Zergsolver?

Anyron

Over few years there was so many tries to stop this cancer in pvp, to stop unkillable blobs of players moving inside-themselves, bombing everything in way and absolutely immune against any counterattack thats not zerging too ( oils, sieges...)

And there was introduced many ways to stop it. If you starts with some skills ( magicka detonation, destro staff ultimate) to sets ( vicious death)

But all failed because they could use it too and turn it to their advantage.

But is damage really strongest weapon of blobs?zergs? There is something else. Like purge or healing

I got idea for this skill, distances here can be adjusted to ballance it

when used on enemy which is less than --3meters-- close to another enemy, it binds them together with beam ( something similar to gyamne bandu bossfight in fungal grotto2) that converts their healing to damage to self, and is broken if they are more than --5meters-- away. If there is more targets near them they are bound together too. This skill cannot be purged

Thoughts?

Valykc

Sounds like a skill that a coordinated ball group would slot against unorganized pugs who group too close together. I mean it’s a nice try but basically, if anything can be used against them, they will use it against us too. It’s always a double edged sword.

Anyron

Distances can be adjusted but clearly blobs are more together than pugs because its their way to survive.

Ertosi

No ability would ever be a zergsolver. Hostly when its 1vX and the 1 loses, it's not a problem, it's math winning. The many should always beat the few unless those few earned their win through superior ability. Most of us don't so we need to simply get out of the way.


A real solution, should ZOS consider it necessary to discourage zerg gameplay, would be to give players incentive to not clump up. Probably the simplest way would be to create checks for numbers of nearby players on your team vs numbers of nearby players of opposing teams. They would then decide their threshold for overwhelming size to define a "zerg" (it would need to be high enough that legitimate groups aren't affected, unless they are clumping with too many other players or groups) and then penalize said zergs with diminishing returns on their XP and AP gains. Then it's just a matter of finding the right % cut to XP and AP it takes to motivate people to start breaking off into smaller groups.

Of course, everything has it's downside. The downside to making constant casts to find the numbers of nearby players on each side would cost in server performance, which would contribute further to lag, and we know players don't like fighting that either.

Sharee

The nerf to rapids snare purge/immunity is a good start. Lets see how it plays out first.

Anyron

Sharee wrote: »

The nerf to rapids snare purge/immunity is a good start. Lets see how it plays out first.

And curse eater is buffed

Anyron

My point is as solo player ( not because you can't find group but because you wanna be solo) you have no way how to beat this. I was with my brother last night oiling group of ADs with 3 oil each and we barely scratch them to health

Always insta-purge and heal.
And all sides had big player blobs moving together and it was impossible for solo player non-ganker to have some fun

With previous event this was different. It was much more fun because there was mostly players playing with smallscale or solo, only few blobs

Maybe they could add nongroup cyro, but it still can be solved with ts or discord

Deep_01

Dynamic ult gen is a good place to start if you want players to fight larger groups.

Punishing the zerg for stacking would just make them quit, leaving cyro very empty and boring (what you suggested might be perfect for IC).

Give small scale players the tools, that take a lot of skill, to wipe zergs. Don't auto-wipe zergs which would be boring for everyone.

Anyron

Deep_01 wrote: »

Dynamic ult gen is a good place to start if you want players to fight larger groups.

Punishing the zerg for stacking would just make them quit, leaving cyro very empty and boring (what you suggested might be perfect for IC).

Give small scale players the tools, that take a lot of skill, to wipe zergs. Don't auto-wipe zergs which would be boring for everyone.

Boring, or punishing?
Pvpers will always play pvp. Destroying big groups isn't something that could destroy pvp, it can only get better.

And players will adapt to this like they always do. But its at least something they can try

ChefZero

Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it

Anyron

Good idea too

gepe87

ChefZero wrote: »

Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it

An interesting idea!

Vicious Death used to be a anti-zerg tool. Not anymore.

The real problem is that pug think they can beat ballgroups. I find amusing to see them chasing and in the end they die to the blob and complain in zone chat.

Ball groups hate being ignored, and that its very effective.

ToRelax

Zergballing is favoured in various game mechanics.
One is that players have to choose to use certain skills and sets over others in their builds and choosing ones that work well against zergballs will make you very vulnerable.
There isn't anything wrong with having to make choices in your build. On the contrary, that's what makes it interesting and creates diversity. But it would go a long way if more mechanics that can be used in various situations also happened to provide something to fight stacks of players with.
Zergballs on the other hand have plenty of slots and players to run specialized builds.
You can also change mechanics zergballs are using. This is something ZOS has actually been doing several times, for example with the change to Rushed Ceremony requiring you to have the targets in front of you, and they are doing it right now again with Defensive Maneuver. Unfortunately, a very powerful mechanic for zergballs is smarthealing, and that probably isn't going to change, ever.
The scaling things we have, like Detonation, Vicious Death or Master 2-hand can provide some relief, but they aren't going to take away the incentive to stack up in the first place.

