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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 11
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 11
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.0.4 is available.
Zergsolver?
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it
Really like this idea -- two flags right next to each other always seemed dull. Even though it might not change much, I'd like to see this implemented. Maybe put the 3rd flag atop main gate tower.
You know what i would like? DAoC-style keeps. Multiple levels, twisting corridors, plenty of chokepoints, and a badass raid-boss style keep lord at the top.
Good times... 0 -
Zacuel✭✭✭✭✭
✭If there only was a "pvp responsibly" mentality.
But there isn't.
I try to have fun in cyrodiil despite a lot of the crap.0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭How about mass living bomb. Much like some trial and dungeon mechanics, you have to separate or die to stacked explosionsEU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Geez, why not thermonuclear weapons so solo players can get their wish and take out an alliance. /s2 -
wsmith97ub17_ESO✭✭✭Easy, 1k percent decrease to DPS and healing when in close proximity (9 meters) to fellows in cyrodiil longer than 10 seconds.Done.It is the mind, that is the mind, confusing the mind. Do not leave the mind, oh mind, to the mind.0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭real solution to ball groups is having heals less effective the more people they are used on. Make healing more challenging than spamming two buttons.(done to a degree, bol nerfs made sure you can not turn your ass to the fight yet still heal , that was a good start) Less effective cleanse spam(should be cheaper for solo users,more expensive for group use. No I dont hate templars.), less ridicilous rapids(already done aswell)0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster7 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
Stated perfectly. Outside of raids I'm occasionally in some big 20+ pugs when I'm especially bored of solo. Each and every time they come across a good enemy group and we wipe, they are completely mystified that their numbers and super cool solo builds with a low ratio of healers and no support wasn't more effective.2 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭Good idea tooGive keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it
An interesting idea!
Vicious Death used to be a anti-zerg tool. Not anymore.
The real problem is that pug think they can beat ballgroups. I find amusing to see them chasing and in the end they die to the blob and complain in zone chat.
Ball groups hate being ignored, and that its very effective.Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it
Really like this idea -- two flags right next to each other always seemed dull. Even though it might not change much, I'd like to see this implemented. Maybe put the 3rd flag atop main gate tower.
Lol, I didn't expect to get positive feedback because I just spontaneously posted that.
Well, I have played a lot of Planetside 2 in the last few years and there are always improvements there because the basic contant stays the same like in ESO.
So the point about the flag placement is the following:- Zergs are no longer able to push braindead into inner keeps and turn the flags. Like @Merlight I think that the maingate is a good place for the 3rd flag (but I would prefer indoor on the 1st floor due to siege damage). So people have to split up and protect the outer flag against reinforcement.
- Now ballgroups have the same problem and can not simply oscillate between the flags anymore. So they have to split up too.
- This change would encourage communication via /zone, /say, /yell chat.
- In the course of this, ZOS could also re-position the flags at the outposts (1st flag ground floor, 2nd flag 1st floor).
- It would also hinder nightcapping, as turning a keep with a low number of players is now almost impossible.
- Maybe this could increase the performance a bit further.
PC EU - DC only0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster3 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
RighteousBacon✭✭✭✭Dynamic ult gen is a good place to start if you want players to fight larger groups.
Punishing the zerg for stacking would just make them quit, leaving cyro very empty and boring (what you suggested might be perfect for IC).
Give small scale players the tools, that take a lot of skill, to wipe zergs. Don't auto-wipe zergs which would be boring for everyone.
Boring, or punishing?
Pvpers will always play pvp. Destroying big groups isn't something that could destroy pvp, it can only get better.
And players will adapt to this like they always do. But its at least something they can try
Pvpers will always play pvp...but that doesn’t mean it’s gonna be on ESO’s PvP. BDX is coming out soon and plenty of pvpers have already left or begun to log on less. Be careful here0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The solo player does not think he should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, but he does think he should be able to affect that zerg at all.
