susmitds wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

Let me put it this way, when the moons align (pun intended), Khajiit is the strongest of all races in terms of raw damage. With 80%+ crit Impales and Bow proc, the DPS chart goes flying, especially with Shadow, the DPS chart will go beyond what you might have ever to expected to parse in those conditions. Remember though that is not the only direction, it can go though. Sub 50% crit rates do also happen.

Crit definitely works both ways, a high crit build could have an unlucky parse, just like a low crit build could have a lucky one. Statistically speaking, the build with about 50% crit will show the most variance. When it gets close to 100% or close to 0% there will be very little “noise” in the data. Khajiit parses should be slightly more repeatable than other races since their crit is up in the 80%+ range. There could still be many other elements if RNG at work here though, crit isn’t the only source of variation.

To clarify my earlier points. I actually have no problem with Khajiit being top raid DPS with good Warhorn uptimes and sustain support. The part I don’t like is that Altmer falls behind in nearly all scenarios. As soon as sustain support starts to fade, Altmer falls even farther behind Khajiit because they at least get 85 Mag regen.

IMO it should be as it was last week on PTS:
- Full raid buffs, Warhorns, Orbs, Worm, Ele Drain -> Khajiit top DPS
- Some group support, maybe Ele Drain and an occasional Orb or Warhorn -> Altmer best DPS
- Solo or uncoordinated group -> Breton exceeds others with its sustain and defensive bonuses

If not exactly this, then at least some type of conditional niche for each. Stamina return on Altmer is not helpful.

On the stamina DPS side the imbalance is actually much worse, with Orc above everything else pretty much always.

susmitds wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On stamplar all my tests are showing Khajiit as the top race. Especially with shadow.

Khajiit work very well with templars, because of the Piercing Spear passive. It has been known since start of PTS and this one has campaigned to change it to + crit chance rather than +crit damage or similar effect.
Don't want to be BIS more than Khajiit want a name change to Bismarck.

That would have other effects as well. First, Magplars will gain more Healing power, and healing/tankiness in general is a major pain points in PvP. Might even get Magplar healing as a whole nerfed later down the line due to this.
PvEwise, Khajiit Stamplars will still probably be very very good, probably even BiS, due to the fact that on the stamina side, only Khajiit effectively gains enough with Shadow to beat Lover, meaning the new crit chance will also affect Shadow and give Khajiits an indirect boost to DPS.

This one knows. The tools for fine tuning of the meta has arrived.


Questing in coldharbor sounds nice as long as you avoid the hollow city.

sage2000 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Only very few people said that Altmer are mediocre at dpsing. And this is true for solo or dungeon dps. Raids are something different, because most of your weaknesses get carried away by others. Without that, Altmer is okay, but not great.

And now, uh uh, Altmer seems to be the top Magicka DPS... what a surprise.

You're cherry picking to overstate things:

- with raid buffs and shadow mundus: first place
- with raid buffs and no shadow: second to last place
- solo parse: middle of the pack
- true resource potential: 3rd place

All of that data taken together does not make them "top Magicka DPS". It makes them middle of the pack. Or at best top under ideal conditions, not so in other cases.

This is all fine and reasonably balanced. If this is how things end up in the final product it will be fine. But you're going into multiple threads now for the sole purpose of smugly being a D to people, and here you're overstating things by cherry picking the data. You might consider getting your facts straight...

I'm as much cherry picking as the ones who said "Altmer will be useless now".

We're talking about differences of ~ 500 DPS in the "worst" cases, in some it's 100-200. "Middle of the pack", yes. That's cherry picking.

By the way, thanks to the OP for investing time to test things out!

sage2000 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm as much cherry picking as the ones who said "Altmer will be useless now".

Exactly. you are now morally and factually equivalent to those people. Your smugness campaign can stop now.

Haha, you actually think anyone cares about being "morally superior" to people on an internet forum? I'll continue to be smug towards hysterical Altmer players.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Only very few people said that Altmer are mediocre at dpsing. And this is true for solo or dungeon dps. Raids are something different, because most of your weaknesses get carried away by others. Without that, Altmer is okay, but not great.

*lol*

Actually all the complainers (okay, only 99.9%) were referring "Altmer were just Nr. 2 and Nr. 3 in 4.3.1 parses, they will be the BOTTOM LINE NOW!!!!!" The lore reason was just added to validate the argument.

