Redguards' " Martial Training" Racial Passive doesn't make sense.

Xvorg

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

How come Redguards get better/economical with using staves than altmer or dunmer?
Or at all, since they are a stamina melee weapons based culture, and they fancy magic just as much as nords and orcs.

I think this should be replaced with a stamina ability cost reduction, and not just weapons. And it will also not be limiting Redguards from using class abilities freely.

I mean you can even reduce a percentage point, if you really have to. Making it a version of the new Breton passive(Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%).

---

EDIT:
Furthermore, and more importantly, higher resource buffs, or hybrid buffs are active all the time for Dunmer and Altmer.

If you are stamina Altmer, you get full benefit of the (higher resources restoration) passive.
If you are a dunmer, you sill get full benefits of the hybrid(max resources) passive.

But a Redguard(stamina or magicka) cannot benefit from half of the weapons it is supposedly getting a "buff" for. This is a #NERFINDISGIUSE

Sorry, but if we go full lore friendly, there should not be class skills

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

Sorry, but if we go full lore friendly, there should not be class skills

Sorry, but if we go full stamina, there would not be any need for a destroy staff.

Minno

yea it looks useless for mag builds till you realize the following:
- pvp mag builds NEED way to avoid stam drain. Redguard has those passives so you dont need a set that helps you.
- the cost reduction on weapon abilities is like having alt mastery+master staff slotted. 8% cost reduction as a templar on destro clench brings it down to less than 3k.
- 113 resto ult casts
- cheaper healing wards
- 900 stam coming in on ANY direct dmg plus 2k stam means more mag enchants and more mag centric dmg/sustain/tank sets.

I think redguard might be decent in pvp just requires a little creativity and build adjustments.

PVE? eh power creep by CP anyway muddles the waters lol

LiquidPony

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with magicka and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".


ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

Changimg the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to 4% cost reduction to all skills will more add flexability. Even 5% to mag and stam skills will add more flexability.

This would be a nerf for the builds that are currently benefiting the most from the new Redguard passive, though. On a stamsorc using Rending Slashes/Rapid strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable, something like 70% of my stam consumption is from weapon abilities.

So look at it this way: if my total Stamina Drain per Second is 1500, and 70% of that is weapon abilities, that's 1050 stam drain per second from weapon abilities. The current passive gives me an average savings of 84 stamina per second.

If you change this to 4% of *all* stam abilities, that's a savings of 60 stamina per second, which is a nerf. Even 5% of all stam abilities is 75, which is still a nerf. The Redguard passives are best for builds that currently have the worst sustain, that is, stamsorcs and stamDKs using weapon spammables. So what is being proposed here is that we nerf sustain for the builds that have the worst sustain in order to make Redguards more flexible for builds (particularly stamblades and stamdens) that *already* have reasonable sustain.

From my perspective, I would rather see "all Redguards must use a lot of weapon abilities" than "all stamina DPS must be Redguards."

The way I see it right now, with the current racial passives on PTS, we're going to see a healthy mix of Khajiit, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard and even Dunmer stamina DPS characters going forward, depending on class, build, personal preference, playstyle, etc.

Minno

LiquidPony wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with magicka and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".


ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

Changimg the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to 4% cost reduction to all skills will more add flexability. Even 5% to mag and stam skills will add more flexability.

This would be a nerf for the builds that are currently benefiting the most from the new Redguard passive, though. On a stamsorc using Rending Slashes/Rapid strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable, something like 70% of my stam consumption is from weapon abilities.

So look at it this way: if my total Stamina Drain per Second is 1500, and 70% of that is weapon abilities, that's 1050 stam drain per second from weapon abilities. The current passive gives me an average savings of 84 stamina per second.

If you change this to 4% of *all* stam abilities, that's a savings of 60 stamina per second, which is a nerf. Even 5% of all stam abilities is 75, which is still a nerf. The Redguard passives are best for builds that currently have the worst sustain, that is, stamsorcs and stamDKs using weapon spammables. So what is being proposed here is that we nerf sustain for the builds that have the worst sustain in order to make Redguards more flexible for builds (particularly stamblades and stamdens) that *already* have reasonable sustain.

From my perspective, I would rather see "all Redguards must use a lot of weapon abilities" than "all stamina DPS must be Redguards."

The way I see it right now, with the current racial passives on PTS, we're going to see a healthy mix of Khajiit, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard and even Dunmer stamina DPS characters going forward, depending on class, build, personal preference, playstyle, etc.

