Lets talk about Flurry / Rapid Strikes / Bloodthirst Updated 28.01 16UTC

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

So Flurry and its Morphs Rapid strikes and Bloodthirst are intended to be used as spammables on DW builds which have no Class Spammable for stamina (aka. StamDK and StamSorc)

The skill has a Basecost of 2700 Stamina and a Channeltime of 0.6 Seconds.

My Suggestion would be to reduce the Cost of the Skill and its Morphs down to about 2000 Stamina.
It just is way to expensive to run as a Spammable, especially if you want to combine it with Mahlestrom DW Weapons, which require on a StamDK to cast your Spammable 4x While on the Frontbar, draining way to much resources for a spammable.
If you compare it to Rending Slashes, which atm is used as spammable on some build, even tho its a DOT, its a Difference in Basecost from 2700 to 2190, so 510 Stamina Cheaper, and you also apply a DOT with your "Spammable".

It may become very Important with Update 4.3. Since the StamDK can use vMA Daggers once again, making the Skill its main Spammable.

Update 28.01. 16 UTC

I'd like to quickly summorize the feedback / Problems that has come in till now:

The Skill is way to expensive as a Spammable
The skill is to hard to land on a moving Target
The 3% modifier on Rapids Strikes (Morphs) is not always added correctly
The Skill does not Proc MeeleDMG effects, or sets (like Advancing Yokeda Critbuff)
The DMG relies to heavily on langing all Hits, especially the last Hit
Channeling the skill is inconvieniet for some / many ppl
Interrupting the Channel, to play Mechanics or defend yourself it to punishing
Some ppl find it hard to weave properly, compared to other spammables like Surprizeattack

Conclusions:

The Skill needs a Costreduction
The Skill needs more upfront DMG, overall DMG seems fine
The Skill needs to correctly and reliably proc Sets, Effects and Buffs
The Skill should become easier to land on moving Enemies
The Skill needs to be Cancelable without punishing the Player the way it does now (more Upfront DMG)
The Skill should become a bit smoother to weave (this is IMO more a Player thing)

I hope I could summon up all the Main Problems and Feedbacks given by now.
If I missed something I m sorry for that

Small Sidenote from my Side regarding the Synergy with vMA weapons: (you may or may not approve tho this standpoint, just a personal statement)

- The Proc for the Cruel Flurry buff should be Provided upon Castin Flurry or its Morphs, not at the End (again making a Cancel not as Punishing, still wont make it worth cancelling on purpuse)
- The Cruel Flurry Buff should not be Consumable by Beasttrap, its way to unpredictable, exspecially the rearmed Trap proc.

How do you guys feel the Skill is working out atm?
Does it need Improvement in certain aspects?
(Without altering the main feel of the Skill, aka. Channel)

Anhedonie · January 2019

Tbh I prefer spammables to be more cheap overall, since they are "spammable".

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

Anhedonie wrote: »

Tbh I prefer spammables to be more cheap overall, since they are "spammable".

so you'd agree that Flurry and its Morphs would need a Small Costreductuion?

IF so, what would you think is a Fair Cost for the SKill, keep in mind its also a Channel

ChunkyCat · January 2019

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

you got it

But you are not forced to read those posts, if you have nothing constructive to say to the Topic discussed in this thread, then its prob best to jsut ignore it, rather than leaving a usless post, saying you're not interessted in this opic...dont you think?

Flurry and its morphs are only partially usefuill on 1 setup, and thats StamDK, else this skill is way underused, and I think its not a bad Idea trying to improve this skill, to make it viable also for other classes.

ChunkyCat · January 2019

BrokenGameMechanics · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

Sigh, people posting with their in depth knowledge ... Thanks for the tremendous insights there.

This is skill is raised up on the forums every 10-15 weeks or so. Why? Because it is the by far the most broken skill in the game.

This is the minimum number of problems with it.

It does not proc enchants correctly.
It does not calculate dmg correctly in the 3% compounding morph in all cases.
It does not apply CP scaling correctly in the 3% compounding morph on the final hit.
NOBODY can say what it "is" as a skill. It is a DOT+Channel with 7 meter range that is not a non-Melee attack.
It is impossible to predict what the skill will proc or fail to proc for armor sets. How is it not a considered a Melee skill?
Because it is a channel, it "self" interrupts. So if you try and get up close and personnel and spam/weave with it if you move around, dodge roll, block etc, you self interrupt the skill before it completes. If you want that last 300% Rapid Strikes hit you literally have to stand there <= 7 meters and not move for 0.6 secs. Can't block, LA weave, move or dodge and gain nothing for that penalty.
It didn't work with the MA(?) weapons that were supposed to work with this skill for years.