edit: typos

Sharee

ToRelax wrote: »

Zergballing is favoured in various game mechanics.
One is that players have to choose to use certain skills and sets over others in their builds and choosing ones that work well against zergballs will make you very vulnerable.
There isn't anything wrong with having to make choices in your build. On the contrary, that's what makes it interesting and creates diversity. But it would go a long way if more mechanics that can be used in various situations also happened to provide something to fight stacks of players with.
Zergballs on the other hand have plenty of slots and players to run specialized builds.
You can also change mechanics zergballs are using. This is something ZOS has actually been doing several times, for example with the change to Rushed Ceremony requiring you to have the targets in front of you, and they are doing it right now again with Defensive Maneuver. Unfortunately, a very powerful mechanic for zergballs is smarthealing, and that probably isn't going to change, ever.
The scaling things we have, like Detonation, Vicious Death or Master 2-hand can provide some relief, but they aren't going to take away the incentive to stack up in the first place.

edit: typos

Organized groups of many players are always going to have an advantage, that's not really a problem.

The problem was their ability to literally ignore almost all effect that this game has thanks to dedicated purge and rapids spammers. The only exception was negate(as it stopped the spam).

After the change to rapids(and the corresponding loss of snare/root immunity), the balls will suddenly become vulnerable to ground-placed effects with strong snares(like the dragonknight eruption) and spam from AOE roots (like bombard). Now there is something to slow them down, or even split them in two (if you snare the back half of the blob only).

It might be enough to provide counterplay. They will still be strong, but at least i won't have the feeling anymore that i can not affect them no matter what i do.

Anyron

Change to rapids could solve something but skills like purge alows them to completely igrone game mechanics like flaming oils or other siege weapons

Everything in this game should be ballanced
Dodge roll = rune cage or any aoe
Shields = shieldbreaker or shattering blows cp
Invisi(nci)bility = detect pots or aoes
Range atacks = dk wings or 1h+Sb skill
Dk wings = force pulse
Healing = meatbag or other healing reduction skills
But if 5/20 players in group keep spamming heals and purge, nothing can harm them enought to kill them because of purge
Next patch (if it stays how it is) curse eater will be another cancerous mechanic to this.

SaintSubwayy

gepe87 wrote: »

ChefZero wrote: »

Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it

An interesting idea!

Vicious Death used to be a anti-zerg tool. Not anymore.

The real problem is that pug think they can beat ballgroups. I find amusing to see them chasing and in the end they die to the blob and complain in zone chat.

Ball groups hate being ignored, and that its very effective.

Just switch VD to deal double the DMG to groupmembers, and normals DMG to players ooutside of Groups, and it will make it way harder for PVP ballgroups on a whole new lvl.

Play as a group and get wrecked by VD, or play Solo zergstyle, making them easier to pick off.

Curseeater should only work on yourself and Groupmembers, but not on random allies, same goes for Purge and goodbye Ballgroups.

Anyron

Curse eater working only in group is even worse than on random players

I wasnt here for some time, and so far after my break i was only solo or 2men but i think purge and rapids works only for group members, or am i wrong? If iam, sorry

SaintSubwayy

Anyron wrote: »

Curse eater working only in group is even worse than on random players

I wasnt here for some time but i think purge and rapids works only for group members, or am i wrong? If iam, sorry

so you'd have to choose, run Curseeater in a Group, but get double the dmg from VD procs, or run outside of grps taking normal VD procs.

Another problem is to first of all kill someone in a ballgroup,

Anyron

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Curse eater working only in group is even worse than on random players

I wasnt here for some time but i think purge and rapids works only for group members, or am i wrong? If iam, sorry

so you'd have to choose, run Curseeater in a Group, but get double the dmg from VD procs, or run outside of grps taking normal VD procs.

Another problem is to first of all kill someone in a ballgroup,

Thats why vicious death is almost extinct build. And even when it goes out now, 10k isnt much

SaintSubwayy

or maybe a new set...Glorious Death

When killed by an enemy you explode for X Flamedmg, the DMG is increased by 20% for each enemy in range of 5meter arround your killer up to a Max of 200%.

You die to their VD, they Die to your and your allies death

Just slot this and VD on your own, and they wipe by killing you and 2 other ppl in an instant

jeskah

Change inevitable detonation (mag det ranged morph, do not remember the axact name) to instant cast, lower singlentarget damage, increase aoe damage.

SaintSubwayy

jeskah wrote: »

Change inevitable detonation (mag det ranged morph, do not remember the axact name) to instant cast, lower singlentarget damage, increase aoe damage.

will just get purged off in an instand with the new curseeater set, purge ect.

