Stamina/Magicka Raid Warhorn DPS+Solo Sustain DPS Tests+Graphs with CP Stat Boost Correction (4.3.2)

Dottzgaming · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Stamina Raid-DPS Best Race - Orc beats redguard/bosmer/khajiit for over 1k DPS
Stamina Solo-Sustained DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place redguard, shadow khajiit, bosmer for almost 1k DPS
Stamina True Resource Potential DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place shadow khajiit, dunmer, redguard for over 1k DPS

All while casually rocking 1k more HP, 10% extra speed, 12% speed reduction, health restore, etc

Balance......

Orc DPS is not the issue, what I gather, Orc 1K health is. Getting the highest DPS by a few percentage is not much considering Orc is supposed to be a glass cannon. To quote you,
quote="nsmurfer;c-5805272"]
All while casually rocking 1k more HP

is the real issue

Either that has to be reduced or the stamina a little bit. I'll have a chat with the devs and reps about this, since that is something we have noticed too.[/quote]

yeah i think maybe a small change to stam - like -250 or -500 might be enough to do the trick. Doesnt have to be anything incredible i dont think!

IronWooshu · February 2019

I wish you would show tests with a non optimal race as well to see the difference in damage as this was one of the reasons for the racial changes by ZOS to make it so it's not so punishing on players who select Nord and want to play a mage.

I know the 1% wont ever play a nom optimal race but I would like to see the numbers a non optimal race brings for my own trials.

@susmitds

susmitds · February 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

I wish you would show tests with a non optimal race as well to see the difference in damage as this was one of the reasons for the racial changes by ZOS to make it so it's not so punishing on players who select Nord and want to play a mage.

I know the 1% wont ever play a nom optimal race but I would like to see the numbers a non optimal race brings for my own trials.

@susmitds

@IronWooshu I did have plans for that but talked it with guildies to have it done later class wise when CP scaling actually works.

Kr3do · February 2019

@MLGProPlayer some interesting data here

IronWooshu · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I wish you would show tests with a non optimal race as well to see the difference in damage as this was one of the reasons for the racial changes by ZOS to make it so it's not so punishing on players who select Nord and want to play a mage.

I know the 1% wont ever play a nom optimal race but I would like to see the numbers a non optimal race brings for my own trials.

@susmitds

@IronWooshu I did have plans for that but talked it with guildies to have it done later class wise when CP scaling actually works.

Awesome thanks, keep up the amazing work.

WrathOfInnos · February 2019

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

Ajax_22 · February 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

I wish you would show tests with a non optimal race as well to see the difference in damage as this was one of the reasons for the racial changes by ZOS to make it so it's not so punishing on players who select Nord and want to play a mage.

I know the 1% wont ever play a nom optimal race but I would like to see the numbers a non optimal race brings for my own trials.

@susmitds

Their first tests contained a no racial run, which is the same as an unoptimized race. I assume they didn't do it this time due to PTS bugs with stats, and they will run one next week with every class.

The reason ZOS made the change was so there would be more variety for every role. This has been largely achieved. We now have between four and five choices for Stam and Mag DPS all within 1K DPS of each other.

Ajax_22 · February 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

You also aren't seeing CP correctly scale with racials, which will push Altmer higher.

Skwor · February 2019

This thread can not be right, we have been told over and over again that the altmers are the worst.

Imagine that.

IronWooshu · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Stamina Raid-DPS Best Race - Orc beats redguard/bosmer/khajiit for over 1k DPS
Stamina Solo-Sustained DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place redguard, shadow khajiit, bosmer for almost 1k DPS
Stamina True Resource Potential DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place shadow khajiit, dunmer, redguard for over 1k DPS

All while casually rocking 1k more HP, 10% extra speed, 12% speed reduction, health restore, etc

Balance......

Orc DPS is not the issue, what I gather, Orc 1K health is. Getting the highest DPS by a few percentage is not much considering Orc is supposed to be a glass cannon. To quote you,

nsmurfer wrote: »

All while casually rocking 1k more HP

is the real issue as it goes against the glass cannon approach that ZOS seems to going for.