I think I'm even forgetting more issues ...

And that are just the issues with the implementation forget about the design. Since it is rife with problems, nobody even knows if the skill is well designed. And what I mean by that is it is a "spammable" skill. Right so, you would think a lot of folk, depending on play style, would slot the DW skill line's spammable and weave with it or whatever.

NOBODY runs this skill end game. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Not A Soul. When was the last time an 810 hit you with Rapid Strikes in PvP? NEVER

This is not some nich skill here. This is the spammable skill for a major weapon skill line that has a slotted rate of like 0.1% if that high at end game.

Now consider Jabs the closest cousin skill line. When was the last time an 810 hit you with Jabs in PvP. ALL THE TIME!! Heck there are people out there who are darn close to just 1-button spamming jabs!!.

Did you know that the tool tip weapon coefficients for Jabs and Flurry are the same? And Flurry's channel time is 1/2 of Jabs. i.e. same damage in 1/2 time => twice the spam rate.

AND NO ONE RUNS IT. WHY? THE MOST BROKEN SKILL IN THE GAME. A MAJOR WEAPON LINE SPAMMABLE is FUBAR.

FWIW - Total number of fixes by ZOS to date: yea, a grand total of one that I know of, the MA weapons. The whole enchant thing has been in flux as well, I have no idea for the current situation of what Flurry is SUPPOSED to do with regards to enchant procing and what it ACTUALLY does these days. I'd bet it is still broken.

CAVEAT: All of this is off the top of my head from when I looked at Flurry a long time ago. So if anyone has updated data please correct me.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

It does not proc enchants correctly.

It does not calculate dmg correctly in the 3% compounding morph in all cases.

It does not apply CP scaling correctly in the 3% compounding morph on the final hit.

NOBODY can say what it "is" as a skill. It is a DOT+Channel with 7 meter range that is not a non-Melee attack.

It is impossible to predict what the skill will proc or fail to proc for armor sets. How is it not a considered a Melee skill?

Because it is a channel, it "self" interrupts. So if you try and get up close and personnel and spam/weave with it if you move around, dodge roll, block etc, you self interrupt the skill before it completes. If you want that last 300% Rapid Strikes hit you literally have to stand there <= 7 meters and not move for 0.6 secs. Can't block, LA weave, move or dodge and gain nothing for that penalty.

It didn't work with the MA(?) weapons that were supposed to work with this skill for years.

this lists all the problems the skill has, besides the enourmous costs compared to other Spammables like crushing weapon or Surprize attack.

maybe a rework in terms of skill defining information, like meele or non meele, dot or channel ect is overdue.

I hope they can get some fixes in towards this skill, till Wrathstone goes Live. @ZOS_GinaBruno

But thx for your insight to all the things which are bugged with the skill, already knew of some, but still some new things in your list

Lord_Eomer · January 2019

I used this skill long ago on Stam Sorc but dumped it due to higher cost and taking to long to be competitive.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

I used this skill long ago on Stam Sorc but dumped it due to higher cost and taking to long to be competitive.

would you use it again, if the cost would get lowered, and the skill would scale correctly with CP, and proccing sets correctly?

Lord_Eomer · January 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

I used this skill long ago on Stam Sorc but dumped it due to higher cost and taking to long to be competitive.

would you use it again, if the cost would get lowered, and the skill would scale correctly with CP, and proccing sets correctly?

Make very much sense to use it again but cast time is bit higher and shall reduce too.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

I used this skill long ago on Stam Sorc but dumped it due to higher cost and taking to long to be competitive.

would you use it again, if the cost would get lowered, and the skill would scale correctly with CP, and proccing sets correctly?

Make very much sense to use it again but cast time is bit higher and shall reduce too.

jeah the channel is putting many ppl off i guess, but its what makes this skill unique.

del9 · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

Well that was uncalled for. You can see yourself out now. (Also get good lol)

He brings up a good point. Rending’s cost is way lower, such that people use it as a spammable. It doesn’t have a channel time and it applies a long strong dot. I’d agree they could close the gap on the cost.

Another problem entirely, which’ll Likely never get fixed is how broken Maelstrom DW is. Careful using it OP it may not be doing what you think it is.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

del9 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

Well that was uncalled for. You can see yourself out now. (Also get good lol)

He brings up a good point. Rending’s cost is way lower, such that people use it as a spammable. It doesn’t have a channel time and it applies a long strong dot. I’d agree they could close the gap on the cost.

Another problem entirely, which’ll Likely never get fixed is how broken Maelstrom DW is. Careful using it OP it may not be doing what you think it is.

