@Toc de Malsvi

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

First Bow ulti will deal 3 times the damage or force dodge roll and blocking to drain resources. There are plenty of tanky DK's, Templars, even Sorc's that will not drop to a DB but will succumb to the pressure of a Ballista.

Second you can literally have both and use whichever you prefer for the situation.

Sure I'd like a buff for Ballista, but pretending Ballista is useless is shameless deceit.

Hyperbolic rhetoric pushing propaganda only leads to catastrophic game balance.

Is that why I mostly see DB in my death recaps, certainly more than I see the balistas? And why most pro players are still using DBs?

What looks good on paper isn't good in reality necessarily. Which is why people use 2h, and not dual wield, which looks better on paper (or at least they used to before snares wrecked wrecking blow and dual enchants)
Difference between DB and bowulti, is same as difference between wrecking blow and rapid strikes. PvP needs burst over split seconds, not huge amounts of damage over 6 seconds. In PvP players react to your actions, especially if they are as punishing to not to, and are as visible as balistae. Why is that so elusive to you?

Just repeating "deceit deceit - they are out to plays us all!" , is not going to do anything. Do feel free to google "theory of mind". And posh that concept of yours.

----
Just noticed you play woodelves(who are currently dancing on rearguards' graves).
You call yourself a legendary archer of Valenwood.
And your characters have dual bows.

I think this is all one needs to see which one of us has got an agenda.

Also, i think you are derailing the thread.
Do feel free to make a different DB vs ballistae in PvP thread please.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

First Bow ulti will deal 3 times the damage or force dodge roll and blocking to drain resources. There are plenty of tanky DK's, Templars, even Sorc's that will not drop to a DB but will succumb to the pressure of a Ballista.

Second you can literally have both and use whichever you prefer for the situation.

Sure I'd like a buff for Ballista, but pretending Ballista is useless is shameless deceit.

Hyperbolic rhetoric pushing propaganda only leads to catastrophic game balance.

Is that why I mostly see DB in my death recaps, certainly more than I see the balistas? And why most pro players are still using DBs?

What looks good on paper isn't good in reality necessarily. Which is why people use 2h, and not dual wield, which looks better on paper (or at least they used to before snares wrecked wrecking blow and dual enchants)
Difference between DB and bowulti, is same as difference between wrecking blow and rapid strikes. PvP needs burst over split seconds, not huge amounts of damage over 6 seconds. In PvP players react to your actions, especially if they are as punishing to not to, and are as visible as balistae. Why is that so elusive to you?

Just repeating "deceit deceit - they are out to plays us all!" , is not going to do anything. Do feel free to google "theory of mind". And posh that concept of yours.

----
Just noticed you play woodelves(who are currently dancing on rearguards' graves).
You call yourself a legendary archer of Valenwood.
And your characters have dual bows.

I think this is all one needs to see which one of us has got an agenda.

Also, i think you are derailing the thread.
Do feel free to make a different DB vs ballistae in PvP thread please.

Right, because arguing that Ballista isn't that weak is beneficial to my Bow/Bow "agenda". LOL

Also if you cared to think, Redguard is hands down better for Bow/Bow than Bosmer.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Right, because arguing that Ballista isn't that weak is beneficial to my Bow/Bow "agenda". LOL

GODS! Really?
Are you really now ging to play that card. Remind me again who was the one who actually accused another of having an agenda in this thread? (Hint: It was you)

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@Silver_Strider
Destruction of old yokuda is more legendary lore than established fact lore.

Staves aren't melle weapons.

Ansie and sword singers didn't use staves.
Why are you still beating this horse fossil?

Oh and yes, nobody plays red-guard for a staff gameplay, and nobody uses staves on a stamina character.
Therefore the passive in question is just a joke and a NerfInDiguise. (Someone has to keep reminding the hijackers what the topic really is)

I'm not beating anything, I'm explaining as to why it's not a totally lorebreaking prospect as to why Redguards would have some magical talent is all. The passive as a whole is completely fine, it makes it so Redguard isn't as dominate in Stamina Roles as it was prior to the changes but still has a decently powerful spot in those roles and offers at least some use for those RPers that want to make a Magic Redguard.

