Lets talk about Flurry / Rapid Strikes / Bloodthirst Updated 28.01 16UTC

SaintSubwayy

Masel wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The reason, Rapid Strikes lost favor was two things. The first being, the change in CP system in Morrowind, allowed direct damage attacks to benefit from it, letting skills like Surprise Attack beat Flurry in raw damage. The next is the light attack meta.

The issue with vMA DW beating 5pc gear sets in damage is that class-skills like Surprise Attack or Cutting Dive will be useless again for PvE in the vMA DW era of dominance.

no offense but I dont understand what you want to say here...
vMA DW is IMO only worth on DK's since they have the most Dots, and atm you wont even slot RS with vMA DW on NB if it would buff the ST Dots by 3k instead of 2k, since as you mentioned, Direct dmg is way to OP....

For Stam DK's it would be really nice, to see a small buff towars Flurry and its Morphs, as long as NB ect do equal DMG without vMA DW

Try empowering every dot you have with flurry on a dk, it's impossible.

Problem with vMA dual wield is that rearming trap still consumes the buff twice, which makes the rotation quite unpredictable since it will often take away a buff for another skill.

Add that to the list of issues.

I personally never had issues with the trap consuming the buff tbh.

Just use poison injectio n first when swapping to backbar, and the second trap proc I my have been super lucky ^^

I also could empower all dots (except trap and aoe dots) jeah hail ran out for like a second, but I blame that on pts performance till I can test it live

However I really like the synergy vMA DW provides in combo with Daedly Strike, this might bring vMA DK build back to live, which actually aint a bad thing tbh...finally something different on stamina builds than AY, Relequen, Veli setup.

Sinolai

When StamSorc rather uses flying blade as spammable than this something has gone wrong.

SaintSubwayy

Sinolai wrote: »

When StamSorc rather uses flying blade as spammable than this something has gone wrong.

atm stamsorcs use rending slashes as spammables...so something has gone even worse dont you think? ^^

Hearts_Wake

The skill does need a cost reduction. You have my vote.

John_Falstaff

To be frank, aside from cost (which is a huge problem on its own - a non-redguard would have issue sustaining that), the fact that it's a channel is immensely annoying. And not even weaving (I can weave it just fine), but the fact that it has to be kept on target whole channel duration while the target might be moving - so, if I observed it right, some of the jabs may not go through in real situation. And Cruel Flurry buff only appears if the last jab have landed. It's a huge nuisance about Rapid Strikes.

SaintSubwayy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

To be frank, aside from cost (which is a huge problem on its own - a non-redguard would have issue sustaining that), the fact that it's a channel is immensely annoying. And not even weaving (I can weave it just fine), but the fact that it has to be kept on target whole channel duration while the target might be moving - so, if I observed it right, some of the jabs may not go through in real situation. And Cruel Flurry buff only appears if the last jab have landed. It's a huge nuisance about Rapid Strikes.

so in a nutshell:
Reduce costs (actually on orcs its not as bad, since they sustain via weapon skills)
make it a small AOE, so moving targets are easyier to hit (aoe is just an idea)
change vMA DW to grant the buff earlier in the channel (or remove channel at all)

is that about right?

Personally I do like the channel, since its something different from instant casts, like all other spammables are.

John_Falstaff

@SaintSubwayy , I think that sounds about right. Cost needs reduction (on khajiit DK, sustaining it is next to impossible without added regen - I'm basically pigeonholed into Claw pseudo-spammable). Making it AoE might not be a bad idea (something like a narrow short-duration Cloak with five ticks), and hopefully grant Cruel Flurry buff on cast, not on last jab.

I would rather vote for making it an instant cast, but I'd be content with making it a channel, just as long as it won't be so finicky to land when everything is moving - because right now, channeling it is like trying to keep a running mob in a flashlight's spot; slightly wrong angle, and one of the strikes didn't land. If all strikes were a single "hit or miss" package, I'd be a happy camper and wouldn't mind it being a channel.