Actually on PTS the cruel flurry buff, provided by vMA DW is working fine, its consumed by certain skills, it may should not, but else its working great

by adapdting the rotation, its working great...but RS are a bit the concern I have, since they drain stam way too hard

Lord_Eomer · January 2019

del9 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

Well that was uncalled for. You can see yourself out now. (Also get good lol)

He brings up a good point. Rending’s cost is way lower, such that people use it as a spammable. It doesn’t have a channel time and it applies a long strong dot. I’d agree they could close the gap on the cost.

Another problem entirely, which’ll Likely never get fixed is how broken Maelstrom DW is. Careful using it OP it may not be doing what you think it is.

Currently this skill is hardly used by anyone, give any popular streamer using this skill on his build.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Sweeet. Another fan fiction post about what some random dude thinks “insert ability” is supposed to do in order to accommodate their own playstyle.

Neat.

Well that was uncalled for. You can see yourself out now. (Also get good lol)

He brings up a good point. Rending’s cost is way lower, such that people use it as a spammable. It doesn’t have a channel time and it applies a long strong dot. I’d agree they could close the gap on the cost.

Another problem entirely, which’ll Likely never get fixed is how broken Maelstrom DW is. Careful using it OP it may not be doing what you think it is.

Currently this skill is hardly used by anyone, give any popular streamer using this skill on his build.

jeah, but many ppl I spoke to would love to play the old vMA DK build again, and it seems viable...but Rapid Strikes so super buggy, this might turn them off again.

and the Build is viable on PTS, same or even more DPS then advancing Yokeda...so it would finally bring some diversity into gearsets

redspecter23 · January 2019

I somehow feel that this post is more likely to end up getting rending slashes nerfed rather than buffing flurry.

I do feel flurry is quite underwhelming at this time and it's poor overall design that leads to a single target dot outperforming what is obviously meant to be a spammable.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

I somehow feel that this post is more likely to end up getting rending slashes nerfed rather than buffing flurry.

I do feel flurry is quite underwhelming at this time and it's poor overall design that leads to a single target dot outperforming what is obviously meant to be a spammable.

well lets be honest, Rending slashes woudlnt suffer super har if its costs would be increased, for a bleed 2190 Stamina cost is super low, the skill is already a topic for PVP reasons, maybe a cost increase is what Rending needs.

I see the point you're making, that it will more likley end up in a Rending nerf than in a Flurry buff, but the topic has to be discussed, no matter the actual consecuenses.

what do you mean with "poor overall design", that is a channeled ability or something else?

Minno · January 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

I somehow feel that this post is more likely to end up getting rending slashes nerfed rather than buffing flurry.

I do feel flurry is quite underwhelming at this time and it's poor overall design that leads to a single target dot outperforming what is obviously meant to be a spammable.

Not that any of us are complaining

redspecter23 · January 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I somehow feel that this post is more likely to end up getting rending slashes nerfed rather than buffing flurry.

I do feel flurry is quite underwhelming at this time and it's poor overall design that leads to a single target dot outperforming what is obviously meant to be a spammable.

well lets be honest, Rending slashes woudlnt suffer super har if its costs would be increased, for a bleed 2190 Stamina cost is super low, the skill is already a topic for PVP reasons, maybe a cost increase is what Rending needs.

I see the point you're making, that it will more likley end up in a Rending nerf than in a Flurry buff, but the topic has to be discussed, no matter the actual consecuenses.

what do you mean with "poor overall design", that is a channeled ability or something else?

The poor design is having an ability with a role (spammable) that doesn't perform that role as well as a dot based ability. It would be like if mutagen outperformed breath of life for single target burst healing as well as hitting multiple players and applying a hot. The hot should be weaker, but apply over time. The burst should hit faster (or instant) and hit harder. It's poor design to make a dot that is better than a spammable in that role in nearly every way.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I somehow feel that this post is more likely to end up getting rending slashes nerfed rather than buffing flurry.

I do feel flurry is quite underwhelming at this time and it's poor overall design that leads to a single target dot outperforming what is obviously meant to be a spammable.

well lets be honest, Rending slashes woudlnt suffer super har if its costs would be increased, for a bleed 2190 Stamina cost is super low, the skill is already a topic for PVP reasons, maybe a cost increase is what Rending needs.

I see the point you're making, that it will more likley end up in a Rending nerf than in a Flurry buff, but the topic has to be discussed, no matter the actual consecuenses.

what do you mean with "poor overall design", that is a channeled ability or something else?