Why does it need to be changed into a generic Stamina cost reduction passive which doesn't offer that Magic Redguard flexibility and is still useful for Stamina DPS considering that E.Hail, PI, Rending Slashes, etc all benefit from this change and are in every single Stamina DPS rotation? Because YOU don't like?

Marshall1289 wrote: »

A counter arguement is builds without regen multipliers like heavy dk's in no cp pvp would get less sustain from Bosmer vs RG, however my proposal of making 8% weapon cost reduction to something more universal like 4% to everything or 6% to mag/sta is still very strong, especially in pvp.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It doesn't only help three builds. It is likely only "meta" for three PvE builds, or at least in the discussion.

Yes, I agree, it can work for more than 3 builds, I mentioned those from a meta sta DD standpoint. I'm saying it could work for a lot more builds with a slight change. Why do we need a racial passive you need to build for. Having it effect more than just weapon skills, but decreasing the potency means builds without regen multipliers still see use from it without leaving setups with more class abilties shafted.

LiquidPony wrote: »

I keep people saying that this change hurts "flexibility" but it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. Sure, Redguard won't be the de facto "meta" race for *all PvE stamina DPS* like it has been since Morrowind, but it will be now be in the discussion for a bunch of builds that it wasn't before along while still being the meta race for some subset of PvE stamina DPS.

It does hurt flexibility. Anyone using this race will feel shafted if they didn't build more weapon abilities in to their kit, it doesn't need to be meta like it was before, I love the racial changes for other races, but the 8% is underwhelmingly specific, even though practically every Redguard I play will work really well with the passive.

It almost feels the same way orcs had 4% melee dmg changed to 258 wep dmg because it only worked for specifica abilities where weapon dmg works for everything, direct dmg to proc their new passive regen. How 20% hp regen only felt useful if you had Troll King. How Wood Elf's 21% sta reg needed extremely high investment in to sta reg to outclass RG's adrenaline rush. How even RG's adrenaline rush is now procced on weapon abilties, which is just any light attack from your weapon which everyone weave. Any class and setup can utilize those passives.

It's very clear their intentions were to open every race for many more builds, RG does achieve this to some extent like you said because everyone uses SOME weapon abilities, but it could do so much better without making it BiS at the same time just by detaching it from weapon abilities and finding a nice balance on the number.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Staves aren't melle weapons.

Are you talking in general or in ESO? Because staves are and have been melee weapons, traditionally they are 2-handed wide/blunt weapons.
They haven't appeared as such in a TES game since Morrowind tho as they were changed to magically charged casting rods in Oblivion. But even then they weren't really mage weapons as rather than being conducts for your innate magicka they were essentially rechargable magic scrolls, offering access to spells to those without the natural talent for magic.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

A counter arguement is builds without regen multipliers like heavy dk's in no cp pvp would get less sustain from Bosmer vs RG, however my proposal of making 8% weapon cost reduction to something more universal like 4% to everything or 6% to mag/sta is still very strong, especially in pvp.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It doesn't only help three builds. It is likely only "meta" for three PvE builds, or at least in the discussion.

Yes, I agree, it can work for more than 3 builds, I mentioned those from a meta sta DD standpoint. I'm saying it could work for a lot more builds with a slight change. Why do we need a racial passive you need to build for. Having it effect more than just weapon skills, but decreasing the potency means builds without regen multipliers still see use from it without leaving setups with more class abilties shafted.

LiquidPony wrote: »

I keep people saying that this change hurts "flexibility" but it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. Sure, Redguard won't be the de facto "meta" race for *all PvE stamina DPS* like it has been since Morrowind, but it will be now be in the discussion for a bunch of builds that it wasn't before along while still being the meta race for some subset of PvE stamina DPS.

