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DPS Data and Analysis on Racial Passives through all PTS cycles (UPDATED with 4.3.3 Magplar data)

HatchetHaro
HatchetHaro
✭✭✭✭✭
Recently, I have decided to take some time to analyze the damage difference between several different races. With the upcoming changes to racial passives, I feel that this is as good of a time it gets to test and offer detailed statistics on the actual effective differences between racial passives.

My goal with these tests is to analyze the effective damage differences between the top and bottom races, as well as a few in between, and as such, this post will serve to document my testing procedures, my calculations, and my comments on the whole thing. I will keep these updated as I collect more data from subsequent PTS 4.3.x cycles.

The ultimate goal I am trying to achieve is to offer a view on the racial passive changes from an end-game PvE damage-dealer, and propose changes based on the data I collect. My desire is to lower the damage gap between the top and bottom races for both Stamina and Magicka damage-dealing and make each race good at either one of them. That will be a separate forum thread in its entirety.

Just as a disclaimer, I am currently more well-versed in Magicka damage-dealing, and testing damage differences between Magicka classes is much easier than Stamina classes due to sustain being much less of an issue on Magicka classes.

PTS v4.2.4 Murkmire v.1 (25 December, 2018)
TL;DR: on a MagSorc, Dunmer passives give them +6.4% damage, Argonians +1.94%, Khajiiti none. This should about the same on MagBlades. The difference is higher on MagDens and presumably MagPlars. Let's not talk about MagDKs.
This testing session happened while I was still in Hong Kong, sitting at around 250-300ms ping. I did this session solo, supplying my own Elemental Drain.

Magicka Sorcerer

To start off with, I tested a non-pet MagSorc build across three different races: Dunmer, Argonian, and Khajiit. I chose these races because Dunmer is considered BiS for the Murkmire update, Khajiiti have no Magicka-related passives, and I just like Argonians.

Relevant Passives:
Dunmer: +9% max Magicka, +7% Flame damage, +2% Shock damage
Argonian: +3% max Magicka, restore 4620 Magicka on potion (effectively at most 102.6 Magicka/s)
Khajiit: none

All of the parsing was done in this setup: https://imgur.com/a/zPJ72x2

A quick note about parsing: numbers can vary wildly between each parse, so I've taken steps to make sure I get a number that is as close to their average as possible without having to actually perform and document hundreds of parses.

All the rotations were static and exactly the same. For each race, I did five separate parses on the 3mil dummy, throwing away all parses with imperfect rotations and those that deviated from the average by too much through lucky or unlucky crits.

Parsing numbers:

Dunmer: 44370, 43517, 43214, 43135, 42563
Argonian: 42275, 41477, 41464, 41298, 41097
Khajiit: 41241, 41115, 41108, 40110, 40087

So, on average, the Dunmer did 43359.8 DPS, the Argonian did 41522.2, and the Khajiit did 40732.2.

Compared to Dunmer, Argonians deal 4.33% less damage, and Khajiiti deal 6.0% less damage.

Put in another way, compared to no racial passives, Dunmer get a 6.45% more damage, Argonians get 1.94%, and Khajiiti get none.

The damage gap is lower than the 10% I had anticipated, but this is still a significant damage gap that end-game raiders constantly obsess over; I can elaborate on this topic in a separate thread.

One thing I realized from this testing session is that the +% max Magicka racial passives are additive to existing +% max Magicka buffs.

Undaunted Mettle - 6%
Inner Light - 5%
Bound Aegis - 8%
Mages Guild - 2%

So Dunmer have effectively +30% max Magicka, Argonians have +24%, and Khajiiti have +21%. The calculations add up perfectly to the max Magicka values seen in the setup images I've linked above.

I've also checked the tooltip numbers on my abilities. Just from the tooltips, I have found that:

Dunmer, compared to Khajiit, deal
4.7% more damage with magic abilities
6.4% more damage with lightning abilities
10.0% more damage with flame abilities

Argonians, compared to Khajiit, deal
1.57% more damage with magic abilities
1.6% more damage with lightning abilities
1.56% more damage with flame abilities

(Take into consideration that the only lightning ability I have is on my backbar, which will have a slightly different damage number compared to the abilities on my frontbar due to losing the Spell Strategist 4pc bonus. The numbers are still close enough.)


Magicka Nightblade

Magblades are actually very similar to MagSorcs, stat wise, in that they also get 8% more Magicka from their Magicka Flood passive, same as Bound Aegis.

I did not actually test MagBlades simply because their dynamic rotations are much too complicated to be able to replicate perfectly every single time, especially for the sake of consistency.

I also forgot to collect numbers for them, so I'll just make an educated guess that the racial damage differences on MagBlades is almost exactly the same as MagSorcs, aside from the fact that they don't have lightning abilities, since they still get the same +% max Magicka values. Take this with a grain of salt.


Magicka Warden

I chose MagDens because they do not have that +8% max Magicka equivalent to Magicka Flood and Bound Aegis (unless you count Northern Storm, but it is typically not slotted for the sake of double-barring the Bear ultimate)

Undaunted Mettle - 6%
Inner Light - 5%
Mages Guild - 2%

So Dunmer have effectively +22% max Magicka, Argonians have +16%, and Khajiiti have +13%.

I also did not test Magicka Wardens, because I am not skilled enough at them. I was also tired of parsing at this point in this session.

I did collect some data, though, comparing tooltip differences between a Dunmer and a Khajiit MagDen in Zaan, Necropotence, and Master Architect.

Just based on the tooltips:
Dunmer, compared to Khajiit, deal
5.2% more damage with magic abilities
6.8% more damage with ice abilities
10.3% more damage with flame abilities

Comparing that to my MagSorc tooltip differences, the difference between racial passives is higher. This because MagDens do not have (IE use) the same +8% max Magicka passive as MagSorcs and MagBlades, and therefore the actual total +% max Magicka differences are higher.

MagSorc: Dunmer +30% max Magicka, value 42.9% more than Khajiit's +21% max Magicka
MagDen: Dunmer +22% max Magicka, value 69.2% more than Khajiit's +13% max Magicka

Based on that, the same can be said about MagPlars and MagDKs.

Magicka Templar

Did not test. My hypothesis is that their numbers and damage differences are similar to MagDens. Again, grain of salt.