The poor design is having an ability with a role (spammable) that doesn't perform that role as well as a dot based ability. It would be like if mutagen outperformed breath of life for single target burst healing as well as hitting multiple players and applying a hot. The hot should be weaker, but apply over time. The burst should hit faster (or instant) and hit harder. It's poor design to make a dot that is better than a spammable in that role in nearly every way.

true, as long as other non spammable skills perform on the same lvl, then RS will be outperformed.

susmitds · January 2019

The reason, Rapid Strikes lost favor was two things. The first being, the change in CP system in Morrowind, allowed direct damage attacks to benefit from it, letting skills like Surprise Attack beat Flurry in raw damage. The next is the light attack meta.

The issue with vMA DW beating 5pc gear sets in damage is that class-skills like Surprise Attack or Cutting Dive will be useless again for PvE in the vMA DW era of dominance.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

susmitds wrote: »

The reason, Rapid Strikes lost favor was two things. The first being, the change in CP system in Morrowind, allowed direct damage attacks to benefit from it, letting skills like Surprise Attack beat Flurry in raw damage. The next is the light attack meta.

The issue with vMA DW beating 5pc gear sets in damage is that class-skills like Surprise Attack or Cutting Dive will be useless again for PvE in the vMA DW era of dominance.

no offense but I dont understand what you want to say here...
vMA DW is IMO only worth on DK's since they have the most Dots, and atm you wont even slot RS with vMA DW on NB if it would buff the ST Dots by 3k instead of 2k, since as you mentioned, Direct dmg is way to OP....

For Stam DK's it would be really nice, to see a small buff towars Flurry and its Morphs, as long as NB ect do equal DMG without vMA DW

Left4Daud · January 2019

It shouldn’t take an arena weapon buff to make a skill viable imo. They need to fix the problems with the base skill design.

Masel · January 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The reason, Rapid Strikes lost favor was two things. The first being, the change in CP system in Morrowind, allowed direct damage attacks to benefit from it, letting skills like Surprise Attack beat Flurry in raw damage. The next is the light attack meta.

The issue with vMA DW beating 5pc gear sets in damage is that class-skills like Surprise Attack or Cutting Dive will be useless again for PvE in the vMA DW era of dominance.

no offense but I dont understand what you want to say here...
vMA DW is IMO only worth on DK's since they have the most Dots, and atm you wont even slot RS with vMA DW on NB if it would buff the ST Dots by 3k instead of 2k, since as you mentioned, Direct dmg is way to OP....

For Stam DK's it would be really nice, to see a small buff towars Flurry and its Morphs, as long as NB ect do equal DMG without vMA DW

Try empowering every dot you have with flurry on a dk, it's impossible.

Problem with vMA dual wield is that rearming trap still consumes the buff twice, which makes the rotation quite unpredictable since it will often take away a buff for another skill.

Add that to the list of issues.

BadShogun · January 2019

Left4Daud wrote: »

It shouldn’t take an arena weapon buff to make a skill viable imo. They need to fix the problems with the base skill design.

It's not even a buff to the arena weapons, it's only performing well now on the PTS due to the new changes to Deadly Strikes.

And as Masel said, the rotation is unpredicable due to the issue with rearming trap, in addition to the problems with Rapid Strikes being a channel that can be cancelled unintentionally, which not only reduces the damage output of the skill, but anything ( vMA DW ) relying on it for a damage modifying proc.

vesselwiththepestle · January 2019

I don't want to do a LA rotation with Flurry. The channel time DESTROYS my rhythm, because the pauses between hitting a skill and the next light attack are different with Flurry. I can't imagine I am the only one.

It might be easier to weave in a heavy attack rotation. That's why I am looking into Mephala again. However, still patiently waiting for EU character copies on PTS...

Nevertheless, all those issues have to be solved and bugs have to be fixed.

WrathOfInnos · January 2019

It would be cool to see Maelstrom dual wield among the top DPS sets again. I always liked the concept: if you farm the hardest solo content for gear AND swap to a longer and more complicated rotation of alternating DoTs and channeled spammables, you were rewarded with slightly higher DPS.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

usmcjdking · January 2019

Everything about this skill sucks. Between the *** pinching animation, to the awful damage, to it seemingly not proccing anything but implosion.

There's no hope for it. It needs to join Haste in the pantheon of skills that don't work.

Vapirko · January 2019

I’d love to see this skill implemented properly. Would help stamina DKs and stamina sorcs in PvP also. It would just have to be distinguishable from templar jabs so that it doesn’t outshine it and make jabs obsolete.

Ideally it would offer a bit more burst damage somehow, but again it would be dangerously close to jabs.