New 1h enchant nerf better idea..?

Mettaricana · January 2019

How about instead of cutting the 1 hand enchant strength in half we keep the full strength and double the 2h enchant strength to make up for the lack of an enchant slot. Rather than make sword n board and dual wielders weaker.. by killing our enchants.

Tannus15 · January 2019

Mettaricana wrote: »

How about instead of cutting the 1 hand enchant strength in half we keep the full strength and double the 2h enchant strength to make up for the lack of an enchant slot. Rather than make sword n board and dual wielders weaker.. by killing our enchants.

what's the difference?
It's a slight dps nerf. DW will still be fine.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , it's not a slight DPS nerf. It's a huge nerf, because enchants don't stack. You can't make a whole enchant out of two halves - they must be different because they share same global cooldown. So basically, DW now conceptually can't do some things 2H can.

Red_Feather · January 2019

I am worried how this affects my damage shield enchantment on my sword.

Perhaps different types of enchants should be balanced differently?

Tannus15 · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tannus15 , it's not a slight DPS nerf. It's a huge nerf, because enchants don't stack. You can't make a whole enchant out of two halves - they must be different because they share same global cooldown. So basically, DW now conceptually can't do some things 2H can.

You'll still have a full enchant on the bow bar (lets say weapon damage) and then poison & disease on the DW bar for effectively the same damage as 2H

All it really means is you'll need to choose which enchant is the most important for your back bar, probably between absorb stam or weapon damage.

Sure it'll cost you some dps, but not a lot and lets be honest, stam dps could use a slight nerf and this one seems fair.

The only legit complaint I can see is to sword and board enchants, specifically crusher. I think crusher should remain at it's live value on 1h weapons.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , you're forgetting that most stamina builds sustain now using absorb stamina. And you have to have full absorb stamina to get normal sustain; putting it on bow bar is half-measure because that, for one, halves your weapon damage enchant (and no, you can't compensate by poison on the other hand because it's also halved and it's single target only - so again, no flexibility in choice between weapon damage and the single target instant damage 2H/bow/staff has). So no, it's not only about DPS, it's about both DPS, sustain, and flexibility of builds. Sure you can make things work - invent crutches and workarounds all you want, but it doesn't make DW any more comparable to 2H in what it can do. It's not balance; it's nerfing DW below level of 2H.

killmove · January 2019

No this wont change anything for DW except maybe 1 or 2% less dmg,
This will however make 2h builds more viable now

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@killmove , you simply don't know a thing about how enchantments work, then, if you think that's so. And 2H won't be viable because it has deeply rooted issues with skill line - but of course, to fix the skill line, one actually has to, well, work.

Royaji · January 2019

killmove wrote: »

No this wont change anything for DW except maybe 1 or 2% less dmg,
This will however make 2h builds more viable now

Nice logic. You claim that:

1) dual wield will stay at the same strength
2) two-hander will become viable (despite no changes coming to two-handed directly)

You should make up your mind.

Brrrofski · January 2019

It's more of a nerfs to tanks in PvE and sword and shield users in PvP than pve dps imo.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2019

I don't think that people will change to 2h now. It's more likely that they'll just change to magicka I think.

killmove · January 2019

I actually suggested this change for better balance with 2H weapons ^^

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/452497/the-dual-wielding-meta-problem#latest

As I said this is small 1, 2% dmg decrease so no need to cry

Royaji · January 2019

killmove wrote: »

I actually suggested this change for better balance with 2H weapons ^^

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/452497/the-dual-wielding-meta-problem#latest

As I said this is small 1, 2% dmg decrease so no to cry

You're quite a joke, are you?

Tannus15 · January 2019

@John_Falstaff I'm not forgetting about how DW currently uses enchantments. In fact, I'll quote myself.

All it really means is you'll need to choose which enchant is the most important for your back bar, probably between absorb stam or weapon damage.

So now instead of DW getting everything, they need to choose between full damage on the weapon enchantment or full stamina absorb, while still getting half the benefits of the other enchant.

This is a smart nerf to DW which forces DW users to make a choice about what is the most important aspect of their build, without gutting it completely.

Two thumbs up from me.

Vapirko · January 2019

Yeah I’m sorry but screw all the people who whined for this. I can’t beleive ZOS actually listened. Now we have no option to try and get the full effect of one enchant if we want it. And this isn’t going to make 2H a more viable DPS option nor is it the way to balance this. It’s amazing that they listen to people who have zero idea what they’re talking about.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , you still don't understand, don't you?