Magicka Dragonknight

Also did not test. Same thing with MagPlars, except that 100% of their damage is flame damage, so Dunmer probably have full on 10.3% more damage with their passives.

Stamina

Didn't touch them; too tired at this point.

PTS v4.2.4 Murkmire v.2 (20-21 January, 2019)
TL;DR: MagSorc numbers the same as previously tested, MagPlars surprisingly slightly less damage difference between races, StamSorcs hard to test, but Redguards undisputably kings of Stamina
Now that I'm in the US, I'm sitting at 84-100ms ping. I also got my friend Cheetahbill to provide me with Elemental Drain, Orbs, and Worm; thanks for sticking with me for over 7 hours man.
This testing session took me over 9 hours, from 8pm to 4am, but I got much more parsing data. This time, I got Altmer numbers as well. I also stopped bothering with calculations of elemental damage, because they will no longer be an issue with the upcoming racial changes.

All of the following parses were done with the exact same rotations for each class, throwing away parses that differ too much due to exceptionally lucky or unlucky crits.

Magicka Sorcerer

3mil dummy, Elemental Drain, Orbs

Builds: https://imgur.com/a/2U2f1qp

Dunmer: 49590, 48580, 48690, 48359, 50644; Average - 49172.6
Altmer: 48832, 48996, 50941, 47951, 48523; Average - 49048.6
Argonian: 46382, 47735, 47928, 47388, 46172; Average - 47121.0
Khajiit: 45872, 46538, 46939, 46062, 45644; Average - 46211.0

Dunmer: 6.4% more damage
Altmer: 6.14% more damage
Argonian: 1.97% more damage
Khajiit: 0% more damage

Without Worm, I had no issues sustaining the full fight on Dunmer and Argonian without heavy attacks; however, I struggled trying to sustain the fight on Khajiit, so for my Khajiit and subsequent Altmer parses, I grouped with my pal who had a set of Worm's Raiments on, which helped a ton with sustain. Worm makes no difference in damage so I didn't bother testing my Dunmer and Argonian again, since they could sustain the fight just fine.

Magicka Templar

6mil dummy, Elemental Drain, Orbs, Worm

Builds: https://imgur.com/a/uqkJzIF

For my MagPlar parses, I was having trouble getting consistent numbers using Radiant Oppression, due to the trouble of starting and maintaining it consistently. So for these, I still had Radiant Oppression slotted, but I would not use it in favor of a consistent and static rotation.

Dunmer - 48793, 48129, 48246; Average - 48389.3
Altmer - 48246, 47807, 47809; Average - 47954.0
Argonian - 46063, 45443, 47341; Average - 46282.3
Khajiit - 46586, 44991, 45787; Average - 45788.0

Dunmer: 5.7% more damage
Altmer: 4.73% more damage
Argonian: 1.08% more damage
Khajiit: 0% more damage

If Radiant Oppression was used, the numbers would be higher based on the sustain of the race you're doing this on, especially those with higher Magicka pools, higher Magicka regen, or both.
These numbers also differ from my hypothesis from my previous testing session. However, I'm also not going to exclude the fact that parses can be unreliable in terms of consistency.

Stamina Sorcerer

I actually did try to get parses for StamSorcs as a baseline for Stamina classes. However, one thing I realized quickly early on is that Stamina sustain matters so much more. Case in point, Redguards can easily sustain a static rotation with two heavy attacks per rotation (in fact, it's over-sustaining their Stamina pool), but Bretons will struggle even with that. In that case, comparing the damage differences between races on Stamina classes is going to be much more difficult due to their differences being more reliant on sustain and being able to cast more before running out of Stamina.

So instead of parsing, I've decided to just take the raw damage tooltips from the exact same builds, and compare those damage numbers. The races I chose are Redguard, because BiS, Khajiit, because they're right after Redguards, Bretons, because they have absolutely nothing to benefit any Stamina setups, and Argonians, because I like scaly tails.

Builds: https://imgur.com/a/T4RWTFa

Since Khajiit, Argonians, and Bretons don't have any +% max Stamina passives, all their ability damage tooltips are exactly the same.

In that case, compared to the other races, Redguards have 3.8% more damage when on their frontbars, and 4.7% more damage when on their backbars. Assuming that one third of the time is spent on the bow bar, they have a total of 4.1% more damage just from their +10% max Stamina passive.

This actually adds up; with Stamina classes' lower Stamina pool (by about 10000) compared to their Magicka counterparts, the 10% max Stamina doesn't really buff damage at the same level that the 10% max Magicka on Altmer does.

Khajiiti crit gives them about 4.3% more damage (assuming crit damage is 150% base + 20% Precise Strikes + 10% Minor Force). 5.2% with Aggressive Horn.

The interesting part here is that the raw damage isn't the whole story. Redguards have the best Stamina sustain among the races, hands down, with their Adrenaline Rush passive equivalent to chugging a crafted Stamina potion on cooldown. Therefore, they are much more able to dish out more light-weaved ability spams while other races have to heavy attack, and this is the sole reason why Redguards are absolutely unmatched in terms of Stamina damage-dealing.

PTS v4.3.0 Wrathstone Thoughts and Quick Maths
TL;DR: I didn't test anything yet, but I did do some calculations. The flat values from racial passives are applied before the % increases, and if Khajiit are actually BiS for Magicka DPS then they did lower the damage gap, which is nice. Also, Breton sustain makes it necessary to factor in different food and enchantments into our builds to have a fair comparison of damage.
Real quick, I've downloaded the patch and created several MagPlars to test: Argonian, Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, Breton, and Nord. However, the actual testing will have to wait; I am currently busy with a lot of schoolwork and will not be available until Friday evening.

Liko has done his own testing and found Khajiiti to be superior, then Bretons, then Altmer.

Assuming 53.4% base crit with buffs on MagPlars (as is the case in Zaan, Siroria, and Spell Strat, with all divines armor, 1Infused 2BT on jewellery), 56 points into Elfborn, and Minor Force, Khajiiti will have exactly 4.48% more damage than a race with no Magicka passives. With 100% Aggressive Horn uptime, Khajiiti will have exactly 5.02% more damage.

If Khajiiti really are the BiS race for Magicka right now, then that means the damage gap between the best race and worst race (at least on Magicka) has been lowered by a value of 1.4%-2% (down from 6.4%), which is great news. I still believe it should be lowered more, but, if Khajiit truly are BiS, this is still a step in the right direction.