SaintSubwayy

@John_Falstaff thx for the inputs
Gona update the initial post in the next days to summon up things that need tweaking to make thw skill viable again

John_Falstaff

@SaintSubwayy , thanks for rooting for the skill, I'd like it to be viable again. ^^ (Also, edit of a typo in my post - making it AoE may not be a good bad idea. I think it's like Biting Jabs work? If so, it's probably not bad at all.)

SaintSubwayy

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@SaintSubwayy , thanks for rooting for the skill, I'd like it to be viable again. ^^ (Also, edit of a typo in my post - making it AoE may not be a good bad idea. I think it's like Biting Jabs work? If so, it's probably not bad at all.)

Jeah that was kinda my idea behind the aoe rhing...but the jabs wont be unique anymore, which also aint great
Making the skill a hit or miss for all stabs may be better, if you land one all lther will land aswell.

Teeba_Shei

IT was good at procing enchants and implosion, but with dual wield enchants being nerfed and implosion being removed this skill has lost all value to me as a stam sorc.

The problem with hidden blade is the sheer number of dks and wardens preventing or reflecting the damage back at me. That is why you see people just using rending and then spamming steel tornado.

SaintSubwayy

Synapsis123 wrote: »

IT was good at procing enchants and implosion, but with dual wield enchants being nerfed and implosion being removed this skill has lost all value to me as a stam sorc.

Jeah i get that...furthermore its not proccing sets like advancing yokeda too..which is widely used on stamsorcs aswell.
But the dw enchant nerf effects all dw skills, RS just happend to be underused and now it feels even worse
The Implosion nerf overall IMO is a good thing, DPS should overall increase on a stamsorc (except enchant nerf)
Someone already made a test on enchants and poisons you may wana checkt that out

SaintSubwayy

Updated the Initial Post with feedback that has been provided so far...keep it comin boys n girls!

Holycannoli

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

NOBODY runs this skill end game. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Not A Soul. When was the last time an 810 hit you with Rapid Strikes in PvP? NEVER

This is not some nich skill here. This is the spammable skill for a major weapon skill line that has a slotted rate of like 0.1% if that high at end game.

My problem is as a stam sorc I don't know what to replace it with for a spammable. Steel Tornado is expensive to spam on a single target. Shrouded Daggers can work as a spammable maybe but it's also a bit expensive for it, plus I use the self-healing morph and it does wonders for my survivability.

But yes it's expensive to spam.

For end game what you recommend as a spammable for stam sorc? I respecced out of 2-handed with the Wrecking Blow nerf. and there's no other option really other than Shrouded Daggers (for single target).

SaintSubwayy

Holycannoli wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

NOBODY runs this skill end game. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Not A Soul. When was the last time an 810 hit you with Rapid Strikes in PvP? NEVER

This is not some nich skill here. This is the spammable skill for a major weapon skill line that has a slotted rate of like 0.1% if that high at end game.

My problem is as a stam sorc I don't know what to replace it with for a spammable. Steel Tornado is expensive to spam on a single target. Shrouded Daggers can work as a spammable maybe but it's also a bit expensive for it, plus I use the self-healing morph and it does wonders for my survivability.

But yes it's expensive to spam.

For end game what you recommend as a spammable for stam sorc? I respecced out of 2-handed with the Wrecking Blow nerf. and there's no other option really other than Shrouded Daggers (for single target).

Many stamsorcs spam rendimg slashes....which is not the idea of the skill, but has higher dps then crushing weapon and is also cheaper then rapid strikes or shrouded daggers

LiquidPony

Holycannoli wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

NOBODY runs this skill end game. Zero, Zilch, Nada, Not A Soul. When was the last time an 810 hit you with Rapid Strikes in PvP? NEVER

This is not some nich skill here. This is the spammable skill for a major weapon skill line that has a slotted rate of like 0.1% if that high at end game.

My problem is as a stam sorc I don't know what to replace it with for a spammable. Steel Tornado is expensive to spam on a single target. Shrouded Daggers can work as a spammable maybe but it's also a bit expensive for it, plus I use the self-healing morph and it does wonders for my survivability.