It does hurt flexibility. Anyone using this race will feel shafted if they didn't build more weapon abilities in to their kit, it doesn't need to be meta like it was before, I love the racial changes for other races, but the 8% is underwhelmingly specific, even though practically every Redguard I play will work really well with the passive.

It almost feels the same way orcs had 4% melee dmg changed to 258 wep dmg because it only worked for specifica abilities where weapon dmg works for everything, direct dmg to proc their new passive regen. How 20% hp regen only felt useful if you had Troll King. How Wood Elf's 21% sta reg needed extremely high investment in to sta reg to outclass RG's adrenaline rush. How even RG's adrenaline rush is now procced on weapon abilties, which is just any light attack from your weapon which everyone weave. Any class and setup can utilize those passives.

It's very clear their intentions were to open every race for many more builds, RG does achieve this to some extent like you said because everyone uses SOME weapon abilities, but it could do so much better without making it BiS at the same time just by detaching it from weapon abilities and finding a nice balance on the number.

The issue with an across the board cost reduction is how it would impact the other Stamina races in terms of Balance. Look at Breton, it got a 5% increase in magic cost reduction + 100 extra regen and is now the best sustain race in Magic DPS while also doing more damage than all other magic races besides Khajiit DESPITE the fact that Breton doesn't have a Spell Damage passives like Altmer or Dunmer. Give Redguard 4% Stamina cost reduction + the buffed Adrenaline Rush and we just go right back to the same situation as live, with Redguard being top dog again and that's the issue with the suggestion.

Well that's the first reasonable reply I've seen about this, but how are breton the best magicka race? I thought Altmer was still stronger. Dunmer is obviously still behind, but thats a different arguement. Khajiit is dependant on RNG, but still has the highest DPS potential. DPS parses with support and synergies favour more raw dmg stats because sustain becomes less relevant with group buffs. Altmer and Khajiit have the raw dmg stats for mag dd, orc dunmer and khajiit have them for sta.

4% cost to everything is less potent for stam sorc than using an Orc would be if your pushing dps, they didn't have weapon dmg on live or any sustain, the 4% melee dmg they had barely helped any abilties in a typical rotation for live. This is a different ball game now, as well, 2k stam is slightly weaker than the 10% of live.

I really don't think a universal cost reduction would make it any better for BiS than it is right now with 8% on weapon abilities. It just means more builds can see a real benefit from the passive and you would be ignoring how strong the new racial passives are currently if they hit live.

Also I'm not saying it has to be 4% or 5%, the point is to make it in to something more versatile for any build, instead of being absolute BiS for a handful of builds because 8% cost reduction on weapon abilities is really strong if you can actually utilize it completely... Even with that, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit would still be the highest dps stam races, as well as the fact that they provide more unique passive than just sustain that a RG gives.

I feel like people are forgetting that passive regen is aregueably better for most scenarios than cost reduction for sustain. Not every fight is a straight 120 second burn on a dummy parse where cost reduction is relevant. There is always downtime in real fights where stam reg keeps ticking, blocking and sprinting being the obvious downside there where cost reduction comes out on top, that's what makes it an interesting balance.

Just want to clarify, I did state best SUSTAIN Magic race, not necessarily the best overall, although an argument could be made that Breton is among the best balanced magic races since it has all the bases covered quite nicely. Breton has so much extra sustain, it's totally within the realm of possibility for them to drop Witchmother/Clockwork Fillet and use normal Blue Food to give them more damage and while the DPS difference between Altmer and Breton is literally less than 1k, it's still an advantage that can't be overlooked. I did mention Khajiit being slightly stronger Magic DPS than Breton but as you said, it's largely RNG dependant and can quickly turn at a moments notice so Breton is more consistent in terms of DPS whereas a Khajiit's DPS can take drastic dips and spikes in their DPS numbers. Take in Breton's Spell Resistance for PvP purposes being at least mildly helpful and I'd say Breton has the makings of a near perfectly well rounded magic race on all fronts (Dunmer is probably the better of the 2 for PvP purposes but still, its far from being weak there). That's just my opinion on Breton as of PTS testing but they aren't the focus of this discussion so I'll stop derailing now.