Another thing I'd like to add is that Breton sustain, right now, is absolutely insane. Didn't crunch numbers, but while I struggled to even solo kill a 3mil dummy without running out of Magicka on Altmer and Khajiit (and without using Spell Symmetry or Heavy Attacks), my Breton breezed through that parse and even ended up with about 50% left in his Magicka pool at the end.

What this means is that there is an entirely new avenue of builds that Bretons have access to that can increase their DPS, while other races are stuck using certain gear for sustain, such as using bi-stat food instead of Clockwork Citrus Filet as well as using a Shock glyph instead of an Absorb Magicka one. This is the same way for Redguards for a long time as well with stamina builds.

Based on that, I have prepared different setups of enchants and foods for each race for my MagPlar tests, trying my best to match the Magicka sustain in an attempt to have a fair DPS test that also factors in sustain.

Argonian: Gold food with Shock glyph backbar
Khajiit: Gold food with Absorb Magicka glyph backbar
Altmer: Blue food with Absorb Magicka glyph backbar
Dunmer: Gold food with Absorb Magicka glyph backbar
Breton: Blue food with Shock glyph backbar
Nord: Gold food with Absorb Magicka glyph backbar

Hopefully that should net me results that should more accurately reflect the damage differences between races.

PTS v4.3.0 Wrathstone (24-25 January 2019)
TL;DR: Damage difference is actually larger than on live, which sucks. Khajiiti are way too powerful, Argonians still underbuffed, and Breton sustain is very intriguing, but also overpowered.
Finally, some free time!
I took the time to set up a full spreadsheet for my data input and calculations, and also to help visualize the data for analysis.
This time, I've decided to test all of the Magicka races on MagPlar, so Argonian, Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton. I've also thrown in a Nord to represent no racial passives (in the context of Magicka dps).

These tests were done with an assistant wearing Worm, applying Elemental Drain, and providing Orbs.
Builds: https://imgur.com/a/USbuj28

All races are in the exact same builds and rotations, with the exception of Breton which is in bi-stat Magicka + Health food.

Rotation:
1. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Vampire's Bane > Blazing Spear > 4x Elemental Weapon
2. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > Vampire's Bane > 3x Elemental Weapon
3. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 3x Elemental Weapon > Vampire's Bane
4. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 2x Elemental Weapon > Channeled Acceleration
Refresh Channeled Focus on cooldown, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast.

Execute is slotted and not used to preserve parsing consistency.

One thing to note of here is that these characters were either not Vampires or were at Vampirism Stage 1. The reason is that I forgot to become a vampire, and by the time I realized that all of my tests have been done on no Vamp resource recovery bonus, I had already gone through two-thirds of my data collection, and trust me, doing all these parses takes time, especially with my methodology of only counting parses where I've weaved perfectly and excluding ones with exceptionally lucky or unlucky crits. Either way, it should not affect the numbers, since all of the races could sustain the full 6mil fight without heavy attacks or Spell Symmetry.

HW8JoXb.png

Sure beats typing out the data into a text document and actually crunching numbers with a calculator.

As predicted, Khajiit came out on top. What I did not expect, however, is just how much higher Khajiiti parsed compared to other races. Even Altmer pales in comparison to the sheer power of their crits, something that will become even further amplified in raid settings.

One thing that is rather disappointing, however, is that these current PTS changes are going the complete opposite way of what the goal is, and that is to balance the races and lower the gap between them. On live, right now, Dunmer are on top with about 6.4% more damage than the worst race; however, Khajiit are coming out on top on the PTS with a whopping 6.56% damage difference compared to no racial passives. That gap only becomes larger in raid environments where Aggressive Horn is provided regularly. This is not ideal.

What I am ever so slightly pleased to see is that Argonians have at least received a small buff to their damage, but it is still not good. They are only barely above the worst races when it comes to Magicka damage-dealing, and is definitely among the worst in terms of Stamina damage-dealing as well. Their sustain, at this point, is abysmal, with nothing damage-based to at least give them a boost in terms of effectiveness. By far, they have been the most-nerfed race, and with no buffs to their damage-dealing potential to counteract those heavy-handed nerfs, they are simply no good at all at, well, anything.

Something that is really intriguing is just how much sustain Bretons have. Like, even in bi-stat food compared to the Clockwork Citrus Filets the other races are on, Bretons are still able to out-sustain all of them. The only reason their parses are lower than expected is simply because I could not find a way to effectively make use of their insane sustain without having to modify the rotations; I also tried not using the Absorb Magicka glyph but it turns out that actually made them unable to sustain the full 6mil dummy without rotation modification as well. What I can see here, however, is that with that much sustain, Bretons can simply do so much more. If I have the time to modify my rotation setups to use across all the races for a different test, making full use of Breton sustain in such a way that other races have to heavy attack / use Spell Symmetry just to match, I have no doubts that Bretons would match or even surpass Altmer in terms of damage.

Should be nerfed IMO; it gives them way more utility than Argonians ever had, even before the PTS changes.

PTS v4.3.1 Wrathstone (2-3 February, 2019)
TL;DR: In order to maintain parsing consistency and also to make my life easier with subsequent tests, I have created a program that writes an AutoHotKey script that will do the parsing for me, with the exact same rotations every single time with absolutely no inconsistencies between attempts. This also allows me to program slightly different rotations for different races without me having to memorize all the varying ability casts for all six races I'm going to test. From that, I have updated testing results for the racial passive differences. Hurr durr macros.
DISCLAIMER: I do not condone the use of macros for Live gameplay, especially when it also affects other players.
This instance of gameplay automation is done only on the PTS, and is solely for the purpose of collecting consistent and reliable data on the upcoming changes.

For the sake of transparency, here's how I made my scripts.

Inspired by my last test in PTS v4.3.0 which took me a long time for only a small handful of reliable parses, I've decided to create an AutoHotKey script to do it for me. However, in order to create one of those, I have to script in every single action, line by line, keeping in mind my varying rotations. This isn't viable, so, rather, I created a program in Processing 3.5.2 that does it for me through interaction with a GUI, including every single barwap, light weave, and even potion and orb interaction.

kHhV8NQ.png

All of the actions that my scripts can do are also fully replicable on my own; no action in these scripts is exclusive to automation. The only advantages these scripts give me are consistency in terms of rotations, shortening the time I take to get these parses, increasing the amount of reliable data I can get, and slowing the decline of my sanity.