I agree with this. I dont think the community is testing any of these changes or coming up with builds to make them work.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

LiquidPony wrote: »

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

That is not how it works lmao.


Redguard: "I HATE MAGICKS! STOP FIRING THEM STUPID SPARKS AT ME! FIGHT ME WITH STEEL AND VIGOUR"

Altmer: "Ok, as you wish" *pulls out a staff and starts firing bolts*

Redguard: "........... "

JobooAGS

LiquidPony wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with magicka and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".


ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

Changimg the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to 4% cost reduction to all skills will more add flexability. Even 5% to mag and stam skills will add more flexability.

This would be a nerf for the builds that are currently benefiting the most from the new Redguard passive, though. On a stamsorc using Rending Slashes/Rapid strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable, something like 70% of my stam consumption is from weapon abilities.

So look at it this way: if my total Stamina Drain per Second is 1500, and 70% of that is weapon abilities, that's 1050 stam drain per second from weapon abilities. The current passive gives me an average savings of 84 stamina per second.

If you change this to 4% of *all* stam abilities, that's a savings of 60 stamina per second, which is a nerf. Even 5% of all stam abilities is 75, which is still a nerf. The Redguard passives are best for builds that currently have the worst sustain, that is, stamsorcs and stamDKs using weapon spammables. So what is being proposed here is that we nerf sustain for the builds that have the worst sustain in order to make Redguards more flexible for builds (particularly stamblades and stamdens) that *already* have reasonable sustain.

From my perspective, I would rather see "all Redguards must use a lot of weapon abilities" than "all stamina DPS must be Redguards."

The way I see it right now, with the current racial passives on PTS, we're going to see a healthy mix of Khajiit, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard and even Dunmer stamina DPS characters going forward, depending on class, build, personal preference, playstyle, etc.

This 4% also include magicka skills as well, including for sorc dark deal (so more stam sustain), crit surge, bolt escape. If you want to play mag sorc there is also frags, ward, curse, mages fury etc. For dk, wings, fossilize, (which you get stam for casting), and flames of oblivion for mag dk, there is whip, claw and more. For templar, extended ritual is a big one. Warden, frost cloak shimmering shield etc. Also a cost reduction on vigor, caltrops, trap and more.

Bosmer will still be bis for kiting and mobility. Orc and dunmer will still be hard hitters.

LiquidPony

JobooAGS wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with magicka and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".


ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

JobooAGS wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

Changimg the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to 4% cost reduction to all skills will more add flexability. Even 5% to mag and stam skills will add more flexability.

This would be a nerf for the builds that are currently benefiting the most from the new Redguard passive, though. On a stamsorc using Rending Slashes/Rapid strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable, something like 70% of my stam consumption is from weapon abilities.

So look at it this way: if my total Stamina Drain per Second is 1500, and 70% of that is weapon abilities, that's 1050 stam drain per second from weapon abilities. The current passive gives me an average savings of 84 stamina per second.

If you change this to 4% of *all* stam abilities, that's a savings of 60 stamina per second, which is a nerf. Even 5% of all stam abilities is 75, which is still a nerf. The Redguard passives are best for builds that currently have the worst sustain, that is, stamsorcs and stamDKs using weapon spammables. So what is being proposed here is that we nerf sustain for the builds that have the worst sustain in order to make Redguards more flexible for builds (particularly stamblades and stamdens) that *already* have reasonable sustain.

From my perspective, I would rather see "all Redguards must use a lot of weapon abilities" than "all stamina DPS must be Redguards."

The way I see it right now, with the current racial passives on PTS, we're going to see a healthy mix of Khajiit, Orc, Bosmer, Redguard and even Dunmer stamina DPS characters going forward, depending on class, build, personal preference, playstyle, etc.

This 4% also include magicka skills as well, including for sorc dark deal (so more stam sustain), crit surge, bolt escape. If you want to play mag sorc there is also frags, ward, curse, mages fury etc. For dk, wings, fossilize, (which you get stam for casting), and flames of oblivion for mag dk, there is whip, claw and more. For templar, extended ritual is a big one. Warden, frost cloak shimmering shield etc. Also a cost reduction on vigor, caltrops, trap and more.

Bosmer will still be bis for kiting and mobility. Orc and dunmer will still be hard hitters.

None of this is really relevant to PvE, though.

