New 1h enchant nerf better idea..?

Vapirko · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof . As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

Is it an entirely different discussion? What is the reason for this nerf? You and many others are stating that its obvious that DW is far better than staves and 2H because of enchants. You're saying it's obvious by the numbers. Yet if you look at actual gameplay there is no evidence that DW is better than staves and 2H suffers from problems that have nothing to do with enchants. So winky face all you want but you don't sound smart and it seems like you're just using the old "its so obvious" line which has no real basis when you look at in game results.

Tannus15 · January 2019

@Vapirko Sorry, I'm clearly not making my point clear.

The benefits from enchants for DW are stronger than other weapon setups, stam or magicka.
Balance between 2h / DW / staff / bow-bow is a separate issue and would need to be looked at as such.
It would be good if ZoS could make double stacking an enchant on DW gave the same benefits as 2h enchant
This is a nerf, but because I feel the first point is valid I don't mind it.
There will be some initial pain retraiting for the new BiS when this goes live, but ultimately that's beside the point. It's a temporary problem (and yes, I have DW stam dps too)

And lastly some food for thought:
Group dps has increased hugely since this time last year, additional buffs are not good (see CP cap not increasing) so that only leaves nerfs in the near future.
Brace yourselves, this year isn't going to be pretty.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof . As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

Is it an entirely different discussion? What is the reason for this nerf? You and many others are stating that its obvious that DW is far better than staves and 2H because of enchants. You're saying it's obvious by the numbers. Yet if you look at actual gameplay there is no evidence that DW is better than staves and 2H suffers from problems that have nothing to do with enchants. So winky face all you want but you don't sound smart and it seems like you're just using the old "its so obvious" line which has no real basis when you look at in game results.

Seems like a PvP-oriented nerf to me. If this is ZOS's attempt to make 2H more viable in PvE, it's a sad attempt.

Tannus15 · January 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof . As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

Is it an entirely different discussion? What is the reason for this nerf? You and many others are stating that its obvious that DW is far better than staves and 2H because of enchants. You're saying it's obvious by the numbers. Yet if you look at actual gameplay there is no evidence that DW is better than staves and 2H suffers from problems that have nothing to do with enchants. So winky face all you want but you don't sound smart and it seems like you're just using the old "its so obvious" line which has no real basis when you look at in game results.

Seems like a PvP-oriented nerf to me. If this is ZOS's attempt to make 2H more viable in PvE, it's a sad attempt.

I don't think it's aimed at anything in particular, just the way enchants work.
It's future work so that balancing is easier and we don't get that stupid torugs enchant meta that we had after the last update.

Vapirko · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko Sorry, I'm clearly not making my point clear.
The benefits from enchants for DW are stronger than other weapon setups, stam or magicka.

Balance between 2h / DW / staff / bow-bow is a separate issue and would need to be looked at as such.

It would be good if ZoS could make double stacking an enchant on DW gave the same benefits as 2h enchant

This is a nerf, but because I feel the first point is valid I don't mind it.

There will be some initial pain retraiting for the new BiS when this goes live, but ultimately that's beside the point. It's a temporary problem (and yes, I have DW stam dps too)

And lastly some food for thought:
Group dps has increased hugely since this time last year, additional buffs are not good (see CP cap not increasing) so that only leaves nerfs in the near future.
Brace yourselves, this year isn't going to be pretty.

I’m fine with balance passes, and I do see your points and get what you’re saying, but will you convince me that DW was over performing in PvE or PvP? No I’ve not seen any evidence of that and I’ve played almost every class and every weapon setup over the past few years to some extent and never once did I think to myself, “wow DW is the best because of enchants.” It’s not even the DPS loss I’m concerned about. It’s primarily the fact that now stamina absorb enchants are now halved and absorb glyphs are playing a huge part in all specs these days, and we have no option to go for the whole effect. Sure we can proc it off endless hail if we want in PvE but in PvP that’s not option and it is a big loss.