It works perfectly by the way. I'm proud of it.

From this, I have decided to get more parses on the 6 races that I've used previously. This time, 10 parses each, and with builds and rotations that are more reflective of the sustain advantage that some races have.
Builds:https://imgur.com/a/eoV1Mfe

5/1/1 Zaan + Perfected Siroria armor, Infused on big pieces, Divines on small, all Magicka glyphs.
Spell Strategist jewelry, 1 Infused 2 Bloodthirsty, all Spell Damage glyphs.
Frontbar Spell Strategist Inferno Staff, Infused with Flame glyph.
Backbar Maelstrom Inferno Staff, Infused with Berserker glyph.

Vampirism stage 2 and above.

Mundus: The Thief (Critical Chance)

Food:
Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, Argonian, Nord - Clockwork Citrus Filet (Magicka + Health + Magicka Recovery)
Breton - Mistral Banana-Bunny Hash (Magicka + Health)

Provided buffs: Elemental Drain, Orbs, and Worm's Raiment.

Rotations
1. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Vampire's Bane > Blazing Spear > 4x Elemental Weapon
2. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > Vampire's Bane > 3x Elemental Weapon
3. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 3x Elemental Weapon > Vampire's Bane
4. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 2x Elemental Weapon > Channeled Acceleration

Refresh Channeled Focus on cooldown, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast.
Spell Symmetry is slotted and is used before a Blazing Spear cast, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast, when a particular race needs the sustain.
Radiant Oppression is slotted, but is not used. Executes are unpredictable and can make results vary a lot between parses.

The Argonian, Khajiit, and Altmer did not need to cast Spell Symmetry; the Dunmer and Breton only needed to cast Spell Symmetry once; the Nord needed to cast it twice.

After 6 hours of parsing (and many more hours of coding and creating rotations before that), here is my data.

Raw parse data from CMX
v42wYip.png
Keep in mind that lucky and unlucky crits aren't factored into these numbers. Rather, I was looking for numbers that are consistent with each other as well as a consistent Minor Vulnerability debuff uptime.

Minor Vulnerability uptime
fftENmP.png
Unfortunately, I do not have the time to get parses with very consistent uptimes, but a 5% difference in average Minor Vulnerability uptimes should be acceptable. It's just another layer of RNG that I don't want to mess around with too much. In case you guys don't know, Minor Vulnerability can be applied through Elemental Weapon casts.

Parse numbers without any Critical hits
VBANPKX.png
I took the actual amount of damage dealt with Critical Hits, and scaled those down to get the damage of every single parse as if there were no critical hits at all. As you can see, Khajiiti start to fall behind Argonians in that regard because they have 250 less base-Magicka. Makes sense; most of their damage comes from their crit.

Parse numbers with normalized Critical Chance
pjmPlke.png
This is done through taking the base damage above and manually calculating the Critical Values according to what we have in our builds, which is 51.8% Critical Chance (59.8% for Khajiiti) and 190% Critical Damage. The damage from Purifying Light and Zaan was not factored into the calculation because they are unable to crit. What this does is normalize the Critical Chance in every single one of my parses to eliminate lucky or unlucky crits and provide a more accurate number of what the average damage looks like.

Parse numbers with non-Templar Critical Damage
7iklBVx.png
Because I know people will never shut up about "Khajiit are only good because you are on Templar; if you are on other classes Khajiit will be worse". Here I have converted the 190% Crit Damage my Templar build has down to 180% to better simulate what other classes are. As you can see, Khajiit are still at the top. However, this also does not factor in the different scaling other classes have, so the only point that is concrete here is that Khajiit are still among the top either way, and would still be at the top in raid situations.

So, basically, what I am seeing here isn't really much different from what I've gotten in my previous testing.
Rather, what this particular session will serve is a reference point from which to base my future tests off of.

PTS v4.3.2 Wrathstone (9-10 February, 2019)
TL;DR: Their first change to the Racial Passives since the PTS and the CP changes they mentioned did not happen. Basically, Khajiiti received even more of a buff to their damage, which is the complete opposite direction from "racial balance", and Dunmer are now on par with Altmer in terms of dps.
I did more testing. Following the exact same testing methodology as my PTS v4.3.1 data collection, I have gotten parses from the same 6 races on my Magplar in the exact same builds and rotations. I have yet to test them in the Shadow stone and gear optimized to use that mundus, but that will have to wait until next week.

Builds: https://imgur.com/a/NtMsPx3

5/1/1 Zaan + Perfected Siroria armor, Infused on big pieces, Divines on small, all Magicka glyphs.
Spell Strategist jewelry, 1 Infused 2 Bloodthirsty, all Spell Damage glyphs.
Frontbar Spell Strategist Inferno Staff, Infused with Flame glyph.
Backbar Maelstrom Inferno Staff, Infused with Berserker glyph.

Vampirism stage 2 and above.

Mundus: The Thief (Critical Chance)

Food:
Khajiit, Altmer, Dunmer, Argonian, Nord - Clockwork Citrus Filet (Magicka + Health + Magicka Recovery)
Breton - Mistral Banana-Bunny Hash (Magicka + Health)

Provided buffs: Elemental Drain, Orbs, and Worm's Raiment.

Rotations
1. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Vampire's Bane > Blazing Spear > 4x Elemental Weapon
2. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > Vampire's Bane > 3x Elemental Weapon
3. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 3x Elemental Weapon > Vampire's Bane
4. Purifying Light > Blockade of Fire > Elemental Weapon > Blazing Spear > 2x Elemental Weapon > Channeled Acceleration

Refresh Channeled Focus on cooldown, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast.
Spell Symmetry is slotted and is used before a Blazing Spear cast, replacing one Elemental Weapon cast, when a particular race needs the sustain.
Radiant Oppression is slotted, but is not used. Executes are unpredictable and can make results vary a lot between parses.

The Argonian and Khajiit did not need to cast Spell Symmetry; the Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton only needed to cast Spell Symmetry once; the Nord needed to cast it twice.

Raw parse data from CMX
ERTkv5n.png
Keep in mind that lucky and unlucky crits aren't factored into these numbers. Those tell a completely different story.