I think this is where ZOS has gone wrong with the Stamina races creating identity. They want the Orc to be a brawler but a glass cannon? I feel these changes to Orc was PVP specific in mind because they are the best race hands down for PVP, they are also in directly best race for PVE.

They need to do either or...

Glass Cannon
or
Brawler

If they go Brawler like they said they can increase health by 1000 making them 2k health but reduce stamina to 500. This would make for interesting choices for Stamina races as you would have Redguard and Bosmer as the higher stam pool races and Nord and Orc as the brute brawlers all the while staying close to each other PVE DPS wise.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

susmitds · February 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

Let me put it this way, when the moons align (pun intended), Khajiit is the strongest of all races in terms of raw damage. With 80%+ crit Impales and Bow proc, the DPS chart goes flying, especially with Shadow, the DPS chart will go beyond what you might have ever to expected to parse in those conditions. Remember though that is not the only direction, it can go though. Sub 50% crit rates do also happen.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

You also aren't seeing CP correctly scale with racials, which will push Altmer higher.

I kind of, made up for that with green food, so the effect won't be felt that much. I will be surprised if it is more than 0.15% DPS than this. Then again, I will test with higher samples during that time for a more accurate value.

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2019

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Based on these results we can assume Altmer will increase their lead, and Dunmer will pass Kajit once the stat scaling gets corrected. All in all very tight race for number one.

That is the thing; all races are close to one another. I would like to now see actual testing on each class with each race regardless if the race is optimal for a specific build or not. This way we can see how much variance is between the worst race and best race for each class and race combo.

This way the devs can use that to further adjust the game as needed.

Ajax_22 · February 2019

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Based on these results we can assume Altmer will increase their lead, and Dunmer will pass Kajit once the stat scaling gets corrected. All in all very tight race for number one.

That is the thing; all races are close to one another. I would like to now see actual testing on each class with each race regardless if the race is optimal for a specific build or not. This way we can see how much variance is between the worst race and best race for each class and race combo.

This way the devs can use that to further adjust the game as needed.

That is why they are going to do a no racial test. There is no point in running five or six unoptimized races through ten to twenty parces when they will all result in the same average DPS.

zaria · February 2019

kathandira wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Stamina Raid-DPS Best Race - Orc beats redguard/bosmer/khajiit for over 1k DPS
Stamina Solo-Sustained DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place redguard, shadow khajiit, bosmer for almost 1k DPS
Stamina True Resource Potential DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place shadow khajiit, dunmer, redguard for over 1k DPS

All while casually rocking 1k more HP, 10% extra speed, 12% speed reduction, health restore, etc

Balance......

@Alcast @Checkmath @Joy_Division

Oh no! A whole 1,000 DPS?! Goodness, looks like only Orcs in can play the game now. /s

Note that this is on an 60K parse, if you do 30K its 500.

Orc is now in the very dangerous setting of being BIS, something this one is very happy Khajiit escaped.
You hold 50K tel var, now its getting back to base

Upside, this is the stuff Orcs are made for, push trough or die as an legend.
An Khajiit would:

Ajax_22 · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’m seeing Khajiit with higher peak DPS than Altmer, being the only one that broke 64k, and did so multiple times with different Mundus Stones. They also have better magicka sustain and more health and stamina. Not seeing any reason to choose Altmer over Khajiit at this point. Breton looks good for solo.

You also aren't seeing CP correctly scale with racials, which will push Altmer higher.

I kind of, made up for that with green food, so the effect won't be felt that much. I will be surprised if it is more than 0.15% DPS than this. Then again, I will test with higher samples during that time for a more accurate value.

I'd have thought it would be a little higher than that since the passives are missing out on the CP increase and all other percent increases.

What_In_Tarnation · February 2019

Isn't cp scaling bugged atm, so the results might be changed a bit?
thanks for testing nonetheless

Faulgor · February 2019

susmitds wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Stamina Raid-DPS Best Race - Orc beats redguard/bosmer/khajiit for over 1k DPS
Stamina Solo-Sustained DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place redguard, shadow khajiit, bosmer for almost 1k DPS
Stamina True Resource Potential DPS Best Race - Orc beats 2nd place shadow khajiit, dunmer, redguard for over 1k DPS

All while casually rocking 1k more HP, 10% extra speed, 12% speed reduction, health restore, etc

Balance......