But yes it's expensive to spam.

For end game what you recommend as a spammable for stam sorc? I respecced out of 2-handed with the Wrecking Blow nerf. and there's no other option really other than Shrouded Daggers (for single target).

Crushing Weapon or Rending Slashes.

With the upcoming changes on PTS, be a Redguard and you can easily sustain Rapid Strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable because of the 8% cost reduction.

Onefrkncrzypope

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The reason, Rapid Strikes lost favor was two things. The first being, the change in CP system in Morrowind, allowed direct damage attacks to benefit from it, letting skills like Surprise Attack beat Flurry in raw damage. The next is the light attack meta.

The issue with vMA DW beating 5pc gear sets in damage is that class-skills like Surprise Attack or Cutting Dive will be useless again for PvE in the vMA DW era of dominance.

no offense but I dont understand what you want to say here...
vMA DW is IMO only worth on DK's since they have the most Dots, and atm you wont even slot RS with vMA DW on NB if it would buff the ST Dots by 3k instead of 2k, since as you mentioned, Direct dmg is way to OP....

For Stam DK's it would be really nice, to see a small buff towars Flurry and its Morphs, as long as NB ect do equal DMG without vMA DW

Try empowering every dot you have with flurry on a dk, it's impossible.

Problem with vMA dual wield is that rearming trap still consumes the buff twice, which makes the rotation quite unpredictable since it will often take away a buff for another skill.

Add that to the list of issues.

I personally never had issues with the trap consuming the buff tbh.

Just use poison injectio n first when swapping to backbar, and the second trap proc I my have been super lucky ^^

I also could empower all dots (except trap and aoe dots) jeah hail ran out for like a second, but I blame that on pts performance till I can test it live

However I really like the synergy vMA DW provides in combo with Daedly Strike, this might bring vMA DK build back to live, which actually aint a bad thing tbh...finally something different on stamina builds than AY, Relequen, Veli setup.

Flurry claw flurry trap rending flurry barswap. Leave poison inject until the barswap back to dw due to poison scales with bar on first tick... I am hitting over 70k in group on console with an imperial.

Ladislao

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

SaintSubwayy

Ladislao wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

well atm rending slashes performs way better than flurry...so why should i use flurry?
its more expensive, deals unreliable dmg and is harder to play due to the channel xD

Holycannoli

LiquidPony wrote: »

Crushing Weapon or Rending Slashes.

With the upcoming changes on PTS, be a Redguard and you can easily sustain Rapid Strikes or Wrecking Blow as a spammable because of the 8% cost reduction.

I'm imperial stam sorc (FML after the patch). Never considered Rending Slash as a spammable but yeah it does do more damage.

If after the patch DW doesn't work for me anymore I can go back to 2-handed and Dizzying Swing. I'm liking the self-heal from the DW morphs though.

A simple stamina reduction for Flurry can go a long way IMO.

Ladislao

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

well atm rending slashes performs way better than flurry...so why should i use flurry?
its more expensive, deals unreliable dmg and is harder to play due to the channel xD

Because it is the only non-class DoT spam ability, you know. Despite the facts you described, Twin Slashes is not DoT spam ability and it will not help you proc DoT effects more often (unlike Flurry).

Therefore, it is difficult to assess the balance of Flurry, when only one class has a real alternative (and not pseudo alternatives like Twin Slashes, Whirlwind, Imbue Weapon, etc).

SaintSubwayy

Ladislao wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

well atm rending slashes performs way better than flurry...so why should i use flurry?
its more expensive, deals unreliable dmg and is harder to play due to the channel xD

Because it is the only non-class DoT spam ability, you know. Despite the facts you described, Twin Slashes is not DoT spam ability and it will not help you proc DoT effects more often (unlike Flurry).

Therefore, it is difficult to assess the balance of Flurry, when only one class has a real alternative (and not pseudo alternatives like Twin Slashes, Whirlwind, Imbue Weapon, etc).

One Class?
NB, Warden and Templar have all class spammables, only classes which have to rely on Weapon or guild skills are DK and Sorc.