Vapirko · January 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof . As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

Is it an entirely different discussion? What is the reason for this nerf? You and many others are stating that its obvious that DW is far better than staves and 2H because of enchants. You're saying it's obvious by the numbers. Yet if you look at actual gameplay there is no evidence that DW is better than staves and 2H suffers from problems that have nothing to do with enchants. So winky face all you want but you don't sound smart and it seems like you're just using the old "its so obvious" line which has no real basis when you look at in game results.

Seems like a PvP-oriented nerf to me. If this is ZOS's attempt to make 2H more viable in PvE, it's a sad attempt.

It is a very sad attempt because enchants had nothing to do with the issues of 2H and staff users have been at no disadvantage from having 2 vs 3 enchants going.

Wuuffyy · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko Sorry, I'm clearly not making my point clear.
The benefits from enchants for DW are stronger than other weapon setups, stam or magicka.

Balance between 2h / DW / staff / bow-bow is a separate issue and would need to be looked at as such.

It would be good if ZoS could make double stacking an enchant on DW gave the same benefits as 2h enchant

This is a nerf, but because I feel the first point is valid I don't mind it.

There will be some initial pain retraiting for the new BiS when this goes live, but ultimately that's beside the point. It's a temporary problem (and yes, I have DW stam dps too)

And lastly some food for thought:
Group dps has increased hugely since this time last year, additional buffs are not good (see CP cap not increasing) so that only leaves nerfs in the near future.
Brace yourselves, this year isn't going to be pretty.

If #3 happens, I think I'd be okay. Still salty this is brought on my forum warriors but I figured that and then bleeds next so I'm not even surprised. I just know there are some things that if they nerf them in the future w/o providing an alternative THAT PATCH, I'm done. Won't come back at all.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

@Tannus15 speaking truth. All your points are well said and I agree with them. I would go so far as to say that if they just done this, halving dual wield enchants, from the beginning, they could have left all weapon ablitys procing enchantments off cool down, like they were for a bit.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tannus15 , it's not a slight DPS nerf. It's a huge nerf, because enchants don't stack. You can't make a whole enchant out of two halves - they must be different because they share same global cooldown. So basically, DW now conceptually can't do some things 2H can.

You'll still have a full enchant on the bow bar (lets say weapon damage) and then poison & disease on the DW bar for effectively the same damage as 2H

All it really means is you'll need to choose which enchant is the most important for your back bar, probably between absorb stam or weapon damage.

Sure it'll cost you some dps, but not a lot and lets be honest, stam dps could use a slight nerf and this one seems fair.

The only legit complaint I can see is to sword and board enchants, specifically crusher. I think crusher should remain at it's live value on 1h weapons.

Just wanted to circle back on this one, @Tannus15 ...

Why does stam DPS need a "slight nerf"? You see a lot of OP parses on stamplars, stamDKs, or stamsorcs? Or even stamdens for that matter, the "#2" stam DPS spec?

I parse higher on my magblade and magplar than I do on my stamsorc/stamDK/stamplar. And I do it from a safe distance, with a shield, and I can actually take those characters into Trials that were released in the last 2 years.

Stamblades could maybe use a nerf (although I'd rather just see the other specs buffed). Stam in general doesn't need to be nerfed.

Wuuffyy · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof . As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

Is it an entirely different discussion? What is the reason for this nerf? You and many others are stating that its obvious that DW is far better than staves and 2H because of enchants. You're saying it's obvious by the numbers. Yet if you look at actual gameplay there is no evidence that DW is better than staves and 2H suffers from problems that have nothing to do with enchants. So winky face all you want but you don't sound smart and it seems like you're just using the old "its so obvious" line which has no real basis when you look at in game results.

Right. This is my point. It's b/c people whine and get what they want. They don't even need proof or a reason any more, it's fantastic.

They hate bleeds but then oppose a set that basically randomly removes dots. I just don't understand.

"Oh yea this games sucks!"

ANOTHER GUY: "Oh why do you think that?"