Imagine that you want to prefer AoE damage (hence weapon damage enchant) and full sustain. How do you do that on double inferno staves? You put absorb magicka on the back, weapon damage on the front.

How do you do that on DW after this patch? The answer is: you can't. You simply can't combine two halved weapon power glyphs into one full-strength, so if you only want to keep full sustain, congratulations, you'll have just lost the choice between AoE and single target (which you can do on 2H or staff), you simply have to put different glyphs on two hands. It's a hideously braindead nerf, it only looks smart to those who don't understand how enchantments work.

Nicalas · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tannus15 , you still don't understand, don't you?

Imagine that you want to prefer AoE damage (hence weapon damage enchant) and full sustain. How do you do that on double inferno staves? You put absorb magicka on the back, weapon damage on the front.

How do you do that on DW after this patch? The answer is: you can't. You simply can't combine two halved weapon power glyphs into one full-strength, so if you only want to keep full sustain, congratulations, you'll have just lost the choice between AoE and single target (which you can do on 2H or staff), you simply have to put different glyphs on two hands. It's a hideously braindead nerf, it only looks smart to those who don't understand how enchantments work.

I agree with you. This is a nerf that just creates another issue. It takes 1 Light attack to proc a 2H enchant at full strength. It take 2 Light attacks to proc both dual wield enchants at half strength each. We also cannot stack the same enchants to achieve the same power levels as a 2H. 2H procs stronger and quicker than dual wield. It's the same old ZOS. Nerf something for the sake of balance and create yourself a new problem.

Tannus15 · January 2019

@John_Falstaff
Yes, I do understand. There is now a small draw back to DW, so you don't get a full single target enchantment AND a full AOE enchantment AND a full sustain enchantment all the time.

Now you can have a full AOE enchantment AND 0.5 sustain AND 0.5 single target OR a full sustain enchantment AND 0.5 AOE AND 0.5 single target.

I understand perfectly how those enchantments work, which is why i've been calling it a nerf. I've been clear on this from the start. But I think it's a good way to nerf DW, it still allows DW users to optimise for what is important to their build, in the same way 2h / staff users do. You can't have flame, spell damage and absorb magicka. You have to choose. Now DW still get everything, but they have to pick which is the most important.

Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't understand how the game works.

The reason I don't agree with the OP is that for the past 12 months everything seems to be increasing the group dps, and doubling the enchantment values on 2h / staff / bow would be crazy strong. Adding it to the 2h passives I could maybe get behind, but honestly I think a small nerf to DW is a better approach.

Jhalin · January 2019

It’s a *** change all around

2H is still not viable and now DW is literally incapable of achieving two full strength enchantments.

But ZOS always tries to makes thing appear better “by comparison” when things only got weaker.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Tannus15 , okay, if you understand how enchantments work, then go ahead, tell me how to replicate the following from 2H: full sustain on bow bar, full AoE on front bar. Replicate it on DW after the patch, go ahead. You can do that on staff, you can do that on 2H - show me how to do the same on DW.

You've just lost flexibility. You can't optimize a build anymore because if you have to have your sustain (and many builds can't do without it - even putting sustain on front seriously cuts its effectiveness because only Cloak can proc it on back bar, and it's too little with 3s ticks), then you have to put it on back bar, and then you have two halves of enchants on the front and this is the moment when you don't have the choice between AoE and single target. The end. 2H has that flexibility - but DW can't optimize anything anymore, it's locked by having two non-stackable halves of enchants.

And no, 2H didn't just spring to relevance, because skill line is bad, and it simply needs rework instead of having competitor nerfed. If they wanted to nerf DW enchants right way, they would have kept only main hand enchant active - that would leave DW precisely on par with 2H (same ability to mix and match without losing out on anything), and it wouldn't nerf sword and shield.

killmove · January 2019

This is a good change imao

Jhalin · January 2019

killmove wrote: »

This is a good change imao

Your opinion is objectively wrong

No one gets any benefit from this change. Absolutely no one.

Bowser · January 2019

Tannus15 wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

How about instead of cutting the 1 hand enchant strength in half we keep the full strength and double the 2h enchant strength to make up for the lack of an enchant slot. Rather than make sword n board and dual wielders weaker.. by killing our enchants.

what's the difference?
It's a slight dps nerf. DW will still be fine.

Its also a tank nerf, because we use 1h weapons.

kalimar44 · January 2019

I keep asking myself why do I keep playing this game. I'm getting sick and tired of all the nerfs!!!! This game was way better 3 years ago.