As I said, I'm looking at stamsorc parses using weapon spammables and around 70% of my stam spent is on weapon skills. The only exceptions are Caltrops, Trap, and Hurricane.

So if you make the cost reduction to *all* stam skills or all skills in general, you have to make it ~6% to not be a nerf. At that point, you've just made Bosmer irrelevant in PvE and anyone interested in sustain will just roll a Redguard.

LiquidPony

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

It does make sense lore-wise, though. Redguards are weapons masters, so they get a cost decrease when using weapons.

I don't really care if the bonus is changed to only affect *physical* weapons but the current bonus is really strong on the right build.

That is not how it works lmao.


Redguard: "I HATE MAGICKS! STOP FIRING THEM STUPID SPARKS AT ME! FIGHT ME WITH STEEL AND VIGOUR"

Altmer: "Ok, as you wish" *pulls out a staff and starts firing bolts*

Redguard: "........... "

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean tbh.

dodgehopper_ESO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study

Have you ever heard about Arch-mage Shalidor, or Nordic way of the voice?
So where are the Nordic magicka passives?

One can even not make a stamina Altmer, but that is not the mainstream choice. And what is not mainstream is not so because of the racial specialty. And hence one shalidor here and there, doesn't mean the entire race needs a reconfiguration.

There are always exceptions

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

I don't want to burst your balloon but there were other powerful Nord mages from antiquity: Galldir and his sons, Felldir the Old, all of the dragon priests, all of the kynareth priests, the greybeards, and of course the creators of Stalhrim and the barrows. It was made pretty clear in Skyrim that in the first era the use of magic by Nords was not considered with such disdain as it is during the events of Skyrim. (by the way there are other Nord mages I could have listed but I purposefully chose ancient ones that I could think of).

karekiz

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

And how many builds use those? The best ultimates are mostly not in weapon abilities.
And when have you seen a stamina build use a destro-ult?

The bow ult?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

karekiz wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

And how many builds use those? The best ultimates are mostly not in weapon abilities.
And when have you seen a stamina build use a destro-ult?

The bow ult?

DB is always better in PvP.

Minno

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

And how many builds use those? The best ultimates are mostly not in weapon abilities.
And when have you seen a stamina build use a destro-ult?

The bow ult?

DB is always better in PvP.

Resto ult/snb ult arent bad either. 2h ult is better than bow, its just balanced by it's cost.

Toc de Malsvi

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

And how many builds use those? The best ultimates are mostly not in weapon abilities.
And when have you seen a stamina build use a destro-ult?

The bow ult?

DB is always better in PvP.

This just isn't true and shows either willful ignorance or willful deceit.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

This just isn't true and shows either willful ignorance or willful deceit.

DB is an AOE that also Stuns, NUFF SAID!

Also, DB is not dodgeable, is not LOSable, gives you 3% weapon damage.
Bow ulti can be dealt by holding block, and spamin a heal

DB gives little time to block, as it is front heavy whilst Bow-ulti is the opposite of that and does linear damage.

This si why more than half of the PvP people still use DB, whilst bowulti is mostly just used by trolls.

2H ulti is dodgeable as well.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

Minno wrote: »

Resto ult/snb ult arent bad either. 2h ult is better than bow, its just balanced by it's cost.

Restro-ult means you would have to giveup your backbar bow and its roles.

All of this is very unnecessary pigeonholing.

Toc de Malsvi

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

This just isn't true and shows either willful ignorance or willful deceit.

DB is an AOE that also Stuns, NUFF SAID!

Also, DB is not dodgeable, is not LOSable, gives you 3% weapon damage.
Bow ulti can be dealt by holding block, and spamin a heal

DB gives little time to block, as it is front heavy whilst Bow-ulti is the opposite of that and does linear damage.

This si why more than half of the PvP people still use DB, whilst bowulti is mostly just used by trolls.

2H ulti is dodgeable as well.

First Bow ulti will deal 3 times the damage or force dodge roll and blocking to drain resources. There are plenty of tanky DK's, Templars, even Sorc's that will not drop to a DB but will succumb to the pressure of a Ballista.

Second you can literally have both and use whichever you prefer for the situation.

Sure I'd like a buff for Ballista, but pretending Ballista is useless is shameless deceit.

Hyperbolic rhetoric pushing propaganda only leads to catastrophic game balance.