"It's just so imbalanced, X Y AND Z is out of control and it hard counters me severely"

ANOTHER GUY: "Didn't they just buff X,Y, AND Z for you or it at least it seems similar?" "Also, you play this game everyday at least 4 hours a day:

"Well... I hate it!"

idk · January 2019

I do not see the OP's suggestion solving anything. It is relative and it means S&B can only have half of a weapon enchant in total.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , you've already been told. The benefit of DW is first and foremost because weapon line is better designed than 2H. Magicka feels amazing with two enchants, and they're also hitting numbers just as high as majority of classes - while having the benefit of range at that. You never replied to that point.

Oh, and now that DW is brought below the level of 2H, brace yourself, now 2H has advantage in AoE (which it had all the time), so now it's time to nerf 2H's AoE as well. It's a closed circle.

Lord_Eomer · January 2019

Nerf was needed for balance,

With the rise of dual wield in PVP, it was outshinning in PVE and PVP.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Nerf was needed for balance,

With the rise of dual wield in PVP, it was outshinning in PVE and PVP.

You're saying it's PvP-driven nerf again? Well... I'm not really surprised. As always, PvP generates nerfs for PvE.

Wuuffyy · January 2019

It's either both or pve only. Just like your precious shields.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

It's either both or pve only. Just like your precious shields.

On the main page of ZOS site, shield nerf was sold as "...counterplay against shields", they only started making excuses about making healers feel needed later in talks with reps. (And, surprise, healers still don't feel needed.)

Jeezye · January 2019

I smell ... PVE scrubs :P DW and s/b enchats were overperforming for a long time, providing double the enchant amount than their peers do. Just adapt and move along, change totally makes sense and won't break anything currently existing.

yes, armor debuff glyph for tanks will be slightly lower, and dw users loose 50% damage from glyphs, so what? won't be a big deal and prevents inequalities and outrageous build like dw torugs.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Jeezye , you didn't bother reading anything from the above, didn't you now. And you don't know how enchants work to begin with. Please take your time reading then, everyone will wait. (Short version: enchantments of same type don't stack, so now 2H has enchantment setups that cannot be replicated on DW in principle, which makes DW less flexible in addition to being nerfed in damage.)

Jeezye · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeezye , you didn't bother reading anything from the above, didn't you now. And you don't know how enchants work to begin with. Please take your time reading then, everyone will wait. (Short version: enchantments of same type don't stack, so now 2H has enchantment setups that cannot be replicated on DW in principle, which makes DW less flexible in addition to being nerfed in damage.)

I actually totally got that

Still don't see the issue, you can still run wep enchant on bow and poison+desease on dw. Btw, you can also just run double damage poison on dw if you think its gonna hurt that bad (though im not too sure about the dps parse)

John_Falstaff · January 2019

Jeezye wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeezye , you didn't bother reading anything from the above, didn't you now. And you don't know how enchants work to begin with. Please take your time reading then, everyone will wait. (Short version: enchantments of same type don't stack, so now 2H has enchantment setups that cannot be replicated on DW in principle, which makes DW less flexible in addition to being nerfed in damage.)

I actually totally got that Still don't see the issue, you can still run wep enchant on bow and poison+desease on dw. Btw, you can also just run double damage poison on dw if you think its gonna hurt that bad (though im not too sure about the dps parse)

Nope, you didn't. Most builds (non-redguards for sure) can't afford weapon enchant on bow, that'd be a hit of close to 400 regen (sic!) - even on live, placing absorb anywhere but bow cuts it by 25-35%. Absorb stamina is all but necessary, and now it can only be put on a bow to keep sustain.

Jeezye · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Jeezye , you didn't bother reading anything from the above, didn't you now. And you don't know how enchants work to begin with. Please take your time reading then, everyone will wait. (Short version: enchantments of same type don't stack, so now 2H has enchantment setups that cannot be replicated on DW in principle, which makes DW less flexible in addition to being nerfed in damage.)