As I stated, the cost reduction would put a strain on balance between the Stamina races and while Orcs dominate presence might not be totally threatened by it, it does negatively impact the races currently tied or just slightly below Redguard, pushing them further down the totem pole in regards to balance, particularly with Woodelves who have almost always been the 2nd fiddle race to Redguard. Right now, the balance between the 2 is pretty good, with Woodelves having some more natural synergy for classes that utilize class abilities over weapon abilities for their main spammable while Redguards help offer the much needed sustain for classes that lack a good spammable within their class. I see this as a fairly positive mix between the 2 races and while Woodelves do have some more PvP prowess over Redguard, it's not so much that Redguard is completely outclassed either, especially since weapon abilities see a ton of usage in PvP since skills like Rally, Crit Rush, etc are much more common place there then they are in PvE. Adding a generic Cost reduction to Redguard, tips the scales back towards Redguard being superior and Woodelves going back to being discount Redguards, to say nothing of Khajiit and Dunmer getting knocked down a peg as well.

Also, we have to look at what a generic cost reduction would do for Redguard across the board outside of DPS roles. While it wouldn't be a huge thing in terms of Healer roles, It would give Redguard some pretty substantial footing in Tank roles considering that Tanks make use of both magic and stamina skills on top of the resource restore of Adrenaline Rush being a huge plus as well and while I would normally be fine with such a thing, Imperials are practically dead in the water as is without throwing in a new contender to screw them over even more. The specific cost reduction on weapon abilities is still useful for Tanks ofc but not so much that it really puts the screws to Imperial. Granted I have listed my suggestions several times in helping Imperial out in this regard throughout the forums but until and unless something is done, I just don't feel comfortable with Imperials getting knocked down even further by the presence of Redguard being thrown so prominently into the Tank mix, not when they've been brought so low already.

I won't argue the value of Cost reduction vs Passive regen, both have merits that shouldn't be overlooked but in this case, a generic cost reduction might not be the best option in regards to overall racial balance, especially when everything is so close to being as perfectly balanced as it turned out that I have to give credit where credit is due for ZOS in making it so close.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

A counter arguement is builds without regen multipliers like heavy dk's in no cp pvp would get less sustain from Bosmer vs RG, however my proposal of making 8% weapon cost reduction to something more universal like 4% to everything or 6% to mag/sta is still very strong, especially in pvp.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It doesn't only help three builds. It is likely only "meta" for three PvE builds, or at least in the discussion.

Yes, I agree, it can work for more than 3 builds, I mentioned those from a meta sta DD standpoint. I'm saying it could work for a lot more builds with a slight change. Why do we need a racial passive you need to build for. Having it effect more than just weapon skills, but decreasing the potency means builds without regen multipliers still see use from it without leaving setups with more class abilties shafted.

LiquidPony wrote: »

I keep people saying that this change hurts "flexibility" but it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. Sure, Redguard won't be the de facto "meta" race for *all PvE stamina DPS* like it has been since Morrowind, but it will be now be in the discussion for a bunch of builds that it wasn't before along while still being the meta race for some subset of PvE stamina DPS.

It does hurt flexibility. Anyone using this race will feel shafted if they didn't build more weapon abilities in to their kit, it doesn't need to be meta like it was before, I love the racial changes for other races, but the 8% is underwhelmingly specific, even though practically every Redguard I play will work really well with the passive.