That was the problem. The only way a player could make a blob even acknowledge his existence was to drop negate on them. That's it. Anything else got simply ignored (as in, the blob continued to do its thing and did not react to your action at all) because anything you could do was automatically countered by default. Snare? We have a rapids spammer. Debuff? Whe have a purge spammer.
Being able to completely ignore what's happening around you unless it is another blob - that's just bad game design. After this rapids change, at the very least, when i drop an eruption the enemy zerg will be slowed when going over it. Thats already 100% better than before.3 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The solo player does not think he should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, but he does think he should be able to affect that zerg at all.
That was the problem. The only way a player could make a blob even acknowledge his existence was to drop negate on them. That's it. Anything else got simply ignored (as in, the blob continued to do its thing and did not react to your action at all) because anything you could do was automatically countered by default. Snare? We have a rapids spammer. Debuff? Whe have a purge spammer.
Being able to completely ignore what's happening around you unless it is another blob - that's just bad game design. After this rapids change, at the very least, when i drop an eruption the enemy zerg will be slowed when going over it. Thats already 100% better than before.
I think you have a really skewed threshold for what is needed to "affect that zerg at all". Damage still happens to an organized group, it just gets healed because they have healers dedicated to healing. Debuffs still apply, they are just purged by purgers who have specialized in purging. Even snares and roots still affect us because almost all of our buffs temporarily drop rapids, not to mention our heals, our damage skills, etc.
The difference is that, because we have specialists and are working together, a single person can't make a meaningful dent in what we have going on. That's not bad game design, that's entirely desirable. You should have to either throw an overwhelming force of scrubs at a good group to defeat it, or another good group. You should have to coordinate and be a team player if you want to do enough burst damage to take out part of their unit. You shouldn't get to drop a snare on a group of 24 people without any counterplay options. The only people that helps are actual zergs, who already have a good thing going with point-and-click heroism via siege weapons. If you want to make some meaningful impact on an organized group, you should also have to organize. Otherwise you might as well be asking for unhealable damage or some other nonsense.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster5 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle. There are plenty of opportunities to do other types of fighting in Cyrodiil with relatively low risk of running afoul of these groups. But if you want to put yourself in a situation where you are fighting these groups, then you shouldn't expect your someVx tactics, or whatever your preferred alternative fighting style is, to be effective. Why would they be? Seriously, just run some numbers for me. Why should a small group of skilled players be able to take on a large group of skilled players? In what world does that make sense?
You want to talk about dishonesty while acting like OP's skill suggestion isn't a total godmode versus large groups? Please.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster2 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle. There are plenty of opportunities to do other types of fighting in Cyrodiil with relatively low risk of running afoul of these groups. But if you want to put yourself in a situation where you are fighting these groups, then you shouldn't expect your someVx tactics, or whatever your preferred alternative fighting style is, to be effective. Why would they be? Seriously, just run some numbers for me. Why should a small group of skilled players be able to take on a large group of skilled players? In what world does that make sense?
You want to talk about dishonesty while acting like OP's skill suggestion isn't a total godmode versus large groups? Please.
You're right, a small group taking on a large group of equally skilled players is very much the exception. And whatever ZOS does, it will stay that way. For the simple fact that whatever that small group does, the large group can do as well, and then some. This requires no systemic favouring of a certain playstyle whatsoever.
Now you say organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle because they can just avoid them? What kind of an argument is that? Are one shots from stealth fine because you can go to some empty part of Cyrodiil where you will encounter no other players anyway? Of course not. Not only does this line of reasoning lead to the conclusion that whatever some zergball decides to do at that time is not an option for anyone not playing the same way, it also conveniently ignores that this being a PvP zone, with players generally wanting to fight other players, if no other players want to fight that zergball, it will move to them instead.