Total % damage from Critical Hits
wI9gNtz.png
This is the percentage of damage from the parse from Critical Hits, though I did take out all of the non-crittable sources of damage, in my case, the Zaan procs and Purifying Light. The norm for the actual damage % of Critical Hits is (Critical Chance * Critical Damage) / (Critical Chance * Critical Damage + (1 - Critical Chance)), which is 73.87% for Khajiit and 67.13% for Altmer. As you can see, the Altmer had a good streak of lucky crits. These numbers will be taken into account to get a much more accurate representation of racial damage differences.

Minor Vulnerability uptime
SPp3phf.png
Aside from Crits, which I will nullify in a sec, Minor Vulnerability is another source of RNG. It procs sometimes on Elemental Weapon casts, and increases damage dealt by 8%. So far, this is the only source of RNG I am unable to fully control, as my scripting program is unable to implement channeled abilities yet, and is fully pre-programmed so I am unable to do Magblades. This time, given a bit more time, I've been able to narrow down my Minor Vulnerability uptimes to provide numbers that are more fair and accurate.

Calculated parse numbers with normalized Critical Chance
y2yEmNi.png
This is done through taking the base damage above and manually calculating the Critical Values according to what we have in our builds, which is 51.8% Critical Chance (59.8% for Khajiiti) and 190% Critical Damage. The damage from Purifying Light and Zaan was not factored into the calculation because they are unable to crit. What this does is normalize the Critical Chance in every single one of my parses to eliminate lucky or unlucky crits and provide a more accurate number of what the average damage looks like. This is, by all means, the most accurate data I have on racial damage differences.

Calculated parse numbers with non-Templar Critical Damage
31u2fMq.png
Because I know people will never shut up about "Khajiit are only good because you are on Templar; if you are on other classes Khajiit will be worse". Here I have converted the 190% Crit Damage my Templar build has down to 180% to better simulate what other classes are. As you can see, Khajiit are still at the top. However, this also does not factor in the different scaling other classes have, so the only point that is concrete here is that Khajiit are still among the top either way, and would still be at the top in raid situations.

Calculated parse numbers with the Shadow Mundus Stone
6M0qEWk.png
I didn't have the time to do the entire testing session again, but here I have recalculated all of my parses as if they were done using the Shadow Stone. Nothing else is changed, so builds are the same, and will not be taking full advantage of the Critical Damage from the Shadow stone.
On the same build, Khajiiti will be the only race that will benefit from the Shadow. However, this does not factor in altering my builds to make better use of the higher Critical Damage, such as using Mother's Sorrow.

In the end, Khajiit are even further up at the top, Altmer damage really didn't change much, and Dunmer was brought up to be on par with Altmer.

All in all, for PTS v4.3.2, rather than balancing racials to bring them more in line with each other, they have:
  • Further buffed Khajiiti damage with a negligible sustain improvement, which is a really questionable decision given that they needed a nerf, not a buff
  • Changed the Altmer sustain passive to be something that is entirely useless, because honestly, no one wants restoration to their lowest resources; Altmer needed a damage nerf, not a buff
  • Buffed Dunmer damage on all fronts, even though they were extremely healthy Magicka DPS-wise and were already too powerful Stamina DPS-wise
  • Buffed Argonian utility and sustain, which brings them back to square one in that they would be back to being dominant for utility roles, which is the antithesis to what the 4.3.0 nerfs to Argonians was supposed to do.

Honestly, this looks bleak.

PTS v4.3.3 Wrathstone (14-16 February, 2019)
TL;DR: The Khajiiti change from 8% Crit Chance to 10% Crit Damage is an overall nerf to their DPS, which I like, but in turn their damage can be buffed slightly higher. The CP changes are also reflected in the slightly higher DPS on all of the Magicka races, which is to be expected. The DPS gap between races, with the exception of Khajiiti, has been raised as a result.
Exact same testing methodology, gear, and rotations as PTS v4.3.2. The only difference here is that I have changed the way I parsed on Khajiiti.

Builds and stats: https://imgur.com/a/776bnwp

Right now on PTS v4.3.3, the Khajiiti Critical Damage passive is not recognized in Combat Metrics, and therefore their Critical Hits are all calculated without it. As a result, I am not able to get reliable data from it with the passive on, and that data is very important to me.

Instead, I've parsed on Khajiiti without the Critical Damage passive, and scaled their damage up with my formulas after the parsing. The full rotation was not affected at all, and since it's a static rotation fully done with a script, there is no skewing of the end results.

Raw parse data from CMX
dvbEhZ2.png
The Khajiiti parses were done without their Critical Damage passive. Again, I was able to do the full rotation without modifying anything, so there should be no discrepancies in results when I scale those numbers up.

Minor Vulnerability uptime
HkAiBtI.png
Minor Vulnerability is the only major source of RNG in my parses; the others are all from procs and proc sets. From that, I've tried to equalize as much of this RNG as possible through repeated parsing. It still does not say anything, but this should serve enough to keep things more or less consistent and accurate.

Calculated parse numbers with normalized Critical Chance
UWSvXSQ.png
This is done through manually calculating the Critical Values according to what we have in our builds, which is 51.8% Critical Chance and 190% Critical Damage (200% for Khajiiti). This also fixes the previous damage numbers from Khajiiti. These are the numbers that are the most representative of the damage differences between races at the moment.

Calculated parse numbers with non-Templar Critical Damage
HMgE3rF.png
Funnily enough, this change to Khajiiti Crit actually makes them worse on Templars and Nightblades compared to Dragonknights and Wardens in relation to other races, which is the complete opposite of how they were in previous PTS iterations. I just find this fascinating. Can't say anything for Sorcs though.

In the end, I like the direction that Khajiiti is going with this. However, I've discussed these changes with my PvP friends and they said that this is way too big of a buff to their PvP potential, what with the Crit Damage boosting their ganking ability, and some of my PvE friends feel that this is too much of a nerf to their PvE ability. I personally think that they are in a really healthy place PvE DPS-wise, and that Altmer, Dunmer, and Bretons should be brought down to about that level instead. In case that is not feasible, my own suggestion for Khajiit would be to give them 5% Crit Damage and 3-4% Crit Chance as something of a middle-ground between PTS v4.3.2 and v4.3.3.

No other real changes in terms of Magicka races; the CP changes buffed the rest of the Magicka races, and Argonians are still unfairly shoehorned into the healing role rather than having a passive that is more flexible and can benefit both their healing and DPS.

