, down from 1875 for balance) to complement this style of gameplay even better and add to that unique feel.

    On the altmer side of things, they would receive a passive more suited for their magical talents. Some of the ones being discussed are:
    -limited mag sustain
    -increased chance to apply status effects
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    @MartiniDaniels

    Yes, in fact if you have 9k stamina and 43 k magicka it would be impossible to restore magicka with my proposed changes to the dunmer.

    If the maximum (not current) magicka is higher than the maximum stamina, the trait would restore stamina.

    If the maximum stamina were higher than maximum magicka (stamina builds, for instance), it would restore magicka.

    This is the point. It is to provide off-stat utility and not main-stat. This is the hybrid feel I desire and the racial identity I am pushing for.

    Or were you referring to the Altmer passive?

    Either way, the altmer passive should also be based off of maximums and not current values. But yes, there has been talk of giving Altmers magicka sustain making them too OP. That is why I continue to update the original post with alternative ideas in this regard. I believe the two that have been discussed so far are:
    1. increase chance to apply status effects
    2. when activating a healing ability (damage dealers don't use these often) restore [X] magicka occurring once every [y] seconds

    I understand that you have good intentions, but you are pushing dunmer to hybrid style which is not working in PVE and only applicable to PVP, while majority of dunmers are PVE magdps. So you are making altmer stronger which will enrage khajiits and bretons and push all dunmer players to PVP. No wonder that your propositions will be opposed by anybody then altmers.
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