Now, whereever did I say I wanted smallscale tactics to be effective in large scale? Yeah, you just made that up again. What I want is any player in Cyrodiil in a somewhat well rounded build to potentially be effective (by using their skills, not just siege) in any encounter. That doesn't mean they need to somehow beat larger groups of equally skilled players (again, if that were a thing it would mean that larger group wasn't actually as good to begin with, because they have access to all the same tools), that simply means the game should be designed in such a way that they can feel useful in whatever situation.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle. There are plenty of opportunities to do other types of fighting in Cyrodiil with relatively low risk of running afoul of these groups. But if you want to put yourself in a situation where you are fighting these groups, then you shouldn't expect your someVx tactics, or whatever your preferred alternative fighting style is, to be effective. Why would they be? Seriously, just run some numbers for me. Why should a small group of skilled players be able to take on a large group of skilled players? In what world does that make sense?
You want to talk about dishonesty while acting like OP's skill suggestion isn't a total godmode versus large groups? Please.
You're right, a small group taking on a large group of equally skilled players is very much the exception. And whatever ZOS does, it will stay that way. For the simple fact that whatever that small group does, the large group can do as well, and then some. This requires no systemic favouring of a certain playstyle whatsoever.
Now you say organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle because they can just avoid them? What kind of an argument is that? Are one shots from stealth fine because you can go to some empty part of Cyrodiil where you will encounter no other players anyway? Of course not. Not only does this line of reasoning lead to the conclusion that whatever some zergball decides to do at that time is not an option for anyone not playing the same way, it also conveniently ignores that this being a PvP zone, with players generally wanting to fight other players, if no other players want to fight that zergball, it will move to them instead.
Now, whereever did I say I wanted smallscale tactics to be effective in large scale? Yeah, you just made that up again. What I want is any player in Cyrodiil in a somewhat well rounded build to potentially be effective (by using their skills, not just siege) in any encounter. That doesn't mean they need to somehow beat larger groups of equally skilled players (again, if that were a thing it would mean that larger group wasn't actually as good to begin with, because they have access to all the same tools), that simply means the game should be designed in such a way that they can feel useful in whatever situation.
One shots from stealth are nonexistent unless it's a very high-damage gank build versus some scrub with no armor on. You can easily build to avoid getting one-shot. That is the weirdest counterargument to make. And what's this about the zerball coming to find the smaller groups? How often does that actually happen? Most of us have other organized guilds to fight and can't waste a lot of time chasing down onesie-twosies. Meanwhile there are constant smallscale fights going on all over the map, every single night. In what reality is the poor maligned solo/smallscale group unable to find some niche engagement areas in Cyrodiil? The whole argument falls apart on live.
And I'm not just making things up, I'm drawing completely normal conclusions from the things you've been saying. What are you defining as "useful" when it comes to taking on these organized groups? I really don't understand the metric here beyond "ability to defeat them". Let's just break down all possible actions, as best we can, and see what a solo/smallscale/whatever player can do versus such groups.
Deal Damage : Yup, you can deal damage just fine. We don't have the ability to stop taking damage, we just have good organized healers who make sure you have to meet a burst damage threshold to take one (or more) of us out. Otherwise it gets healed through, which is the same that will happen whether you're fighting one opponent or 24 of them.
Hard Crowd Control : Yup, CC still works. There's no ability that lets you block hard CC (except literally blocking, sometimes) and immovability potions, and you can't have 100% uptime on those no matter how you build. Oh and I guess that heavy armor skill, but people aren't running that. So yeah, you can CC to your heart's content, to the same effect no matter if you're fighting one opponent or 24.
Soft Crowd Control : Yep, still works. The only thing we can use to block soft CC (snares and immobilize) are the small handful of abilities that give immunity to that. One of them (for now) is Retreating Maneuver, but that drops off when you cast 99% of abilities in the game. This is actually why we have rapids "spammers" to begin with. We keep getting caught in an endless stream of massive AoE snares which everyone has easy access to. Even with rapids spam, we get affected by the snare/immobilize for discrete amounts of time. Hell, one type of damage build uses Harmony Jewelry and someone spamming DK Talons specifically because, even with rapids, we still get caught in it for a long enough period to pop the synergy. I really can't think of a better metric for the effectiveness of soft CC than "can be used to slow enemies enough to deal more damage to them". And I really can't overstate this point : counterplay versus snares is an extremely important tool when facing actual zergs. Snares are easy to get, can be applied along vast expanses of the battlefield, and combine with the catapult siege meta to horrendous and synergistic effect. Ubiquitous snares are never going to be the savior of smallscale, they just empower the zerg that can spare the people to break off and set up more catapults. This behavior is even observable at present on live.