It almost feels the same way orcs had 4% melee dmg changed to 258 wep dmg because it only worked for specifica abilities where weapon dmg works for everything, direct dmg to proc their new passive regen. How 20% hp regen only felt useful if you had Troll King. How Wood Elf's 21% sta reg needed extremely high investment in to sta reg to outclass RG's adrenaline rush. How even RG's adrenaline rush is now procced on weapon abilties, which is just any light attack from your weapon which everyone weave. Any class and setup can utilize those passives.

It's very clear their intentions were to open every race for many more builds, RG does achieve this to some extent like you said because everyone uses SOME weapon abilities, but it could do so much better without making it BiS at the same time just by detaching it from weapon abilities and finding a nice balance on the number.

The issue with an across the board cost reduction is how it would impact the other Stamina races in terms of Balance. Look at Breton, it got a 5% increase in magic cost reduction + 100 extra regen and is now the best sustain race in Magic DPS while also doing more damage than all other magic races besides Khajiit DESPITE the fact that Breton doesn't have a Spell Damage passives like Altmer or Dunmer. Give Redguard 4% Stamina cost reduction + the buffed Adrenaline Rush and we just go right back to the same situation as live, with Redguard being top dog again and that's the issue with the suggestion.

Well that's the first reasonable reply I've seen about this, but how are breton the best magicka race? I thought Altmer was still stronger. Dunmer is obviously still behind, but thats a different arguement. Khajiit is dependant on RNG, but still has the highest DPS potential. DPS parses with support and synergies favour more raw dmg stats because sustain becomes less relevant with group buffs. Altmer and Khajiit have the raw dmg stats for mag dd, orc dunmer and khajiit have them for sta.

4% cost to everything is less potent for stam sorc than using an Orc would be if your pushing dps, they didn't have weapon dmg on live or any sustain, the 4% melee dmg they had barely helped any abilties in a typical rotation for live. This is a different ball game now, as well, 2k stam is slightly weaker than the 10% of live.

I really don't think a universal cost reduction would make it any better for BiS than it is right now with 8% on weapon abilities. It just means more builds can see a real benefit from the passive and you would be ignoring how strong the new racial passives are currently if they hit live.

Also I'm not saying it has to be 4% or 5%, the point is to make it in to something more versatile for any build, instead of being absolute BiS for a handful of builds because 8% cost reduction on weapon abilities is really strong if you can actually utilize it completely... Even with that, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit would still be the highest dps stam races, as well as the fact that they provide more unique passive than just sustain that a RG gives.

I feel like people are forgetting that passive regen is aregueably better for most scenarios than cost reduction for sustain. Not every fight is a straight 120 second burn on a dummy parse where cost reduction is relevant. There is always downtime in real fights where stam reg keeps ticking, blocking and sprinting being the obvious downside there where cost reduction comes out on top, that's what makes it an interesting balance.

Just want to clarify, I did state best SUSTAIN Magic race, not necessarily the best overall, although an argument could be made that Breton is among the best balanced magic races since it has all the bases covered quite nicely. Breton has so much extra sustain, it's totally within the realm of possibility for them to drop Witchmother/Clockwork Fillet and use normal Blue Food to give them more damage and while the DPS difference between Altmer and Breton is literally less than 1k, it's still an advantage that can't be overlooked. I did mention Khajiit being slightly stronger Magic DPS than Breton but as you said, it's largely RNG dependant and can quickly turn at a moments notice so Breton is more consistent in terms of DPS whereas a Khajiit's DPS can take drastic dips and spikes in their DPS numbers. Take in Breton's Spell Resistance for PvP purposes being at least mildly helpful and I'd say Breton has the makings of a near perfectly well rounded magic race on all fronts (Dunmer is probably the better of the 2 for PvP purposes but still, its far from being weak there). That's just my opinion on Breton as of PTS testing but they aren't the focus of this discussion so I'll stop derailing now.