Kalitas

I would love for them to just remove this skill from the game. Getting this spammed on you in pvp is beyond annoying.

SaintSubwayy

Kalitas wrote: »

I would love for them to just remove this skill from the game. Getting this spammed on you in pvp is beyond annoying.

so let me ask you...Is getting spammed with Jabs feeling better?

what makes the skill annoying when spammed at you?

Ladislao

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

well atm rending slashes performs way better than flurry...so why should i use flurry?
its more expensive, deals unreliable dmg and is harder to play due to the channel xD

Because it is the only non-class DoT spam ability, you know. Despite the facts you described, Twin Slashes is not DoT spam ability and it will not help you proc DoT effects more often (unlike Flurry).

Therefore, it is difficult to assess the balance of Flurry, when only one class has a real alternative (and not pseudo alternatives like Twin Slashes, Whirlwind, Imbue Weapon, etc).

One Class?
NB, Warden and Templar have all class spammables, only classes which have to rely on Weapon or guild skills are DK and Sorc.

Templars have Puncturing Strikes and that's all. The other examples are not DoT spammable.

Perhaps you should re-read my posts to understand what I am talking about.

SaintSubwayy

Ladislao wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The worst part of flurry is the way the last hits scales, it gets worse the more percentage amps you add to the base. This makes the skill weaker then it ought to be, around 10%+ weaker, I did a test a few months ago, read here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441718/flurry-and-morphs-300-final-hit-not-scaling-correctly-from-percent-amps, I will be updating this from some testing on the PTS Soon.

Pretty much this.

I'm not sure about the need for cost reduction. But it is definitely necessary to fix existing bugs.
In the end, this is still a unique skill. So if you want to use non-class DoT spam ability you will use Flurry anyways.

well atm rending slashes performs way better than flurry...so why should i use flurry?
its more expensive, deals unreliable dmg and is harder to play due to the channel xD

Because it is the only non-class DoT spam ability, you know. Despite the facts you described, Twin Slashes is not DoT spam ability and it will not help you proc DoT effects more often (unlike Flurry).

Therefore, it is difficult to assess the balance of Flurry, when only one class has a real alternative (and not pseudo alternatives like Twin Slashes, Whirlwind, Imbue Weapon, etc).

One Class?
NB, Warden and Templar have all class spammables, only classes which have to rely on Weapon or guild skills are DK and Sorc.

Templars have Puncturing Strikes and that's all. The other examples are not DoT spammable.

Perhaps you should re-read my posts to understand what I am talking about.

ah now I get it ^^

well jeah thats true, templar is the only Class with a class Dot spammable...but on Templar you're actually nearly forced to run jabs, because of Burning Light passive.

SugaComa

Spammable doesn't always mean cheap ... It's means something you can use repeatedly in a fight ...

Realistically you can spam anything if you can keep it up and it's doing its job

While I get the frustration with the skill I don't think it should be sub 2500 cost hell I'm not sure it should be sub 3000 but my biggest worry is you're basically asking for another skill to be added to the dual weild set up that is both high damage and cheap, making pretty much the whole skill line spammable and that's not how it should be

I think all skill should be reowrked in my opinion but that for a different thread

SaintSubwayy

SugaComa wrote: »

Spammable doesn't always mean cheap ... It's means something you can use repeatedly in a fight ...

Realistically you can spam anything if you can keep it up and it's doing its job

While I get the frustration with the skill I don't think it should be sub 2500 cost hell I'm not sure it should be sub 3000 but my biggest worry is you're basically asking for another skill to be added to the dual weild set up that is both high damage and cheap, making pretty much the whole skill line spammable and that's not how it should be

I think all skill should be reowrked in my opinion but that for a different thread

actually I think that the spammables should definetly be cheaper than Dots.

The fact that Rending Slashes has a 2190 Bastcost, while Rapids have 2700 Basecost is kinda offputting for me, especially considering the High initial DMG on rending, thats what makes them be used as Spammables.

But if you have an Idea on how the skill should look, the throw it in here...thats what this thread is here for