Apply Debuff : Yep, debuffs still affect us just fine. Even with purge spammers I find myself constantly affected by poisons, heal debuffs, and other such things simply because debuffs are completely ubiquitous and the best purge spammers can hope for is to just shrink the stack of it.
Does that about cover it? Is there a base I'm missing somewhere? How much more effective do people need to be against an organized group? The ability to do even more damage the more players you hit? Magicka builds already have that with the Detonation morphs. If you want to argue that stam needs a proxy too then sure, I'm all ears, but I'm really not seeing how people can complain about not being effective when they are already 100% as effective versus 24 as they are against one. We don't even have AoE caps anymore.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster4 -
What about adding a limit to the number of people effected by a each heal? Like 1, 2, or 4. And purge only effects 2 to 3 people,
And maybe have skill tool tips differ from when omes in pvp vs pve.
Like purge is a group thing but the tool tip states when in a pvp area it goes down to 2 or 30 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It's an example to bring a point across, not an argument. The point is that this line of reasoning leads to an undesireable outcome for most players, that is play as a zergball or not be competitive in Cyrodiil.The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle. There are plenty of opportunities to do other types of fighting in Cyrodiil with relatively low risk of running afoul of these groups. But if you want to put yourself in a situation where you are fighting these groups, then you shouldn't expect your someVx tactics, or whatever your preferred alternative fighting style is, to be effective. Why would they be? Seriously, just run some numbers for me. Why should a small group of skilled players be able to take on a large group of skilled players? In what world does that make sense?
You want to talk about dishonesty while acting like OP's skill suggestion isn't a total godmode versus large groups? Please.
You're right, a small group taking on a large group of equally skilled players is very much the exception. And whatever ZOS does, it will stay that way. For the simple fact that whatever that small group does, the large group can do as well, and then some. This requires no systemic favouring of a certain playstyle whatsoever.
Now you say organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle because they can just avoid them? What kind of an argument is that? Are one shots from stealth fine because you can go to some empty part of Cyrodiil where you will encounter no other players anyway? Of course not. Not only does this line of reasoning lead to the conclusion that whatever some zergball decides to do at that time is not an option for anyone not playing the same way, it also conveniently ignores that this being a PvP zone, with players generally wanting to fight other players, if no other players want to fight that zergball, it will move to them instead.
Now, whereever did I say I wanted smallscale tactics to be effective in large scale? Yeah, you just made that up again. What I want is any player in Cyrodiil in a somewhat well rounded build to potentially be effective (by using their skills, not just siege) in any encounter. That doesn't mean they need to somehow beat larger groups of equally skilled players (again, if that were a thing it would mean that larger group wasn't actually as good to begin with, because they have access to all the same tools), that simply means the game should be designed in such a way that they can feel useful in whatever situation.
One shots from stealth are nonexistent unless it's a very high-damage gank build versus some scrub with no armor on. You can easily build to avoid getting one-shot. That is the weirdest counterargument to make.
The other organized gruops just happen to play in a relatively similar fashion because they all happened to like it so much, or maybe they just found it acceptable enough to be able to play large scale pvp competitively? Not only does that in no way contradict my point, there are also plenty groups who rather spend their time trying to set up farms in some resource or keep, and if it doesn't work, join in fights between the disorganized faction zergs.And what's this about the zerball coming to find the smaller groups? How often does that actually happen? Most of us have other organized guilds to fight and can't waste a lot of time chasing down onesie-twosies. Meanwhile there are constant smallscale fights going on all over the map, every single night. In what reality is the poor maligned solo/smallscale group unable to find some niche engagement areas in Cyrodiil? The whole argument falls apart on live.And I'm not just making things up, I'm drawing completely normal conclusions from the things you've been saying. What are you defining as "useful" when it comes to taking on these organized groups? I really don't understand the metric here beyond "ability to defeat them". Let's just break down all possible actions, as best we can, and see what a solo/smallscale/whatever player can do versus such groups.