As I stated, the cost reduction would put a strain on balance between the Stamina races and while Orcs dominate presence might not be totally threatened by it, it does negatively impact the races currently tied or just slightly below Redguard, pushing them further down the totem pole in regards to balance, particularly with Woodelves who have almost always been the 2nd fiddle race to Redguard. Right now, the balance between the 2 is pretty good, with Woodelves having some more natural synergy for classes that utilize class abilities over weapon abilities for their main spammable while Redguards help offer the much needed sustain for classes that lack a good spammable within their class. I see this as a fairly positive mix between the 2 races and while Woodelves do have some more PvP prowess over Redguard, it's not so much that Redguard is completely outclassed either, especially since weapon abilities see a ton of usage in PvP since skills like Rally, Crit Rush, etc are much more common place there then they are in PvE. Adding a generic Cost reduction to Redguard, tips the scales back towards Redguard being superior and Woodelves going back to being discount Redguards, to say nothing of Khajiit and Dunmer getting knocked down a peg as well.

Also, we have to look at what a generic cost reduction would do for Redguard across the board outside of DPS roles. While it wouldn't be a huge thing in terms of Healer roles, It would give Redguard some pretty substantial footing in Tank roles considering that Tanks make use of both magic and stamina skills on top of the resource restore of Adrenaline Rush being a huge plus as well and while I would normally be fine with such a thing, Imperials are practically dead in the water as is without throwing in a new contender to screw them over even more. The specific cost reduction on weapon abilities is still useful for Tanks ofc but not so much that it really puts the screws to Imperial. Granted I have listed my suggestions several times in helping Imperial out in this regard throughout the forums but until and unless something is done, I just don't feel comfortable with Imperials getting knocked down even further by the presence of Redguard being thrown so prominently into the Tank mix, not when they've been brought so low already.

I won't argue the value of Cost reduction vs Passive regen, both have merits that shouldn't be overlooked but in this case, a generic cost reduction might not be the best option in regards to overall racial balance, especially when everything is so close to being as perfectly balanced as it turned out that I have to give credit where credit is due for ZOS in making it so close.

Im mainly worried about the speed buff and resists completely overclassing redguard due to the ability to out manuver the redguard while having overall better sustain and resists in a meta where snares are prevalent, staying mobile is king and some of the hardest hitting abilities (sub assault and lethal arrow) and dots (venom claw, poison injection) are poison (meaning why pick redguard for pvp when bosmer can do better overall? A bit counterintuitive to what zos is trying to do). There have been many sugestions to bring the speed buff down a notch (10% for 4 seconds) to compensate, but that may bring distaste to the flavor of bosmer. Another sugestion would be to increase the weapon cost reduction passive to 10% leaving bosmer still better at nb but that will raise eyebrows too.

Imperial, I agree should not be ignored and deserves something else to help it out (Im happy zos is acknowledging it and will make changes) so likely next pts patch imperial should have high hopes.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

A counter arguement is builds without regen multipliers like heavy dk's in no cp pvp would get less sustain from Bosmer vs RG, however my proposal of making 8% weapon cost reduction to something more universal like 4% to everything or 6% to mag/sta is still very strong, especially in pvp.

LiquidPony wrote: »

It doesn't only help three builds. It is likely only "meta" for three PvE builds, or at least in the discussion.

Yes, I agree, it can work for more than 3 builds, I mentioned those from a meta sta DD standpoint. I'm saying it could work for a lot more builds with a slight change. Why do we need a racial passive you need to build for. Having it effect more than just weapon skills, but decreasing the potency means builds without regen multipliers still see use from it without leaving setups with more class abilties shafted.

LiquidPony wrote: »

I keep people saying that this change hurts "flexibility" but it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. Sure, Redguard won't be the de facto "meta" race for *all PvE stamina DPS* like it has been since Morrowind, but it will be now be in the discussion for a bunch of builds that it wasn't before along while still being the meta race for some subset of PvE stamina DPS.