Orc DPS is not the issue, what I gather, Orc 1K health is. Getting the highest DPS by a few percentage is not much considering Orc is supposed to be a glass cannon. To quote you,

nsmurfer wrote: »

All while casually rocking 1k more HP

is the real issue as it goes against the glass cannon approach that ZOS seems to going for.

Per the dev comments they aren't glass cannons though, they are brawlers. They are supposed to be beefier than other stamina DDs (safe for Nord and Imperial perhaps). If they removed something from them it should be some stamina, even more so because they have always been a tanking option so far.
I'm not sure why they overshot their stat bonuses so much, as all suggestions basically came down to 1000 health and stamina (from 500 previously). But if they're losing health again, I riot. x(

templesus · February 2019

On stamplar all my tests are showing Khajiit as the top race. Especially with shadow.

Masel · February 2019

This whole discussion ties to a bigger issue though. Sustain is likely undervalued because it can easily be compensated for. Dubious throne and artaeum food basically provide too much without a real trade-off in damage.

You lose 2k stamina but gain over 300 recovery, and races like orc and khajiit have health that cover most of the health loss already.

So it's not necessarily the stats orc has in general, but the fact that sustain can easily be obtained elsewhere without a real tradeoff.

Azyle1 · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

This whole discussion ties to a bigger issue though. Sustain is likely undervalued because it can easily be compensated for. Dubious throne and artaeum food basically provide too much without a real trade-off in damage.

You lose 2k stamina but gain over 300 recovery, and races like orc and khajiit have health that cover most of the health loss already.

So it's not necessarily the stats orc has in general, but the fact that sustain can easily be obtained elsewhere without a real tradeoff.

Yes but nerfing sustain will mean Redguard will just be the go to race again.
Not saying that is your suggestion or anything.

susmitds · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

On stamplar all my tests are showing Khajiit as the top race. Especially with shadow.

Yeah, I didn't specifically test that but that should be the case. With proper CP scaling, Orcs will beat non Shadow Khajiit in Stamplar but Shadow Khajiit will still beat Orc soundly.

Masel · February 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

This whole discussion ties to a bigger issue though. Sustain is likely undervalued because it can easily be compensated for. Dubious throne and artaeum food basically provide too much without a real trade-off in damage.

You lose 2k stamina but gain over 300 recovery, and races like orc and khajiit have health that cover most of the health loss already.

So it's not necessarily the stats orc has in general, but the fact that sustain can easily be obtained elsewhere without a real tradeoff.

Yes but nerfing sustain will mean Redguard will just be the go to race again.
Not saying that is your suggestion or anything.

I don't wanna nerf sustain, I wanna get a balance in. These foods are the reason that orc is so dominant. They can get to a decent health pool and get more sustain just by switching food.

zaria · February 2019

Ajax_22 wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Based on these results we can assume Altmer will increase their lead, and Dunmer will pass Kajit once the stat scaling gets corrected. All in all very tight race for number one.

That is the thing; all races are close to one another. I would like to now see actual testing on each class with each race regardless if the race is optimal for a specific build or not. This way we can see how much variance is between the worst race and best race for each class and race combo.

This way the devs can use that to further adjust the game as needed.

That is why they are going to do a no racial test. There is no point in running five or six unoptimized races through ten to twenty parces when they will all result in the same average DPS.

This an Bosmer, nord and Orc would have the same magplar dps.
As an raid leader I would pick an Orc doing 40K as magblade over an Dunmer or Khajiit doing 40K simply as the Orc is more tanky. Bosmer roll dodge off the edge on last boss in AA

Happened on an healer once.

susmitds · February 2019

Masel wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

This whole discussion ties to a bigger issue though. Sustain is likely undervalued because it can easily be compensated for. Dubious throne and artaeum food basically provide too much without a real trade-off in damage.

You lose 2k stamina but gain over 300 recovery, and races like orc and khajiit have health that cover most of the health loss already.

So it's not necessarily the stats orc has in general, but the fact that sustain can easily be obtained elsewhere without a real tradeoff.