Silver_Strider

JobooAGS wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study to try and bring that about so I don't think it's really lore breaking if Redguards had some proficiency with Magic Weapons.

Also, you have to look at this from a balancing prospective, instead of a singular one. Redguard will excel with classes that use Weapon Abilities as their standard method of attack with Woodelves being more useful for those that don't. That's a fair and balanced concept since it doesn't devalue other Stamina Races from being competitive but offers Redguard something useful to any build option they choose.

Wood elves also have movement speed and poison resists, which are very useful in pvp and in some pve contexts like vma or trials with a lot of movement. It makes bosmer better than you think

Woodelves were already superior to Redguard in PvP so nothing really changed there other than the fact they can be even more annoying dodge monkeys builds and that they lost their Stealth Damage bonus + Disease Resistance. The poison resistance was ALWAYS there as well so it nothing new they just got. Redguard was the best, or damn near to it, in practically every Stamina class so does giving other races a chance to shine while you still have a very strong presence THAT big a deal?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

"That stamina-Redguard is about to unleash his destro-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"


"That Magicka-Redguard is about to unleash his bow-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"



----
Also
"This stamNB red-guard is still spaming surprise attack. And wondering why he is out of stam. What a dork!

Troll post is troll and has 0 relevance to anything I stated.

SirAndy

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

As ZOS stated, Redguard is the Ideal, its what all Races get based off

Where did they say that?

The patch notes you clearly didn't read ...

JobooAGS

Silver_Strider wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study to try and bring that about so I don't think it's really lore breaking if Redguards had some proficiency with Magic Weapons.

Also, you have to look at this from a balancing prospective, instead of a singular one. Redguard will excel with classes that use Weapon Abilities as their standard method of attack with Woodelves being more useful for those that don't. That's a fair and balanced concept since it doesn't devalue other Stamina Races from being competitive but offers Redguard something useful to any build option they choose.

Wood elves also have movement speed and poison resists, which are very useful in pvp and in some pve contexts like vma or trials with a lot of movement. It makes bosmer better than you think

Woodelves were already superior to Redguard in PvP so nothing really changed there other than the fact they can be even more annoying dodge monkeys builds and that they lost their Stealth Damage bonus + Disease Resistance. The poison resistance was ALWAYS there as well so it nothing new they just got. Redguard was the best, or damn near to it, in practically every Stamina class so does giving other races a chance to shine while you still have a very strong presence THAT big a deal?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

"That stamina-Redguard is about to unleash his destro-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"


"That Magicka-Redguard is about to unleash his bow-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"



----
Also
"This stamNB red-guard is still spaming surprise attack. And wondering why he is out of stam. What a dork!

Troll post is troll and has 0 relevance to anything I stated.

Wood elf got movement speed and more stam to make up for the dmg and disease resistance loss. It out classes redguard for sustain unless you are spamming weapon abilities and everywhere else due to mobility and poison resistances.

Take this for instance:
258(1 + .2 med armor (need this for dodge rolls) + .2 major endurance from potion+ .2 continous attack + .1 vampire + .3 2h regen after kill) = 516 regen (438 without 2h, note to proc 2h, you just need to kill a player or npc, 413 with neither vamp nor 2h) , not even considering class or cp.

This is 33 - 136 regen better than redguard's adrenline rush already and we are assuming a redguard procs it on cooldown.

Meanwhile you are faster, are more resistant to poison skills and deal the same damage, in a meta where speed is important due to the amount of snares. It seems like the gap is overall widened. However, I may still need to do more testing

MashmalloMan

@LiquidPony I've mained a RG stam sorc for the past 3 years and even I understand this passive is pidgeonholing, it's super strong for my setup. Just because it works for classes spamming weapon abilities doesn't make it a good passive for the entire game. I'd rather have cost reduction on more than just weapon abilities if it "nerfs" my sustain, so be it, it would be more versatile. At least I won't feel forced to use a weapon spammable to utilize the 8%.

RG feels very 1 dimensional with this change which seemed to be something ZOS was trying to avoid by taking away % amps and "melee" dmg conditions for "direct dmg" instead. It helps 3 builds. Yes 3. Eg. Stam Sorc, Stam DK and bow/bow.

Bosmer's regen isn't conditional to combat, it's passively active all the time and with enough multipliers that 258 reg can be just shy of 500 reg. There is so much downtime in fights not accounted for where you're not spamming a weapon ability like Redguard does to get the full benefit of the passive.