And now, uh uh, Altmer seems to be the top Magicka DPS... what a surprise. But I guess the tests must be wrong because they do not support my hurt Altmer feelings. /s

No. They said that Spell Recharge is useless in pve and that it does not fit Altmer at all.
This is true.

Mainly MLGproPlayer or what his name is, pointed out over and over that Altmer is like the 3rd position.
You can not blame him, because unlike OP, he did not have people who help him get raid buffs etc. And from a solo player perspective, Altmer doesn't look too good.

Dracane wrote: »

[
Mainly MLGproPlayer or what his name is, pointed out over and over that Altmer is like the 3rd position.
You can not blame him, because unlike OP, he did not have people who help him get raid buffs etc. And from a solo player perspective, Altmer doesn't look too good.

So all of a sudden it's about solo play now? Talk about moving the goalposts lol

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

[
Mainly MLGproPlayer or what his name is, pointed out over and over that Altmer is like the 3rd position.
You can not blame him, because unlike OP, he did not have people who help him get raid buffs etc. And from a solo player perspective, Altmer doesn't look too good.

So all of a sudden it's about solo play now? Talk about moving the goalposts lol

Partially. What I was trying to say, is that the person I was talking about, based his concerns around solo play. Because that's the only way he was able to test things. He had no crew helping him out.

And I think this is a more realistic scenario.
Even your average craglorn trial group won't be well organized. There will be, if at all, a low warhorn uptime and many other buffs will either be missing or will be available sporadically. Only very few players are blessed to be in an organized raid guild. They are a minority.

So for the majority of people, these tests will be irrelevant. For most people in fact.
If ZoS wants to balance everything around perfect high end trial groups, be it thus. I don't like it.

At this point, I wonder if you can favorite a user to get notifications when they post.

templesus wrote: »

I’m confused, why are you using absorb stamina backbar on certain races? That in itself makes redguard and wood elf look stronger then they really are, because in reality not a single race runs absorb stam on back bar. They ALL run Berserker. My solo stamplar 6mil tests I don’t drop below 30% stam.

It might be the front bar enchantment nerf that caused them to move absorb stamina to the back bar. It's still a decent trade, the glyph could be making 2300 dps, which would be around 4.5% of the DPS. The Redguard/Bosmer berserker glyph only affects 80% of the damage because of the huge proc set, so it only boosts overall DPS by around 7.5%. Orcs, Dunmer and Khajiit lose 3% of their DPS to pick up Regen similar to a Bosmer/Redguard. It's not a bad trade, but also explains whey they're dealing more DPS.

*Edit* Gold food could set them up with more Regen at less cost to DPS.


Mages don't have a huge proc set, so Breton looks pretty good with a Berserk glyph. And there are a load of magicka multipliers for a magblade, not so many Stamina multipliers for Stamblade.

.

Thanks so much for the testing, great job!! Interested to see what happens to these numbers with scaling and other classes in the mix.

I still, however, think the new Spellcharge is terrible and makes no sense.

zaria wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Stamina Raid-DPS Best Race - Orc beats redguard/bosmer/khajiit for over 1k DPS
Stamina Solo-Sustained DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place redguard, shadow khajiit, bosmer for almost 1k DPS
Stamina True Resource Potential DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place shadow khajiit, dunmer, redguard for over 1k DPS

All while casually rocking 1k more HP, 10% extra speed, 12% speed reduction, health restore, etc

Balance......

@Alcast @Checkmath @Joy_Division

Oh no! A whole 1,000 DPS?! Goodness, looks like only Orcs in can play the game now. /s

Note that this is on an 60K parse, if you do 30K its 500.

Orc is now in the very dangerous setting of being BIS, something this one is very happy Khajiit escaped.
You hold 50K tel var, now its getting back to base
Upside, this is the stuff Orcs are made for, push trough or die as an legend.
An Khajiit would:

Exactly. Orc might be SLIGHTLY over tuned. I’d take a loss of 500 Stam to keep the health, extra health is an integral part and reason to play an orc. Otherwise it’s just another redguard. But if we don’t keep it honest, people are in danger of ruining this race because of how badly they are twisting facts. Most of them won’t even lift a finger to get on PTS themselves either.