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Orcs are fine now, just cause they have slight more damage in PvE than redguards doesnt make them OP
Bigevilpeter
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Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
EDIT:
If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
[Edit to remove name/shame]
Edited by [Deleted User] on February 9, 2019 11:07PM That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
EDIT:
If any other race was matched with the pure damage of Orcs there would be no point to playing orcs at all, since every other races has other benefits while orcs only get pure stamina damage.
Lets see:
Bosmer: much better sustain, so if you boost their damage to be the same at perfect sustain then there would be no reason to use Orc since bosmer get sustain and damage
Redguard: Same as Bosmer
Khajit: they already have simillar damage to Orcs, but can be played as Stamina or Magicka so why would I ever pick orc if I can get a class that can do both and have simillar or better damage
Dunmer: Same as Khajit.
Nords, Imperials, Argonians: Tank Races
Altmer, Breton: Magicka Races
Every Race has a niche including orc which is pure stamina damage if you take away anything from them they become automatically outcalssed
[Edit to remove name/shame]
24
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I knew the moment I saw this thread title it would reference Alcast in some way.
Although I don't agree with everything he says he does have a point about Redguard and Orc. In the current state of the game a class which offers sustain has very little benefit in PvE over one which adds more raw power, simply because sustain is so easy for most skilled players to maintain.
However, whatever ZOS does one race is always going to be better than the others for specific roles or builds, the important thing is to make sure that the values are as close as possible, which from all I've seen of peoples testing seems to be at most 2k DPS, which is a fine level.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."11 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I did some tests with specifically Khajiit, orc, Bosmer and Redguard. Will post them later.6 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@susmitds , wonder if CP scaling made it into PTS after all, or still have to test while imitating the projected max stats through enchantments?1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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CP changes are not on the current PTS build, confirmed by Gina.John_Falstaff wrote: »susmitds , wonder if CP scaling made it into PTS after all, or still have to test while imitating the projected max stats through enchantments?ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Confirming the CP calculation adjustments did not make it into this patch, but it will be in next week's PTS patch. Apologies for the confusion, everyone.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Turelus , oh, thanks for clearing that up - in all that buzz on first page, I've missed that bit.0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I kind of simulated the end stamina by using green food for races with 2k stamina1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
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Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs6 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I did some tests with specifically Khajiit, orc, Bosmer and Redguard. Will post them later.
NOWWWW!!!!! The suspense is killing but I’m willing to bet they’re all very close.
Also yes, after watching Alcasts review I now understand where all the Orc hate is coming from.Edited by Vapirko on February 7, 2019 11:57AM0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
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CP changes are not on the current PTS build, confirmed by Gina.John_Falstaff wrote: »susmitds , wonder if CP scaling made it into PTS after all, or still have to test while imitating the projected max stats through enchantments?ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Confirming the CP calculation adjustments did not make it into this patch, but it will be in next week's PTS patch. Apologies for the confusion, everyone.
Really. We could be in for a huge buff then.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
So you are saying because there are many factor and we cant never get accurate data you can skip even trying and already call in results based on what you personally think? Wow.4 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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However there are those testing and presenting valuable data. It's far easier to make a point stand when you can point to data and evidence which isn't based on feelings.Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."4 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.1 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
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However there are those testing and presenting valuable data. It's far easier to make a point stand when you can point to data and evidence which isn't based on feelings.Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
Last time "they" made tests Dark elves got higher dps than High Elves even though High elves had more stats which doesnt make sense, also these tests were done with perfect sustain which will rarely be the case1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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This doesn't mean you don't have to present some data yourself. If you have data to discredit someone else's testing then post that in their testing threads or make a thread about that. That's why people post data so it can be looked at and picked apart.Bigevilpeter wrote: »
However there are those testing and presenting valuable data. It's far easier to make a point stand when you can point to data and evidence which isn't based on feelings.Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
Last time "they" made tests Dark elves got higher dps than High Elves even though High elves had more stats which doesnt make sense, also these tests were done with perfect sustain which will rarely be the case
Balancing a game based on peoples feelings about things is a terrible way to go about it.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.
I just watched it. He didn't lose it over Orcs.
He makes good points.
Why Play Dunmer at all for stamina? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Again, I play Khajiit, so whatever, idc.I also fully understand that is easy as someone who only plays Khajiit to be like "whatever" but come on, Orc looks to be a little overtuned.4 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having now bothered to watch alcast video, he makes an interesting point about scaling vs non scaling start passives, but I really think we need to see the damage numbers in action espeshally next week with the CP change.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Part of the problem is errors, that is parse errors and crit luck, how many of your ultimates crit. Yes its an average but you still has an 0.3-0.5% error margin i guess, some can probably come up with an more accurate value but error margin is larger than most of the differences we are talking about here.