I will continue to monitor future PTS iterations and will collect data in the same fashion.
Edited by HatchetHaro on February 16, 2019 5:36PM
  • Nebthet78
    Nebthet78
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    It will be interesting to see the numbers for comparison.
    - Merrydia.......................- AD NB Vamp - Tank - CP930
    - Merrick Valnos-Krytt......- DC Sorc Vamp - DPS - CP930
    - Dyvvia Lucien Laxcroi....- DC HybridTemp Were - DPS - CP930
    - Eidden Du'Urdden..........- EP DK Were Tank- CP930
    - Jzargo Torga ...............- AD Stamplar - DPS - CP930
    - Rayden Valnos-Krytt......- AD NB - DPS - CP930
    - Hector Von Longbottom- AD Nord Templar - HEALER - CP930
    - Karla Gro-Bushgrol........- AD PoisonKnight - DPS - CP930
    - Nebhet-Fang-Ranger .....- EP DragonKnight - DPS - CP930
    - Radu Stormwind ...........- DC StamSorc - DPS - CP930
    - Perrygrin of Camlorn.....- AD MagSorc - DPS - CP930
    - Steals-Your-Mate.......... - EP Argonian NB - DPS - CP930
    - AD StamWarden - CP930
    - AD MagWarden - L0
  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    Can you add Breton Sorc with Witchmother's/Blue food to your test? I'd be interested to see how that Works compared to other races :smile:
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Poor bosmers..
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Will be interested to see more tests added to this.

    Unfortunately testing conditions seem to vary as there is already one reddit post that tested mag DPS on races that receive magicka bonuses by making them all put points into health negating the benefit they get over Argonian in their combined bonuses.

    This results in making Argonians look like they perform better than they will in use, and to top it off, they were still in last place.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15 ) • 3/30/2014
    Xaraan - (Grand Master Crafter) - NB-Tank
    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
    Xaraan-dar - (Master Thief) - Stamina-Nightblade
    Xaraanosaurus - (Hist Shadow) - DK-Tank
    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
    Xa Raan - (Shehai Shatterer) - Stamina-DK
    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
    Xaraana - (Explorer) - Stamina-Templar
    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I've updated the post with my own thoughts on 4.3.0 so far, but I still haven't done any tests yet; those will have to wait a few days.

    Sinolai wrote: »
    Can you add Breton Sorc with Witchmother's/Blue food to your test? I'd be interested to see how that Works compared to other races :smile:
    I'll consider it. Right now I have a lot to test just on MagPlars, and I still don't have a plan for doing stamina testing as of yet.

    Besides, you really shouldn't be seeing much of a difference at this point in racial differences across different Magicka classes, since racial passives have been changed to flat value bonuses.

    What this means is that all races will have the same +% max Magicka bonuses with each class so, theoretically, if there's a damage difference of 5% between races on MagPlar, then the damage difference between races on MagSorc should be the same. Just a theory, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

    xaraan wrote: »
    Will be interested to see more tests added to this.

    Unfortunately testing conditions seem to vary as there is already one reddit post that tested mag DPS on races that receive magicka bonuses by making them all put points into health negating the benefit they get over Argonian in their combined bonuses.

    This results in making Argonians look like they perform better than they will in use, and to top it off, they were still in last place.
    I'm curious about the test results as well, and look forward to when I actually have the time to do them!

    That Reddit post sounds bad, like, really bad. The OP must really have missed the point on min-maxing. The point of testing these things is to push thresholds, not to try keep everything balanced.

    I fully believe that Argonians will perform slightly better in relation to the other races in terms of Magicka DPS with these changes, but that difference is still not enough. I think that, since Dunmer also got a huge boost to their Stamina DPS, why don't Argonians get the same treatment?
    Edited by HatchetHaro on January 22, 2019 8:50PM
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    I have updated with detailed data on racial differences. The damage-difference on Magicka DPS is much higher than I thought, which is very concerning.
  • ecru
    ecru
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    I really don't want to be a cat and feel like cats being the best at magicka by a fairly substantial margin is a little weird.
    all trials cleared on HM
  • WuffyCerulei
    WuffyCerulei
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    ✭✭
    U’ll be a lizard regardless tho, Hatchet. Heckin lizzer.
    I will kick everyone's butt, even my own.

    PC NA
    CP 1200+
    Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP August Palatine - Flawless Conqueror
    Falls-With-Stars - Argonian Magicka Templar - AD - Former Empress - Voice of Reason
    vMA/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR
    Dragon-in-Shadows - Argonian Magicka Nightblade - Shadow Breaker
    Eossos - Khajiit Magicka Templar
    Death-Singer - Argonian Magicka Nightblade
    Dark-Star - Khajiit Magicka Dragonknight
    Ice-Dancer - Khajiit Magicka Warden
    Tsalli-ko - Khajiit Stamina Sorcerer
    Sings-to-Starlight - Argonian Magicka Warden
  • fioskal
    fioskal
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    I appreciate you putting in this effort to test everything Hatchet.... especially knowing that you'll still be a lizard regardless of race changes in the end. :wink:
    -Fiona-
    PC - NA - CP: 1000+

    vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMOL HM | vHOF HM | vAS HM | vCR HM | vDSA | vMSA | vBRP
    - Nightfighters / Cone Me Daddy / Golden Goblins -
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ecru wrote: »
    I really don't want to be a cat and feel like cats being the best at magicka by a fairly substantial margin is a little weird.

    It's definitely lore-breaking. I know the difference is only ~1-2% between Khajiit and Breton/Altmer, but it still doesn't sit well.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    ecru wrote: »
    I really don't want to be a cat and feel like cats being the best at magicka by a fairly substantial margin is a little weird.

    It's definitely lore-breaking. I know the difference is only ~1-2% between Khajiit and Breton/Altmer, but it still doesn't sit well.
    Templar is the special class since it give bonus to crit damage and Khajiit give extra crit.

    it was predicted by the guy who did the 25 parses on nightblade and DK magic and stamina.
    Still I did not expect it to have such an huge impact as 600 over next.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @MLGProPlayer , you keep ignoring the lacking sustain and the fact that those parses are on NBs and templars that give crit multiplier bonus. Even parses in another thread shown minimlar difference, inconsistency due to low sustain and even so they were done with four warhorns over the parse's course.