These are just ideas, this doesn't make them BiS for sustain either due to the nature of cost reduction being useful only in combat.

• 4% cost reduction on all sta/mag/ultimate skills
• 5% cost reduction on all sta/mag skills
• 7% cost reduction on all sta skills (please see breton which has no interest in helping sta setups by only buffing magicka skill cost reduction, that is not an arguement as to why this isn't a valid option for RG)

MashmalloMan

JobooAGS wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study to try and bring that about so I don't think it's really lore breaking if Redguards had some proficiency with Magic Weapons.

Also, you have to look at this from a balancing prospective, instead of a singular one. Redguard will excel with classes that use Weapon Abilities as their standard method of attack with Woodelves being more useful for those that don't. That's a fair and balanced concept since it doesn't devalue other Stamina Races from being competitive but offers Redguard something useful to any build option they choose.

Wood elves also have movement speed and poison resists, which are very useful in pvp and in some pve contexts like vma or trials with a lot of movement. It makes bosmer better than you think

Woodelves were already superior to Redguard in PvP so nothing really changed there other than the fact they can be even more annoying dodge monkeys builds and that they lost their Stealth Damage bonus + Disease Resistance. The poison resistance was ALWAYS there as well so it nothing new they just got. Redguard was the best, or damn near to it, in practically every Stamina class so does giving other races a chance to shine while you still have a very strong presence THAT big a deal?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

"That stamina-Redguard is about to unleash his destro-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"


"That Magicka-Redguard is about to unleash his bow-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"



----
Also
"This stamNB red-guard is still spaming surprise attack. And wondering why he is out of stam. What a dork!

Troll post is troll and has 0 relevance to anything I stated.

Wood elf got movement speed and more stam to make up for the dmg and disease resistance loss. It out classes redguard for sustain unless you are spamming weapon abilities and everywhere else due to mobility and poison resistances.

Take this for instance:
258(1 + .2 med armor (need this for dodge rolls) + .2 major endurance from potion+ .2 continous attack + .1 vampire + .3 2h regen after kill) = 516 regen (438 without 2h, note to proc 2h, you just need to kill a player or npc, 413 with neither vamp nor 2h) , not even considering class or cp.

This is 33 - 136 regen better than redguard's adrenline rush already and we are assuming a redguard procs it on cooldown.

Meanwhile you are faster, are more resistant to poison skills and deal the same damage, in a meta where speed is important due to the amount of snares. It seems like the gap is overall widened. However, I may still need to do more testing

Nailed it. If you don't see how well rounded Bosmer is vs RG, I don't know what to say.

A counter arguement is builds without regen multipliers like heavy dk's in no cp pvp would get less sustain from Bosmer vs RG, however my proposal of making 8% weapon cost reduction to something more universal like 4% to everything or 5% to mag/sta is still very strong, especially in pvp.

Silver_Strider

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study

Have you ever heard about Arch-mage Shalidor, or Nordic way of the voice?
So where are the Nordic magicka passives?

One can even not make a stamina Altmer, but that is not the mainstream choice. And what is not mainstream is not so because of the racial specialty. And hence one shalidor here and there, doesn't mean the entire race needs a reconfiguration.

There are always exceptions

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

I don't want to burst your balloon but there were other powerful Nord mages from antiquity: Galldir and his sons, Felldir the Old, all of the dragon priests, all of the kynareth priests, the greybeards, and of course the creators of Stalhrim and the barrows. It was made pretty clear in Skyrim that in the first era the use of magic by Nords was not considered with such disdain as it is during the events of Skyrim. (by the way there are other Nord mages I could have listed but I purposefully chose ancient ones that I could think of).

I hate to burst your bubble but practically everyone of your examples can easily be explained away. Galldir and his sons were augmented by a powerful artifact and while Galldir may have been powerful by his own right, he's another outfitter like Shalidor. Felldir the Old as well the other Nord heros that banished Alduin were gifted the Thuum by Kynareth, a literal god. Dragons gifted their priests with powerful magic and Greybeards receive training directly from a Dragon. There really isn't much lore to suggest Kynareth Priests are innate magic casters or whether they received training in that regard.

The only example you listed that can't be brushed off is Stalhrim's history but the entire origin of it is shrouded in complete mystery so not much of a lore point. At best, it just leads to Nords having some long lost Ice Magic yet to be explored but that's a huge stretch for giving Nords a fleshed out magic history whereas the Ansei have a fairly fleshed out bit of lore, giving more credit to Redguards having innate magical abilities than Nords.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with magicka and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".


ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

As an Alaskan, I found this pretty funny lmao. Alaska isn't really a "vacation" place hehe

Rikumaru

Oh no, different races are better depending on which build you have, this is terrible!

Tannus15

I really like the Redguard passive.

I feel like it makes them different to other races without being OP and allows "weapon focused" builds, including any class that chooses to use an arena weapon set really shine.

ToRelax

I can understand feeling pigeonholed by the racial passives and wanting them to either work with more different builds or don't affect combat at all.
I can't understand to then still argue against passives opening up both magicka and stamina builds. You'll kinda have to decide there.

As for lore, honestly what bearing does that have on player characters? You can claim Shalidor is an outlier as a powerful Nord mage, even though that can be explained just as easily by culture as it might be some innate quality of the race, and from what we've seen in the games so far, probably is a mixture of both. But so what? What do you think your character is supposed to be if not an outlier?

LiquidPony

Marshall1289 wrote: »

@LiquidPony I've mained a RG stam sorc for the past 3 years and even I understand this passive is pidgeonholing, it's super strong for my setup. Just because it works for classes spamming weapon abilities doesn't make it a good passive for the entire game. I'd rather have cost reduction on more than just weapon abilities if it "nerfs" my sustain, so be it, it would be more versatile. At least I won't feel forced to use a weapon spammable to utilize the 8%.

RG feels very 1 dimensional with this change which seemed to be something ZOS was trying to avoid by taking away % amps and "melee" dmg conditions for "direct dmg" instead. It helps 3 builds. Yes 3. Eg. Stam Sorc, Stam DK and bow/bow.

Bosmer's regen isn't conditional to combat, it's passively active all the time and with enough multipliers that 258 reg can be just shy of 500 reg. There is so much downtime in fights not accounted for where you're not spamming a weapon ability like Redguard does to get the full benefit of the passive.

These are just ideas, this doesn't make them BiS for sustain either due to the nature of cost reduction being useful only in combat.

• 4% cost reduction on all sta/mag/ultimate skills
• 5% cost reduction on all sta/mag skills
• 7% cost reduction on all sta skills (please see breton which has no interest in helping sta setups by only buffing magicka skill cost reduction, that is not an arguement as to why this isn't a valid option for RG)

I disagree.

It doesn't only help three builds. It is likely only "meta" for three PvE builds, or at least in the discussion.

But Redguards will also be quite strong as PvP stam DDs, tanks in both PvE and PvP, viable healers especially in PvP, and even potentially unorthodox magicka DDs/hybrids in PvP.

I keep people saying that this change hurts "flexibility" but it seems to me that exactly the opposite is true. Sure, Redguard won't be the de facto "meta" race for *all PvE stamina DPS* like it has been since Morrowind, but it will be now be in the discussion for a bunch of builds that it wasn't before along while still being the meta race for some subset of PvE stamina DPS.

And besides, Redguard is still going to be totally fine as a racial choice for any PvE stam DD. Sustain is going to be better than it already was across the board as a Redguard because Adrenaline Rush was buffed and Martial Training is still a decent passive even for builds that use mostly class skills; at worst it's not going to be significantly worse than the old Exhilaration passive which was hardly potent in PvE builds. Bosmers have no DPS advantage over Redguards; over-sustaining isn't going to increase your parse. Look at Liko's stamblade race tests for a perfect example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SCM_ssMMZU). Every stam-oriented race was within ~1k of each other, from Bosmers at 59,826 to Orcs at 61,086 ... and Stamblade is probably the *worst* build for a Redguard going forward (and of course it's worth noting that the Bosmer and Redguard had ~1k more health courtesy of bi-stat food, which may not matter to Liko but may matter quite a lot to the average Joe).

Xsorus

Alteration 5 Piece Main Set
Eye of Mara Jewelry and Restro Staff Backbar
Mighty Chudan Helm/Shoulders
Master's lightning staff main bar

on a Redguard Sorc

Sub 80 Restro ult cost (its at 84 on the build editor but Redguard 8% isn't reducing the Restro Ult when it should)

1500 Cost Spammable

2000 Magicka Recovery

Free Stamina gain while attacking

Khivas_Carrick

As a Biting Jabs aficionado, I would totally be in support of a reduced stamina cost racial lol