John_Falstaff wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Another point that needs to be made:

If ZOS wanted to nerf Altmer (it still makes zero sense considering they were not overperforming by any metric, but let's roll with their "logic"), giving them a MAGICKA utility skill would have greatly reduced the amount of backlash. The fact that ZOS added insult to injury by: (1) nerfing the class and (2) giving us a STAMINA utility skill is half the reason why everyone is so angry.

The problem I see is why make an Altmer then you has Dunmer outside of the look, yes it has 150 less magic, extra stamina who is handy, might well be more useful in pvp than the Altmer sustain on magic build.
And you can convert class to stamina if meta changes or you are bored.

Altmer has 125 less magicka than Dunmer. That comes out to around 12 spell damage (no, that's not a typo, 125 magicka is the equivalent of 12 spell damage). The only real attribute Altmer have that Dunmer don't is the 215 stamina regen.

Did you mean that altmer has more magicka than dunmer, perchance? Altmer has 2000, dunmer 1875.

Yes. Typo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , well, thing is, there is a discrepancy between "known for" and "are on average". Yes, altmers are famed for magic (and Canadians for hockey), but stereotype of an altmers in the eyes of other races is not the measurement of the sum of their qualities. When someone tries to paint a person with the only description of "has a big nose", then what comes out is a caricature - huge nose and nothing else. On its face, thalmor are warriors too. Plenty of them around, running with swords and even drilling poor students in swordsmanship in Auridon. I think that having some stamina sustain reflects that.

This is TES lore. Races have always been designed around their archetypal characteristics.

And again, Altmer is currently the only race that goes against that lore. It doens't make sense.

If your argument is that racial stereotypes are irrelevant, then we shouldn't have racial passives at all.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , you're confusing archetype and stereotype again. ^^ As definition goes:

• archetype - the original pattern or model from which copies are made; a prototype ... an assumed ideal pattern.
• stereotype - a preconceived and oversimplified idea of the characteristics which typify a person, situation, etc.; an attitude based on such a preconception. Also, a person who appears to conform closely to the idea of a type.

You currently want altmer passives to reflect their stereotype. Archetype is a much less simplified concept than stereotype, and this is what we start seeing right now in racial passives. They're not perfect, but it's a good change.

And once again, returning to damage - there is no ground whatsoever to beat the alarm until PTS is properly updated (I think it's still missing CP scaling changes) and parses are flocking in. Altmers got extra 400 magicka (khajiits got much less), and for all we know, Shadow change may be in balance with other stones.

We haven't "started seeing it". Altmer and Khajiit are the only races to deviate from their racial archetypes.

Altmer:

The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races, and they are very resistant to diseases. However, they are also somewhat vulnerable to magicka, fire, frost, and shock, which makes them very weak against their strongest point - magic. They are among the longest living and most intelligent races of Tamriel, and they often become powerful magic users due to both their magical affinity and the many years they may devote to their studies.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer

Khajiit:

Khajiit are cat-like people who come from Elsweyr, known for high intelligence and agility.[1] These traits make them very good thieves and acrobats, but Khajiit are also fearsome warriors. However, they are rarely known to be mages.[2] Khajiit mostly stay on land, but piracy and skooma trade does draw some to work as sailors.[3][4]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

An archetype is a base model. There is nothing in the lore to suggest that Altmer, as a race, are shifting to exhibit more "hybrid" characteristics. Their culture, and natural affinities, still very much predispose them to the magical arts only. TES races have always represented that.

Again, if we are going to move away from racial archetypes/stereotypes, then we don't need races anymore. But that's not going to happen because this is TES and the rich racial lore is a huge part of the series.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , you're confusing archetype and stereotype again. ^^ As definition goes:

• archetype - the original pattern or model from which copies are made; a prototype ... an assumed ideal pattern.
• stereotype - a preconceived and oversimplified idea of the characteristics which typify a person, situation, etc.; an attitude based on such a preconception. Also, a person who appears to conform closely to the idea of a type.

You currently want altmer passives to reflect their stereotype. Archetype is a much less simplified concept than stereotype, and this is what we start seeing right now in racial passives. They're not perfect, but it's a good change.

And once again, returning to damage - there is no ground whatsoever to beat the alarm until PTS is properly updated (I think it's still missing CP scaling changes) and parses are flocking in. Altmers got extra 400 magicka (khajiits got much less), and for all we know, Shadow change may be in balance with other stones.

@MLGProPlayer is right though. Altmers are the last of all races that should have a stamina component in their race passives. If you need a magicka race that also has stamina component it should be Bretons as they are a hybrid race anyway.

As for "beating the alarm", some things don't need testing b/c logical reasoning is enough to identify them as inadequate / flawed. Forcing stamina onto the most magic-oriented race in the game while allowing pure forms in other races is one of them. Most Altmers will never need that stamina sustain passive. People chose Altmers because they wanted to create a magicka-based character and Altmers are the most magic-affine race in the game and lore.

I am not even arguing against it b/c it would hurt me ... in fact, as a PvP player I will finally be able to drop Shackle Breaker and get some new gear. But for pretty much everyone else it sucks and this is not what people paid/signed up for back in the days when they created their Altmers. Many people heavily identify with their (main) characters and their place in the lore. And making the most magical race partially a stamina race, i.e. a hybrid race, just does not fit at all ... especially since Altmers are so much about purity and perfection.

It's either a poor attempt of racial balancing or of a money grab!