Yes but nerfing sustain will mean Redguard will just be the go to race again.
Not saying that is your suggestion or anything.

I don't wanna nerf sustain, I wanna get a balance in. These foods are the reason that orc is so dominant. They can get to a decent health pool and get more sustain just by switching food.

I think the real issue comes from the fact the Stamina side was never balanced with this high damage boost from races in mind.
On the magicka side, we had 9/10% Magicka increase + 7,2,2/4,4,4% Static elemental damage increase, which was essentially much larger than Stamina side's largest damage of 8% weapon crit. Suddenly, devs want to balance damage boost for both sides equally (which I suspect is due to Dunmer passive's mirror effect they are pushing). This is resulting in these conditions.

danno8 · February 2019

Edziu wrote: »

but why ffs it is tested only on nb? especially on stamina dps
on stamina dps nb is just overpowered monster to rest classes
everyone always state dps on stamina from nb while jsut ignoring weaker classes and as everyone see how high dps is on stamblade then nobody even look at other classes where most of them are far away behind stamblade dps

could you also try these dps tests for example on stamina sorc dk or templar? at all I heared stamden isnt that far away with dps behind stamblade but from most people I hear how rest 3 stamina classes are really far far away from just stamblade

(or atleast someone could maybe explain me this if Im wrong please)

Because it takes forever to test and people, I assume, have lives to live outside of ESO-PTS testing.

Dracane · February 2019

From what I gather, most people complain about Altmer from a lore perspective. From that point of view, Altmer is quite atrocious at the moment.

Only very few people said that Altmer are mediocre at dpsing. And this is true for solo or dungeon dps. Raids are something different, because most of your weaknesses get carried away by others. Without that, Altmer is okay, but not great.

zaria · February 2019

templesus wrote: »

On stamplar all my tests are showing Khajiit as the top race. Especially with shadow.

Khajiit work very well with templars, because of the Piercing Spear passive. It has been known since start of PTS and this one has campaigned to change it to + crit chance rather than +crit damage or similar effect.
Don't want to be BIS more than Khajiit want a name change to Bismarck.

susmitds · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On stamplar all my tests are showing Khajiit as the top race. Especially with shadow.

Khajiit work very well with templars, because of the Piercing Spear passive. It has been known since start of PTS and this one has campaigned to change it to + crit chance rather than +crit damage or similar effect.
Don't want to be BIS more than Khajiit want a name change to Bismarck.

That would have other effects as well. First, Magplars will gain more Healing power, and healing/tankiness in general is a major pain points in PvP. Might even get Magplar healing as a whole nerfed later down the line due to this.
PvEwise, Khajiit Stamplars will still probably be very very good, probably even BiS, due to the fact that on the stamina side, only Khajiit effectively gains enough with Shadow to beat Lover, meaning the new crit chance will also affect Shadow and give Khajiits an indirect boost to DPS.

Seraphayel · February 2019

Dracane wrote: »

Only very few people said that Altmer are mediocre at dpsing. And this is true for solo or dungeon dps. Raids are something different, because most of your weaknesses get carried away by others. Without that, Altmer is okay, but not great.

*lol*

Actually all the complainers (okay, only 99.9%) were referring "Altmer were just Nr. 2 and Nr. 3 in 4.3.1 parses, they will be the BOTTOM LINE NOW!!!!!" The lore reason was just added to validate the argument.

And now, uh uh, Altmer seems to be the top Magicka DPS... what a surprise. But I guess the tests must be wrong because they do not support my hurt Altmer feelings. /s

nsmurfer · February 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Only very few people said that Altmer are mediocre at dpsing. And this is true for solo or dungeon dps. Raids are something different, because most of your weaknesses get carried away by others. Without that, Altmer is okay, but not great.

*lol*

Actually all the complainers (okay, only 99.9%) were referring "Altmer were just Nr. 2 and Nr. 3 in 4.3.1 parses, they will be the BOTTOM LINE NOW!!!!!" The lore reason was just added to validate the argument.

And now, uh uh, Altmer seems to be the top Magicka DPS... what a surprise. But I guess the tests must be wrong because they do not support my hurt Altmer feelings. /s

Damn straight.