This doesn't mean you don't have to present some data yourself. If you have data to discredit someone else's testing then post that in their testing threads or make a thread about that. That's why people post data so it can be looked at and picked apart.Bigevilpeter wrote: »
However there are those testing and presenting valuable data. It's far easier to make a point stand when you can point to data and evidence which isn't based on feelings.Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
Last time "they" made tests Dark elves got higher dps than High Elves even though High elves had more stats which doesnt make sense, also these tests were done with perfect sustain which will rarely be the case
Balancing a game based on peoples feelings about things is a terrible way to go about it.
Obviously PvP balance can not be calculated mathematical like parses.Edited by zaria on February 7, 2019 12:46PMGrinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@zaria , considering the spread of already published parses, I'd say the spread is more than that, maybe several percent. Yes, parses are very rough estimates - with small sample size, confidence is low. Better than nothing though, even if it can't make a ground for balancing suggestions.0 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
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This doesn't mean you don't have to present some data yourself. If you have data to discredit someone else's testing then post that in their testing threads or make a thread about that. That's why people post data so it can be looked at and picked apart.Bigevilpeter wrote: »
However there are those testing and presenting valuable data. It's far easier to make a point stand when you can point to data and evidence which isn't based on feelings.Bigevilpeter wrote: »So now we defend races with sayings like:
"are fine"
"slightly better"
"almost same stats"
"will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone"
"will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE"
At least have some little shame when you are spewing feelings instead of data.
there are many factors and you will never get accurate data, you can only compare the base stats and in my case 4 years of experience on this game and damage calcs
Last time "they" made tests Dark elves got higher dps than High Elves even though High elves had more stats which doesnt make sense, also these tests were done with perfect sustain which will rarely be the case
Balancing a game based on peoples feelings about things is a terrible way to go about it.
I'm not comparing based on feelings, im comparing based on the stats themselves and using basic logic like for example dark elves has 1825 max stamin plus 258 weapon damage compared to 2000 max stamina and 258 weapon damage the difference is 175 max stamina so damage difference is not noticable, but dark elves can switch between magicka and stamina orcs cannot
Basic logic and maths not feelings2 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
So basically Darkelf?
Do not try to tell me that having Mag is a compromise. Darkelf is now completely useless. They excel in nothing. Sure, MAYBE the dps differences will be small, but considering Orc also get 1k Hp.... I'm starting to guess that will not be the case since Dunmer still have trouble sustaining and with gold recovery food, orcs will likely hit the HP requirement for trials.
Orc is overtuned. Drop the stam to 1500 and call it a day.
Edited by Azyle1 on February 7, 2019 12:53PM1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.
I just watched it. He didn't lose it over Orcs.
He makes good points.
Why Play Dunmer at all for stamina? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Again, I play Khajiit, so whatever, idc.I also fully understand that is easy as someone who only plays Khajiit to be like "whatever" but come on, Orc looks to be a little overtuned.
But actually they’re not. I just posted a comparison of a Bosmer and Orc they’re perfectly capable of achieving the same damage stats. If they fixed the weird pen after dodge roll and reverted the odd stealth change, Bosmers would be in good shape. Anyways I’m sick of trying to reason with people. Everyone will see with the all powerful dps parses.Edited by Vapirko on February 7, 2019 12:54PM3 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.
I just watched it. He didn't lose it over Orcs.
He makes good points.
Why Play Dunmer at all for stamina? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Again, I play Khajiit, so whatever, idc.I also fully understand that is easy as someone who only plays Khajiit to be like "whatever" but come on, Orc looks to be a little overtuned.
But actually they’re not. I just posted a comparison of a Bosmer and Orc they’re perfectly capable of achieving the same damage stats. If they fixed the weird pen after dodge roll and reverted the odd stealth change, Bosmers would be in good shape. Anyways I’m sick of trying to reason with people. Everyone will see with the all powerful dps parses.
Not interested in Bosmer, interested in Redguard, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit. Bosmer are screwed, forget about them.
You're right. You will see how you are wrong because I think you are forgetting the CP scaling. No one care about this weeks PTS, no one. NO. ONE. Wait until the CP scaling next week and then watch.Edited by Azyle1 on February 7, 2019 12:56PM0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.
I just watched it. He didn't lose it over Orcs.
He makes good points.
Why Play Dunmer at all for stamina? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Again, I play Khajiit, so whatever, idc.I also fully understand that is easy as someone who only plays Khajiit to be like "whatever" but come on, Orc looks to be a little overtuned.