It does hurt flexibility. Anyone using this race will feel shafted if they didn't build more weapon abilities in to their kit, it doesn't need to be meta like it was before, I love the racial changes for other races, but the 8% is underwhelmingly specific, even though practically every Redguard I play will work really well with the passive.

It almost feels the same way orcs had 4% melee dmg changed to 258 wep dmg because it only worked for specifica abilities where weapon dmg works for everything, direct dmg to proc their new passive regen. How 20% hp regen only felt useful if you had Troll King. How Wood Elf's 21% sta reg needed extremely high investment in to sta reg to outclass RG's adrenaline rush. How even RG's adrenaline rush is now procced on weapon abilties, which is just any light attack from your weapon which everyone weave. Any class and setup can utilize those passives.

It's very clear their intentions were to open every race for many more builds, RG does achieve this to some extent like you said because everyone uses SOME weapon abilities, but it could do so much better without making it BiS at the same time just by detaching it from weapon abilities and finding a nice balance on the number.

The issue with an across the board cost reduction is how it would impact the other Stamina races in terms of Balance. Look at Breton, it got a 5% increase in magic cost reduction + 100 extra regen and is now the best sustain race in Magic DPS while also doing more damage than all other magic races besides Khajiit DESPITE the fact that Breton doesn't have a Spell Damage passives like Altmer or Dunmer. Give Redguard 4% Stamina cost reduction + the buffed Adrenaline Rush and we just go right back to the same situation as live, with Redguard being top dog again and that's the issue with the suggestion.

Well that's the first reasonable reply I've seen about this, but how are breton the best magicka race? I thought Altmer was still stronger. Dunmer is obviously still behind, but thats a different arguement. Khajiit is dependant on RNG, but still has the highest DPS potential. DPS parses with support and synergies favour more raw dmg stats because sustain becomes less relevant with group buffs. Altmer and Khajiit have the raw dmg stats for mag dd, orc dunmer and khajiit have them for sta.

4% cost to everything is less potent for stam sorc than using an Orc would be if your pushing dps, they didn't have weapon dmg on live or any sustain, the 4% melee dmg they had barely helped any abilties in a typical rotation for live. This is a different ball game now, as well, 2k stam is slightly weaker than the 10% of live.

I really don't think a universal cost reduction would make it any better for BiS than it is right now with 8% on weapon abilities. It just means more builds can see a real benefit from the passive and you would be ignoring how strong the new racial passives are currently if they hit live.

Also I'm not saying it has to be 4% or 5%, the point is to make it in to something more versatile for any build, instead of being absolute BiS for a handful of builds because 8% cost reduction on weapon abilities is really strong if you can actually utilize it completely... Even with that, Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit would still be the highest dps stam races, as well as the fact that they provide more unique passive than just sustain that a RG gives.

I feel like people are forgetting that passive regen is aregueably better for most scenarios than cost reduction for sustain. Not every fight is a straight 120 second burn on a dummy parse where cost reduction is relevant. There is always downtime in real fights where stam reg keeps ticking, blocking and sprinting being the obvious downside there where cost reduction comes out on top, that's what makes it an interesting balance.

Just want to clarify, I did state best SUSTAIN Magic race, not necessarily the best overall, although an argument could be made that Breton is among the best balanced magic races since it has all the bases covered quite nicely. Breton has so much extra sustain, it's totally within the realm of possibility for them to drop Witchmother/Clockwork Fillet and use normal Blue Food to give them more damage and while the DPS difference between Altmer and Breton is literally less than 1k, it's still an advantage that can't be overlooked. I did mention Khajiit being slightly stronger Magic DPS than Breton but as you said, it's largely RNG dependant and can quickly turn at a moments notice so Breton is more consistent in terms of DPS whereas a Khajiit's DPS can take drastic dips and spikes in their DPS numbers. Take in Breton's Spell Resistance for PvP purposes being at least mildly helpful and I'd say Breton has the makings of a near perfectly well rounded magic race on all fronts (Dunmer is probably the better of the 2 for PvP purposes but still, its far from being weak there). That's just my opinion on Breton as of PTS testing but they aren't the focus of this discussion so I'll stop derailing now.