Deal Damage : Yup, you can deal damage just fine. We don't have the ability to stop taking damage, we just have good organized healers who make sure you have to meet a burst damage threshold to take one (or more) of us out. Otherwise it gets healed through, which is the same that will happen whether you're fighting one opponent or 24 of them.
Hard Crowd Control : Yup, CC still works. There's no ability that lets you block hard CC (except literally blocking, sometimes) and immovability potions, and you can't have 100% uptime on those no matter how you build. Oh and I guess that heavy armor skill, but people aren't running that. So yeah, you can CC to your heart's content, to the same effect no matter if you're fighting one opponent or 24.
Soft Crowd Control : Yep, still works. The only thing we can use to block soft CC (snares and immobilize) are the small handful of abilities that give immunity to that. One of them (for now) is Retreating Maneuver, but that drops off when you cast 99% of abilities in the game. This is actually why we have rapids "spammers" to begin with. We keep getting caught in an endless stream of massive AoE snares which everyone has easy access to. Even with rapids spam, we get affected by the snare/immobilize for discrete amounts of time. Hell, one type of damage build uses Harmony Jewelry and someone spamming DK Talons specifically because, even with rapids, we still get caught in it for a long enough period to pop the synergy. I really can't think of a better metric for the effectiveness of soft CC than "can be used to slow enemies enough to deal more damage to them". And I really can't overstate this point : counterplay versus snares is an extremely important tool when facing actual zergs. Snares are easy to get, can be applied along vast expanses of the battlefield, and combine with the catapult siege meta to horrendous and synergistic effect. Ubiquitous snares are never going to be the savior of smallscale, they just empower the zerg that can spare the people to break off and set up more catapults. This behavior is even observable at present on live.
Apply Debuff : Yep, debuffs still affect us just fine. Even with purge spammers I find myself constantly affected by poisons, heal debuffs, and other such things simply because debuffs are completely ubiquitous and the best purge spammers can hope for is to just shrink the stack of it.
Does that about cover it? Is there a base I'm missing somewhere? How much more effective do people need to be against an organized group? The ability to do even more damage the more players you hit? Magicka builds already have that with the Detonation morphs. If you want to argue that stam needs a proxy too then sure, I'm all ears, but I'm really not seeing how people can complain about not being effective when they are already 100% as effective versus 24 as they are against one. We don't even have AoE caps anymore.
You need to be able to force a reaction to create engaging gameplay. Otherwise there is no feedback on your influence on what is happening in the game. But more to the point:
If it was not possible to hit the majority or at least a large part of a large group of players with a single ability - which is what deterrants to stack up like this thread's suggestion are aiming to achieve - abilities which are single target for the most part would become relatively more useful against them compared to pure AoE. Now, if that were the norm, organized groups would create a new meta around it, but it would inevitably end up less restrictive in terms of which kinds of builds can make a serious impact in a fight, which was the point of it all.
Now, like I said in my first post, the current meta is result of several underlying systems favouring it. That would make a "zergbuster" skill with little to no other function somewhat of a band aid. Doesn't mean it's necessarily bad for the game to introduce it, but there are surely better alternatives.
edit: typoEdited by ToRelax on January 25, 2019 11:20AMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭just changing inevitable det to echo much higher damage as well as altering ranged floor targeting abilities to do more damage the more players are in them would go a massive way to countering the blobs.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The two greatest conceits of PvP both revolve around the types of people trying to come after these "unkillable" blob groups.
The first type is a solo player who thinks they should be able to take out a whole zerg with one move, because that's super skilled and balanced somehow.
The second type are folks trying to fight an "unkillable" blob with a "killable" blob. Turns out that grouping up isn't enough and that if you want to do competitive blob fights you actually need to organize and get good at that type of combat.