But actually they’re not. I just posted a comparison of a Bosmer and Orc they’re perfectly capable of achieving the same damage stats. If they fixed the weird pen after dodge roll and reverted the odd stealth change, Bosmers would be in good shape. Anyways I’m sick of trying to reason with people. Everyone will see with the all powerful dps parses.
Not interested in Bosmer, interested in Redguard, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit. Bosmer are screwed, forget about them.
That’s exactly it though they’re not. Redguards, Dunmers are going to come to within a hairs breadth of Orc, if Orc even turns out to be the top. And I’m sure Khajits will stay near the top as well.Edited by Vapirko on February 7, 2019 12:57PM1 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
Did Alcast complain about this somewhere?
On his stream he lost it over Orcs. Watch his patch notes review on Twitch.
I just watched it. He didn't lose it over Orcs.
He makes good points.
Why Play Dunmer at all for stamina? Why? Why? Why? Why?
Again, I play Khajiit, so whatever, idc.I also fully understand that is easy as someone who only plays Khajiit to be like "whatever" but come on, Orc looks to be a little overtuned.
But actually they’re not. I just posted a comparison of a Bosmer and Orc they’re perfectly capable of achieving the same damage stats. If they fixed the weird pen after dodge roll and reverted the odd stealth change, Bosmers would be in good shape. Anyways I’m sick of trying to reason with people. Everyone will see with the all powerful dps parses.
Not interested in Bosmer, interested in Redguard, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit. Bosmer are screwed, forget about them.
Lol no one is screwed, bosmer are really good in PvP and good in PvE so they have a good niche, every race now is good for something.
Btw I have 2 bosmer, 2 orcs and 1 redguard so im not biased for any raceEdited by Bigevilpeter on February 7, 2019 12:58PM2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Just cause they became slightly better than redguards who everyone who followed meta probably has all their stamina characters as them, doesnt mean they are OP, they have almost same stats as dark elves with a tradeoff for health to magicka and khajits also will do the same if not more damage with the buff to shadow stone and reguard and bosmer will be much better for PvP and still good in PVE.
That is totally balanced, every class has a niche, nerfing any of the orc stats atm will just make them a worse version of another race as they were to dark elves before 4.3.2.
Alcast is just pissed off cause he has like 10 redguards
It's not about how better they preform in PVE over Redguards, it's simple math issue. Orc is just getting more passive value than any other race. If you compare them to Altmers their mirror Magicka race, it's clear Orc got one Jewelry enchant passive value more. Before you will say that the problem is that Altmer needs a buff, with Altmer the issue is about the direction of the passive not about the over all passive value. Even if Orc is being compared to Dunmer which supposed got get higher stat value due to the nature of it's passives(being hybrid) Orc is taking the lead in passive value.
If you ask me, I expect Orc to get nerfed in one Jewelry enchant passive value , which will be either the 1k health, 850stamina or the speed run or the speed reduction+the healing bonus.
I think it will the run speed so Bosmers will be able to feel better about their passive(Like you said yourself, every race got a niche.
Edited by Lughlongarm on February 7, 2019 1:19PM2 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
And yeah, that's fine... but you know the majority won't. Again, the purpose was to make the races balanced.
So let's look at some math.
With Artaeum Takeaway Broth and the proposed 20% increase next week on stats. My Khajiit has 110007hp with just full medium armor on.
With 825 extra hp and 20% on the top of that PLUS 3724 from the gold recovery food and 20% on that, I'm sitting 16.4K HP. Orc will have slightly more HP. Both will have 0 issues with recovery and have a little less stam. Dunmer will have under 16Khp and as a stamina in a trial, that won't cut it.
So Orc and Khajiit's will have a boatload of recovery on top of their DPS perks. Khajiit's being inconsistency with crit and Orcs.. well again, just being powerful.
Edited by Azyle1 on February 7, 2019 1:32PM3 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
And yeah, that's fine... but you know the majority won't. Again, the purpose was to make the races balanced.
So let's look at some math.
With Artaeum Takeaway Broth and the proposed 20% increase next week on stats. My Khajiit has 110007hp with just full medium armor on.
With 825 extra hp and 20% on the top of that PLUS 3724 from the gold recovery food and 20% on that, I'm sitting 16.4K HP. Orc will have slightly more HP. Both will have 0 issues with recovery and have a little less stam. Dunmer will have under 16Khp and as a stamina in a trial, that won't cut it.
So Orc and Khajiit's will have a boatload of recovery on top of their DPS perks. Khajiit's being inconsistency with crit and Orcs.. well again, just being powerful.
16k hp plus 1k from ebon and warden healing another 1k so 18k seems pretty fine to me. If orcs have more hp then thats their balance for not being able to switch between magicka and stamina2