    (Don't see why it's lore-breaking either, khajiits - more so some subspecies, one to appear in upcoming Elsweyr chapter - are spellcasters.)
  • vesselwiththepestle
    The easiest solution would be to buff the worst race.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    The easiest solution would be to buff the worst race.

    Which is Dunmer, right? Can't agree more than magicka based Dunmer needs buff.
  • Aluneth
    Aluneth
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    The easiest solution would be to buff the worst race.

    Finally the Imperial race get some attention!
  • Minno
    Minno
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    I'd like to see these numbers in a raid environment where you are going to take hits and die/get stunned. Skelton only shows potential in a vacuum where this game doesn't exist.

    I'd also like to see these races in PvP where you'll be debuffed and cc'd.

    I'd imagine some of the "op" races you've selected are instantly balanced by battlespirit and in nCP for PvP but pve is inflated by power creep by CP without mechanics to stop it.

    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    Minno wrote: »
    I'd like to see these numbers in a raid environment where you are going to take hits and die/get stunned. Skelton only shows potential in a vacuum where this game doesn't exist.

    I'd also like to see these races in PvP where you'll be debuffed and cc'd.

    I'd imagine some of the "op" races you've selected are instantly balanced by battlespirit and in nCP for PvP but pve is inflated by power creep by CP without mechanics to stop it.

    The damage differences are going to be similar in a raid environment where tanks and healers know their jobs and DPS aren't dumb enough die from avoidable mechanics. If an Altmer DPS has to dodge a mechanic, a Nord DPS also has to dodge the same mechanic. Also, "stack and burn" is very much a widely-used thing on many bosses in trials. The Serpent, Ra-Kotu, Zaj'hassa, etc are all bosses that are simply held still and parsed on, with the exception of a couple of mechanics that all DPS have to do.

    Target skeletons offer the most stable and controlled environment on which to acquire reliable numbers from, especially in the purpose of testing and comparing data. We apply what we learn from this to raiding environments, because the calculations and data do not change.

    Once again, these are all tests in a controlled environment, so of course numbers will be different when you dump the exact same characters into an uncontrolled environment like Cyrodiil.

    But you are correct about PvP; these races are definitely more balanced in PvP than it is in PvE for the reasons you have described.
  • gmap516
    gmap516
    I LOVE YOU HATCHET
  • RouDeR
    RouDeR
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    I`ve never seen anything like this, what a complete waste of time .. xD
  • katorga
    katorga
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    If all setups are the same how does Breton have more Max Mag than Altmer?

    Doh, nevermind different food.

    Edited by katorga on January 27, 2019 3:12AM
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    I'm obviously coming at this as an Argonian player, so I knew they would end up nerfing their potion passive. But all combined, I do think they were overnerfed.

    I was hoping they would create unique passives to give races different approaches to building somewhat equally balanced builds, worth playing of whatever they wanted. All this patch does is shift the imbalance around. Previously, the support bonuses Argonian got were the only reason they were worth playing b/c they bring nothing else to the table to actually make them better at a role (only easier to do support roles or offer a bit more survivability in cyro). So expecting a nerf, I thought if they were going to handled it right they would offer them something in way of improving damage.

    I've seen one suggestion that they add a 100 spell damage boost for like 5 seconds to the potion consumption - which is interesting, but not sure how it would crunch up in the numbers. I've also suggested they should get 1K (or even 750) to both magicka and stamina - which would just give them a flat 1K to each stat. This would also address the second stealth nerf to health tank builds where Argonian tanks will be forced to take points out of health and put them into stam to raise that resource up higher than magicka (whether its points, enchants, food, all the same in the end). So in addition to going from 9% to 1K health, they will lose more health to balance for that issue. Giving them a flat boost to mag and stam would eliminate this problem and according to your work would still leave them at the worst performing races for dps'ing outside of a race that gets nothing for a resource (like a stam breton for example). So even with giving them that, I still think they would feel weaker.

    It's a shame that the race isn't balanced enough to play in roles outside of tanking for end-game. I've seen all the arguments about it only being X amount of DPS short, but this is a game of inches and several K dps short is a lot of inches to be behind in the dps race at end game.

    If not for Imperials, Argonians would be the least desirable race for the game overall and will probably end up 2-3 place for tanking and maybe that or a bit lower for heals. I say this with everyone playing this game being well aware that tanking is already the least desirable role and hardest to often fill. If you play one for tanking, you'll noticed the difference a little in end-game tanking when everything hits the fan and you are really tested, but I think it will still feel solid enough for the job.

    In the end, I have 15 characters, all argonians, 5 tanks, 10 dps (5 stam/5 mag) and I will watch 10 get weaker next patch (I expected the tanks to get weaker again, it happens every patch), with 5 magicka builds gaining a tiny bit of power, BUT losing a ton of support help, i.e. - not enough gain for the loss so pretty much equal. This is on top of watching my tanks get nerfed nearly every patch straight for the last two years. I'd love to feel good about one single patch added the game at some point zos.

    I can't go on about all the other races, but I can tell it's not balanced. There will just be a couple different races always recommended now. Everyone can go on about how this was deserved or that was, but fact is, when all the streamers you guys all follow start putting out build videos, if they don't say "it doesn't matter what race you play" then it's not balanced.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15 ) • 3/30/2014
    Xaraan - (Grand Master Crafter) - NB-Tank
    Xa-Raan - (Sun's Dusk Reaper) - Vampire Magicka-Nightblade
    Xaraan-dar - (Master Thief) - Stamina-Nightblade
    Xaraanosaurus - (Hist Shadow) - DK-Tank
    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
    Xa Raan - (Shehai Shatterer) - Stamina-DK
    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
    Xaraana - (Explorer) - Stamina-Templar
    Xaraanodon - (Ophidian Overlord) - Warden-Tank
    Xäraan - (Master Angler) - Magicka-Warden
    Xâraan - (Paragon) - Stamina-Warden
    Xaraanok - (Centurion) - Sorc-Tank
    Xaraanosorcus - (Magnanamous)- Magicka-Sorc
    Xa'Raan - (Apex Predator) - WW Stamina-Sorc
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.

    MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance

    That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.
    J'halin - 50 Khajiit Stamblade
    Ziryne - 50 Breton Magplar, Healer
    Varus Arano - 50 Dunmer MagSorc
    Raza al-Qerik - 50 Redguard DK, Tank
    Darien Sorick - <50 Breton Stamplar, Tank
    Do-Khaizo - <50 Khajiit Stamden
    Caerdolos - <50 Dunmer ("Maormer") StamSorc
    Varona Drelos - 50 Dunmer Magblade
  • HatchetHaro
    HatchetHaro
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    xaraan wrote: »
    I've seen one suggestion that they add a 100 spell damage boost for like 5 seconds to the potion consumption - which is interesting, but not sure how it would crunch up in the numbers. I've also suggested they should get 1K (or even 750) to both magicka and stamina - which would just give them a flat 1K to each stat. This would also address the second stealth nerf to health tank builds where Argonian tanks will be forced to take points out of health and put them into stam to raise that resource up higher than magicka (whether its points, enchants, food, all the same in the end). So in addition to going from 9% to 1K health, they will lose more health to balance for that issue. Giving them a flat boost to mag and stam would eliminate this problem and according to your work would still leave them at the worst performing races for dps'ing outside of a race that gets nothing for a resource (like a stam breton for example). So even with giving them that, I still think they would feel weaker.
    I completely agree with everything you've said except for the first part here. 100 Spell Damage for 5 seconds on every potion consumption is too low; it is literally just 11.1 Spell Damage over the entire duration.

    I would love the 1000 max Stamina pool for Argonians, and I believe adding in 129 Weapon and Spell Damage whenever you receive healing for 5 seconds would make them much more viable for DPS without tipping the balance. This way, they won't feel particularly weak in raids, but they would also have to force a heal on themselves in order to maintain their power in PvP.
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.

    MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance

    That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.
    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.
    Edited by HatchetHaro on January 27, 2019 12:45PM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    I'd like to see these numbers in a raid environment where you are going to take hits and die/get stunned. Skelton only shows potential in a vacuum where this game doesn't exist.

    I'd also like to see these races in PvP where you'll be debuffed and cc'd.

    I'd imagine some of the "op" races you've selected are instantly balanced by battlespirit and in nCP for PvP but pve is inflated by power creep by CP without mechanics to stop it.

    The damage differences are going to be similar in a raid environment where tanks and healers know their jobs and DPS aren't dumb enough die from avoidable mechanics. If an Altmer DPS has to dodge a mechanic, a Nord DPS also has to dodge the same mechanic. Also, "stack and burn" is very much a widely-used thing on many bosses in trials. The Serpent, Ra-Kotu, Zaj'hassa, etc are all bosses that are simply held still and parsed on, with the exception of a couple of mechanics that all DPS have to do.

    Target skeletons offer the most stable and controlled environment on which to acquire reliable numbers from, especially in the purpose of testing and comparing data. We apply what we learn from this to raiding environments, because the calculations and data do not change.

    Once again, these are all tests in a controlled environment, so of course numbers will be different when you dump the exact same characters into an uncontrolled environment like Cyrodiil.

    But you are correct about PvP; these races are definitely more balanced in PvP than it is in PvE for the reasons you have described.

    Thanks for the reply and the data!
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    ✭✭
    xaraan wrote: »
    I've seen one suggestion that they add a 100 spell damage boost for like 5 seconds to the potion consumption - which is interesting, but not sure how it would crunch up in the numbers. I've also suggested they should get 1K (or even 750) to both magicka and stamina - which would just give them a flat 1K to each stat. This would also address the second stealth nerf to health tank builds where Argonian tanks will be forced to take points out of health and put them into stam to raise that resource up higher than magicka (whether its points, enchants, food, all the same in the end). So in addition to going from 9% to 1K health, they will lose more health to balance for that issue. Giving them a flat boost to mag and stam would eliminate this problem and according to your work would still leave them at the worst performing races for dps'ing outside of a race that gets nothing for a resource (like a stam breton for example). So even with giving them that, I still think they would feel weaker.
    I completely agree with everything you've said except for the first part here. 100 Spell Damage for 5 seconds on every potion consumption is too low; it is literally just 11.1 Spell Damage over the entire duration.

    I would love the 1000 max Stamina pool for Argonians, and I believe adding in 129 Weapon and Spell Damage whenever you receive healing for 5 seconds would make them much more viable for DPS without tipping the balance. This way, they won't feel particularly weak in raids, but they would also have to force a heal on themselves in order to maintain their power in PvP.
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Magplar might not be the best spec to determine overall magdps potential because Templar’s crits deal 10% more damage than other classes, so of course Khajiit as a high crit race will top the rest.

    MagDK and mag sorc (while not particularly strong) don’t have innate crit synergies that heavily favor Khajiit crit bonus from the get-go, so they might be a better indicator of dps balance

    That being said though, Siroria can probably be swapped out for Scathing Mage on a Khajiit to almost the same effectiveness and doesn’t require staying in any particular area for the spell damage.
    I've scaled the numbers I had from 190% crit damage down to 180% crit damage to serve as a fair approximation of what the damage difference would be like on other classes.
    gmYAW77.png
    Khajiiti are still at the top.

    I think your suggestions sound great, but being an Argonian, I guess I didn't want to make it sound like I was asking for too much with the bonus damage. I feel better about the idea having someone that crunches those numbers (you) make the suggestion and lay out how much power it would be.

    I also really like the idea of damage buff when you take healing - that's pretty interesting way of doing it.
    Xaraan • NA • PC • AD • Argonian (x15 ) • 3/30/2014
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    Xãraan - (Forge Breaker) - Magicka-DK
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    Xaraanosaur - (Shadow Breaker) - Templar-Tank
    Xåraan - (Monster Hunter) - Magicka-Templar
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  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Your results make more sense to me than others.

    Good Work indeed!

    Can you do tests for other classes?
  • Playnice
    Playnice
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    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.
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  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Playnice wrote: »
    Don't put points into the Piercing Spear passive if you're going to compare/contrast a crit race like khajiit to other races. TBH I think the best way to test is to not use any CP damage modifiers. Just gives you a better idea what raw damage is before all the layers and layers of modifiers. In any case, nice work. Still lots of good useful information to see.

    CP affects build and templar benefit from Crit Damage Bonus, its better with CP as no one is going to use without CP.
  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
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    Tests are good an all but it doesn't answer all the questions i have on race but appreciate the work folks are putting in
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus - VR16 (810CP) Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-02-18 - 16-02-18
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