Anyron

Change mag detonation to scale damage like this +0 to +100% damage if hits 1-6 players (one = initial damage on tooltip, +20% damage/player to 6 players total at 100% damage increased)for every other player damage increase by another +100%

Anyron

Only targeted morph ofc, when purged it explodes instant

Thraben

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

or maybe a new set...Glorious Death

When killed by an enemy you explode for X Flamedmg, the DMG is increased by 20% for each enemy in range of 5meter arround your killer up to a Max of 200%.

You die to their VD, they Die to your and your allies death

Just slot this and VD on your own, and they wipe by killing you and 2 other ppl in an instant

That does exist: It's called the Phoenix/ VD set suicide squad

SaintSubwayy

Thraben wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

or maybe a new set...Glorious Death

When killed by an enemy you explode for X Flamedmg, the DMG is increased by 20% for each enemy in range of 5meter arround your killer up to a Max of 200%.

You die to their VD, they Die to your and your allies death

Just slot this and VD on your own, and they wipe by killing you and 2 other ppl in an instant

That does exist: It's called the Phoenix/ VD set suicide squad

jeah well I was thinking more about actually dying, but dealeing a crapload more DMG, like 2-4 time phoenix DMG

Sharee

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

jeskah wrote: »

Change inevitable detonation (mag det ranged morph, do not remember the axact name) to instant cast, lower singlentarget damage, increase aoe damage.

will just get purged off in an instand with the new curseeater set, purge ect.

Inevitable detonation explodes when purged - thats why its called inevitable.

SaintSubwayy

Sharee wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

jeskah wrote: »

Change inevitable detonation (mag det ranged morph, do not remember the axact name) to instant cast, lower singlentarget damage, increase aoe damage.

will just get purged off in an instand with the new curseeater set, purge ect.

Inevitable detonation explodes when purged - thats why its called inevitable.

didnt know that, thx for the update

ToRelax

Sharee wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Zergballing is favoured in various game mechanics.
One is that players have to choose to use certain skills and sets over others in their builds and choosing ones that work well against zergballs will make you very vulnerable.
There isn't anything wrong with having to make choices in your build. On the contrary, that's what makes it interesting and creates diversity. But it would go a long way if more mechanics that can be used in various situations also happened to provide something to fight stacks of players with.
Zergballs on the other hand have plenty of slots and players to run specialized builds.
You can also change mechanics zergballs are using. This is something ZOS has actually been doing several times, for example with the change to Rushed Ceremony requiring you to have the targets in front of you, and they are doing it right now again with Defensive Maneuver. Unfortunately, a very powerful mechanic for zergballs is smarthealing, and that probably isn't going to change, ever.
The scaling things we have, like Detonation, Vicious Death or Master 2-hand can provide some relief, but they aren't going to take away the incentive to stack up in the first place.

edit: typos

Organized groups of many players are always going to have an advantage, that's not really a problem.

The problem was their ability to literally ignore almost all effect that this game has thanks to dedicated purge and rapids spammers. The only exception was negate(as it stopped the spam).

After the change to rapids(and the corresponding loss of snare/root immunity), the balls will suddenly become vulnerable to ground-placed effects with strong snares(like the dragonknight eruption) and spam from AOE roots (like bombard). Now there is something to slow them down, or even split them in two (if you snare the back half of the blob only).

It might be enough to provide counterplay. They will still be strong, but at least i won't have the feeling anymore that i can not affect them no matter what i do.

I wasn't arguing that they have an advantage. That is always going to be there, period. But as is they have an overwhelming advantage in simple game mechanics, to the point where organized large scale pvp that doesn't involve stacking PBAoEs for the majority of dmg output is almost unheard of.
And players outside at least in part decitated zerg busting builds either zerg them down with overwhelming numbers or feel completely useless for objective based pvp.

Galarthor

The key to stopping Zergballs is to:

1) make AoE abilities unattractive in PvP (not all of them but most - e.g. the explosion from Curse or templar Jabs are ok)
2) make AoE healing and Purge abilities ineffective to heal large groups under pressure - i.e. prevent healing springs, combat prayer to stack. That's how they stay alive b/c they got like 5 people spamming healing springs and another 1 or 2 spamming purge.
3) nerf Earthgore by making it single or duo target.
4) nerf repentence to not heal that many players - it's ridiculously OP since it has essentially the same effect of earthgore, healing large numbers of people to full health in an instant (provided there are enough dead bodies ... but that is usually not an issue when there are ballgroups running around)

Merlight

ChefZero wrote: »

Give keeps 3 flaggs and adjust the placement. Two inner but one ground floor and one upstairs, 3rd one in the outer area. Would make defending against brainless zergs much easier. Think about it

Really like this idea -- two flags right next to each other always seemed dull. Even though it might not change much, I'd like to see this implemented. Maybe put the 3rd flag atop main gate tower.