There is a bare-minimum of sustain that you need. If you can cover that with your racial passives you are able to focus your entire gear towards spell damage.

ZOS was on the right track with their initial attempt to balance the races based on set bonuses. This method allowed to complement your character with gear. For example 258 = 2 spell damage set bonuses (of 129). If you'd give Bretons 258 magicka regen = 2 magicka regeneration set bonuses (of 129) in return, then both races can achieve the same total stats by simply choosing gear with bonuses in the other stat.

This makes racial bonuses unique, but at the same time balanced to a point where race choice doesn't really matter - for specific races and roles ofc.

But by giving a pure-magicka build race like Altmers stam regen, a stat that is not needed most of the time, while not doing the same to the other pure magicka race will inevitably lead to a disparity in final stats and thus in performance.

There is 2 ways in which such a thing is not balance-breaking:
1) That "funky" passive is actually as useful as that of the other race(s) - i.e. you always need stam regen in all scenarios
2) The other races got a passive that is equally useless and they pretty much cancel each other out on the top level (like the experience boost passives to the individual weapon skill lines: they don't affect your endgame performance)

And no, you don't need to test everything. This is what logic is for!

Blowing off person A's head kills person A.
Your head has the same attributes as that of person A.
Will you try to blow off your head? I mean according to you, you will have to test if it will be deadly for you too.
Judging by the fact that you are still around, you also believe not everything needs testing and that in many cases logic is enough to deduce/predict the outcome.

This may be a very graphic / extreme example, but I wanted to make sure you'd get my point and not start nit-picking again.

As for stereotype vs. archtype: I used neither words in my previous post. But at any rate, Altmers are both Archtypes (ideals magical race in ESO lore) and Stereotypes (typically mages) and people chose them for both. And in both cases players chose them for exactly that reason and in neither case does being a hybrid race make sense.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Elric_Ashborn , so that's why I see physically fit and trained thalmor with swords all over Auridon... I don't think we should confuse altmers with faerie folk living in broughs and doing nothing but magic.

The races represent the average racial archetype. This is how it is for every other race. There is no race known more for magic and less for stamina than the Altmer.

Except bretons

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They are a hybrid race because their Spell Recharge passive restores stamina as of today.

Yeah, three days later and this makes no sense to me. Maybe if it simply restored both, it'd be fine.

chetter_hummin wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

I only play one Altmer anyways, a sorc, Altmer has never been my cup of tea. That doesn't mean that I'm disallowed from commenting about the direction of the game and this weird choice. It speaks to something fundamentally dysfunctional behind the scenes for the game I enjoy playing.

Otherwise I'm not complaining or lauding anything, I'm simply stating facts.

Fundamentally dysfunctional because Altmer got a more PvP oriented passive that focuses on Stamina?

Just because you might not like it (because it's not Magicka) it's far from being "dysfunctional".

Honestly, I never expected racial balance this good from ZOS but they achieved it. All races tailored towards their respective "metas" (Stamina/Magicka/Health/Hybrid) are mostly on par and excellent in their own regards. Some might need little tweaks but Altmer isn't one of them. ZOS has done something I never expected them to finally achieve in 5 years. Balance.

Are u trolling or u actually believe this?

That's a fact when you look at the test parses. Magicka and Stamina races are all within ~ 1% difference which is excellent.

People wanting nerfs to spite other people.... I’m sure that attitude will make a great game

@John_Falstaff , actually you can count the total stats that each race gets via their passives and compare them to each other.

All the gearing options are irrelevant for this comparison b/c they are available to each race and there are sufficient sets out there to get any desired stats from set bonuses.

Since the set bonuses are standardized (for bonuses 2-4), you can translate the total racial bonuses into set bonus equivalents. And if 2 races have a different number of set bonus equivalents then there is imbalance, b/c there is no way gear can compensate for that since we are all getting the same amount of maximum set bonuses via gear. The same is true for enchantments.

It's pretty basic math acually.

Your total damage output is nothing but an equation. And for 2 races to deal the same damage their equations must be equal. Components of both equations that are identical cancel out. So all that remains are the race-specific components. And they have to be equal in order for the two races to be able to deal the same amount of damage.

---

As for the "niche content" remark. Sure you might occasionally need some stamina on a magicka build, but it is not like magicka builds don't have any stamina or stamina regen by default anyway! In addition, and that is the far greater point that you failed to understand, stam regen on a magicka build is only conditionally useful, whereas magicka-based stats are unconditionally useful. This inevitable means that the race with the unconditionally useful passives will be superior to the one with the conditionally useful passives, b/c it can simply change gear to get the stam regen were it is required and drop it again afterwards. The Other race, however, will always be stuck with stats which usefulness depends on the current situation / fight / content. That's the whole reason why we have money, so you don't have to bring everything to prepare for every possible situation, but you rather bring something universally useful that can be traded for the item that actually is useful in a given situation!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Even before today's massive nerfs to Altmer, Altmer were the third highest magicka DPS race, but at least they were competitive. They are no longer competitive. Dunmer were never competitive and today's small buffs don't help.

What does the lore say about Khajiit and Breton being the top magicka DPS? With rumours that Lawrence Schick is leaving, it seems ZOS is already throwing lore out the window.

Also, Altmer are now a hybrid race. I'm pretty sure the lore doesn't support this either.

What are you talking about... every race is viable now for every roll. 3-4k dps difference between the best and worst race at 60k parses is negligible. Quit fearmongering