This is to say that I don't think your idea is good, as it falls into the first category. If you want to take on large numbers of players by yourself then you can't go after a large group of good players. That's an effort born of conceit. If you're going to fight outnumbered then you HAVE to be going against players who are worse/aren't built for the type of combat you're putting them in. Wanting to engineer some new skill that bypasses this essential principle is necessarily fueled by the aforementioned conceit and desire to godmode other players.
Nah, it's just an attempt at changing the meta to something more enjoyable actually.
Nah, just an attempt to god mode other players. It's fine to like dueling, 1vX, someVx, and smallscale fight styles, but when you're coming into an AvA style zone and not only expecting everyone else to conform to your playstyle, but also to make your playstyle somehow perform better than 24 other people at the same time, it's super conceited. Sorry not sorry, the game shouldn't be changed so that a solo player can just walk up to and defeat a full raid of organized players who know what they're doing. Nobody is owed that.
What are you on about. No one is saying that is what should happen. Rather, 24 players who know what they're doing should imply that they do not play in a way which forces every other player to conform to their playstyle.
Stop projecting your preconceptions on other players, you are coming across like someone not even trying to engage in an honest discussion.
Organized groups don't force others to conform to their playstyle. There are plenty of opportunities to do other types of fighting in Cyrodiil with relatively low risk of running afoul of these groups. But if you want to put yourself in a situation where you are fighting these groups, then you shouldn't expect your someVx tactics, or whatever your preferred alternative fighting style is, to be effective. Why would they be? Seriously, just run some numbers for me. Why should a small group of skilled players be able to take on a large group of skilled players? In what world does that make sense?
You want to talk about dishonesty while acting like OP's skill suggestion isn't a total godmode versus large groups? Please.
wut? blobs roam wherever they can roll over people, if everyone went damned cropsford to avoid them guess where mister blobby will go? thats right. cropsford.
the blob doesnt blob to win they blob to get tons of AP.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.2 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
0 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.3 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is war
When you go to war you send an army to attack the enemy location not just 1 or 2 guys
So zerging your way through ennemy fields is a realistic way to play and as many peple on the forum pit it "its an mmo, group up!"1 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen 2 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.1 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭This thread... I wouldn't believe it if i hadn't read it
Cyrodiil is AvAvA that means Alliance versus Alliance versus Alliance.
"Small scale" and "solo" are aberrations in that context.
That trend only started because
a) streamers stream through their own camera, so they favor solo, small group play,
b) there wasn't Dueling nor Battlegrounds for a long time, so any kind of PvP had to happen in the AvAvA map.
In AvAvA, grouping should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Cyrodiil is a War zone, and Wars are won by Armies, not by a bunch of random solo guys doing random solo, small scale stuff. (Some small groups can help taking minor objectives or guard choke points - guerrilla style - but in the end, it's always the Army that wins the War).
This is coming from someone who doesn't give a F about PvP (anymore), I only go there for events, skill points and achievements.
When I go to Cyrodiil, I end up either being solo or zerging borderline stupid zergs, so I know the "pain" of being rolled over by bigger and/or better organised groups. And it is absolutely fine and fair. "C'est la vie!"
grouping should be encouraged. balling so your practically invincible balls of man meat rolling over everything and just eating them should NOT be encouraged.
"Balling" is Organized Group Play.
That's all there is to it, no matter what kind of pejorative term players come up with to refer to it.
If you have issues with Organized Groups, form your own Organized Group to beat them. That's why there are Armies IRL.
Don't expect a group of peasants with pitchforks to defeat a well-trained, well equipped Army, it's just not going to happen
did you just compare balling to real life armies..?
the military would make you spread out or risk explosives or artillery cluster killing you all.
also there have been times where "peasants" have overwhelmed the local armed forces.
See the taking of the Normandy's beaches during WWII for point 1. Also please remember this is a Medieval Fantasy world, looking at how the Roman armies worked would be more accurate (remember the "turtle" tactic, closed ranks stuff?
About point 2: the only time "peasants" have overwhelmed organised armies was when they vastly outnumbered said army.0