I actually totally got that Still don't see the issue, you can still run wep enchant on bow and poison+desease on dw. Btw, you can also just run double damage poison on dw if you think its gonna hurt that bad (though im not too sure about the dps parse)

Nope, you didn't. Most builds (non-redguards for sure) can't afford weapon enchant on bow, that'd be a hit of close to 400 regen (sic!) - even on live, placing absorb anywhere but bow cuts it by 25-35%. Absorb stamina is all but necessary, and now it can only be put on a bow to keep sustain.

Ok didn't realize absorb stamina is that important in endgame pve. same thing still, there's more than enough ways to adapt to that issue, though you'll likely lose some dps along the way.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Jeezye , it's all about how little the role of sustain is emphasized; people often don't suspect how sustain translates into gain or loss of damage. That's why redguard is meta for stamina damage on live. It goes as far as the forum talks of the kind "help, I can't sustain this rotation - of course it's easy to sustain, look at my parse - wait, you're playing redguard - sure, don't you? everybody plays redguard..." Sustain is that important.

Sure, people will adopt, but the issue is, it's not just damage loss, it's flexibility. The closest crutch now to get sustain and weapon damage (to invest into AoE - something 2H and staff does simply by swapping enchants) is to retrait main hand to nirnhoned. Hello grind for transmute crystals (and since most want to have an option to swap between AoE and single target, also grind for that spare AY dagger).

kalimar44 · January 2019

Why do classes have to be equal??? So what if my dw/bow with my enchants are better than you, get over it.

Tannus15 · January 2019

@LiquidPony I'll definitely walk back that statement, especially in the context of vAS and vCR. Stam builds are either limited to 2 melee at most and not at all in progression groups. In my guilds at least I'm still seeing higher stam parses than magicka parses, especially from stamblades and stamdens, but that might just be the people I'm playing with.

It's my opinion that stam has been leaning hard on relequen since summerset was released. Any fight where stam have to switch targets and the drop off is harsh. If relequen wasn't in the game then stam builds would be far behind where they should be.

That said I'm sticking to my "stam vs magicka" is a different discussion however, especially once it becomes "stam vs mini trials" because I really think it's getting too far away from the point of this topic which is just talking about the changes to enchantments and DW.

@John_Falstaff Correct me if I'm wrong, but before last update no one ran absorb stam enchant for sustain. It was too much a dps loss. It's only after they changed it from mag damage to phys damage that it because common to run it on the bow.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , absorb stamina wasn't meta up until next patch, yes; doesn't mean, though, that everyone had easy time sustaining - not since Morrowind. I know what you're trying to say - people were sustaining before, and they did: heavy attack rotations, having to run regen food, and of course first and foremost being redguards to stay viable. The overwhelming redguard meta didn't hold for no reason, not being one is a hefty self-nerf, and if absorb wasn't buffed (and couldn't be placed on infused bow after tweaks in Wolfhunter), then I'd have hazarded a guess that after DW nerf, redguards (and maybe bosmer) would have been absolute meta. Otherwise you struggled to sustain light attack rotation without tradeoffs.

karios525 · January 2019

As a tank nerfing crushes and weakening enchants will make a dps job harder as they will take more damage and get less pen from my enchants. How about a new sword and board passive so tank a don't get their enchants nerfed. I agree with nerfing dual wield as it is the next step toward levelling the playing field with 2 handed but 2 handed skills still need a proper rework

Letho2469 · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

[...]lets be honest, stam dps could use a slight nerf and this one seems fair.

Please do not make such posts if u have obviously NEVER seen an endgame hardmode trial before. Stamina is next to unviable in all mechanic or movement heavy encounters. They do 1-2k dps more on the target dummy - and lose 10k in trials compared to ranged dps.

This change, while being understandable and good for itself, is just another nail to the coffin, if dual wielders don't get compensation for it!

karios525 · January 2019

@Letho2469 I agree best way to ensure 2 handed enchants are stronger keep the enchant nerfs to dual only but give a significant buff to infused to compensate

Colecovision · January 2019

nvm, it was covered

Rittings · April 2019

Half the backhand weapons, keep the front hand at full strength. Far better option. You've nerfed the dps and ability of sword n board guys - who already had a major disadvantage... wow... crazy nerf.