As I stated, the cost reduction would put a strain on balance between the Stamina races and while Orcs dominate presence might not be totally threatened by it, it does negatively impact the races currently tied or just slightly below Redguard, pushing them further down the totem pole in regards to balance, particularly with Woodelves who have almost always been the 2nd fiddle race to Redguard. Right now, the balance between the 2 is pretty good, with Woodelves having some more natural synergy for classes that utilize class abilities over weapon abilities for their main spammable while Redguards help offer the much needed sustain for classes that lack a good spammable within their class. I see this as a fairly positive mix between the 2 races and while Woodelves do have some more PvP prowess over Redguard, it's not so much that Redguard is completely outclassed either, especially since weapon abilities see a ton of usage in PvP since skills like Rally, Crit Rush, etc are much more common place there then they are in PvE. Adding a generic Cost reduction to Redguard, tips the scales back towards Redguard being superior and Woodelves going back to being discount Redguards, to say nothing of Khajiit and Dunmer getting knocked down a peg as well.

Also, we have to look at what a generic cost reduction would do for Redguard across the board outside of DPS roles. While it wouldn't be a huge thing in terms of Healer roles, It would give Redguard some pretty substantial footing in Tank roles considering that Tanks make use of both magic and stamina skills on top of the resource restore of Adrenaline Rush being a huge plus as well and while I would normally be fine with such a thing, Imperials are practically dead in the water as is without throwing in a new contender to screw them over even more. The specific cost reduction on weapon abilities is still useful for Tanks ofc but not so much that it really puts the screws to Imperial. Granted I have listed my suggestions several times in helping Imperial out in this regard throughout the forums but until and unless something is done, I just don't feel comfortable with Imperials getting knocked down even further by the presence of Redguard being thrown so prominently into the Tank mix, not when they've been brought so low already.

I won't argue the value of Cost reduction vs Passive regen, both have merits that shouldn't be overlooked but in this case, a generic cost reduction might not be the best option in regards to overall racial balance, especially when everything is so close to being as perfectly balanced as it turned out that I have to give credit where credit is due for ZOS in making it so close.

Im mainly worried about the speed buff and resists completely overclassing redguard due to the ability to out manuver the redguard while having overall better sustain and resists in a meta where snares are prevalent, staying mobile is king and some of the hardest hitting abilities are poison (sub assault and lethal arrow) (meaning why pick redguard for pvp when bosmer can do better overall? A bit counterintuitive to what zos is trying to do). There have been many sugestions to bring the speed buff down a notch (10% for 4 seconds) to compensate, but that may bring distaste to the flavor of bosmer. Another sugestion would be to increase the weapon cost reduction passive to 10% leaving bosmer still better at nb but that will raise eyebrows too.

Imperial, I agree should not be ignored and deserves something else to help it out (Im happy zos is acknowledging it and will make changes) so likely next pts patch imperial should have high hopes.

Personally, I don't think the speed buff will make it thru PTS, not after last patch in which ZOS nerfed all forms of Major Expedition as well as Swift Jewelry; that would be truly counter intuitive if it went live as is. If anything, I see Bosmer getting a passive speed buff while sneaking (sort of like concealed weapon) instead of a speed buff after dodging since it's much easier to balance, lore-friendly as it gives credit to Woodelves' thieving nature and it wouldn't bring back the whole "Too Fast to Hit" style of gameplay that Summerset started. I don't see either Redguard or Woodelves getting much in terms of adjustment apart from that though since they are fairly close in terms of balance.

And that would be a good trade off between khajiit and bosmer for stealth. Bosmer would move quickly through stealth and khajiit can move undetected while not going back to the swift meta. I can get behind that