LiquidPony · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Tannus15 , okay, if you understand how enchantments work, then go ahead, tell me how to replicate the following from 2H: full sustain on bow bar, full AoE on front bar. Replicate it on DW after the patch, go ahead. You can do that on staff, you can do that on 2H - show me how to do the same on DW.

You've just lost flexibility. You can't optimize a build anymore because if you have to have your sustain (and many builds can't do without it - even putting sustain on front seriously cuts its effectiveness because only Cloak can proc it on back bar, and it's too little with 3s ticks), then you have to put it on back bar, and then you have two halves of enchants on the front and this is the moment when you don't have the choice between AoE and single target. The end. 2H has that flexibility - but DW can't optimize anything anymore, it's locked by having two non-stackable halves of enchants.

And no, 2H didn't just spring to relevance, because skill line is bad, and it simply needs rework instead of having competitor nerfed. If they wanted to nerf DW enchants right way, they would have kept only main hand enchant active - that would leave DW precisely on par with 2H (same ability to mix and match without losing out on anything), and it wouldn't nerf sword and shield.

I agree that it's a silly nerf, because it doesn't do anything to really make 2H more viable in PvE (if we want that, we need more powerful 2H lights, faster 2H heavies, and a 2H weapon that gives a weapon critical bonus).

But I think the solution for full sustain on bow bar and full AoE on front bar is just to go back to what we did in the past: Absorb Stamina on bow, Nirn mainhand with Poison, Infused offhand with Berserker.

So there goes another like 600 transmute crystals to trait-change all of my DW weapons.

Wuuffyy · January 2019

Doubling 2h sounds alot better than nerfing one handed on top of all the racial nerfs that affect everyone and on top of that no cp.

Tannus15 · January 2019

@LiquidPony You've summed up what I was thinking as the best setup, which isn't a huge deal, what 1 transmute per stam dps?

I also agree that 2h needs reworking to be more viable in PvE, though honestly it's not as bad as people think and this *does* help close the gap.

@Bowser this I agree with completely. I think they should pick a sword and shield passive and add double enchantment value OR make crusher unaffected by this change.

@John_Falstaff The point is that right now DW doesn't make any decisions, they just get everything all the time. You didn't need to choose one or the other, you just got all 3 enchants at full value. This is clearly over performing vs every other setup in the game.
I would be all for some sort of implementation of "double stacking" enchants on DW for full value if ZoS can make this work.

usmcjdking · January 2019

Doubling two-handed weapons would be a notoriously terrible idea.

Vapirko · January 2019

Im curious to know if this halves the damage boost of spell/wpn damage, I assume yes but curious got get on PTS and see. But on the other hand you can still get major defile or whatever. This bothers me most because of how the stamina absorb enchants just started to slightly make up for the terrible sustain. Im hoping stam/mag return can still function at full strength even if the damage is halved.

Tannus15 wrote: »

@LiquidPony You've summed up what I was thinking as the best setup, which isn't a huge deal, what 1 transmute per stam dps?

I also agree that 2h needs reworking to be more viable in PvE, though honestly it's not as bad as people think and this *does* help close the gap.

@Bowser this I agree with completely. I think they should pick a sword and shield passive and add double enchantment value OR make crusher unaffected by this change.

@John_Falstaff The point is that right now DW doesn't make any decisions, they just get everything all the time. You didn't need to choose one or the other, you just got all 3 enchants at full value. This is clearly over performing vs every other setup in the game.
I would be all for some sort of implementation of "double stacking" enchants on DW for full value if ZoS can make this work.

Clearly over performing? How so? Can you provide some evidence? Because last time I checked magicka DPS are doing just fine and the reason 2H isn't viable is not because of enchants. This is now an indirect buff to magicka DPS. Not to mention axe bleeds have also been nerfed so that will be somewhat of a DPS loss. Swords were buffed by a whole 1% to make up for that which seems like crap.

Tannus15 · January 2019

@Vapirko 3 full value enchants vs 2 full value enchants with no draw back looks like a fairly obvious advantage to me. 3 > 2 isn't the most complicated mathematical proof

. As I stated above it would be better if double slotting an enchantment could give the value as a 2h weapon, but it's pretty obvious why they have made the change they made.

I'm pretty sure the PvE dps meta is dual daggers, so the axe bleed nerf will be largely unnoticed. The sword buff isn't going to change anyone's mind about them being sub par either.

I'm going to side step the stamina vs magicka debate however as I think that's an entirely different discussion and will only muddy the waters on this one, very specific change.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Im curious to know if this halves the damage boost of spell/wpn damage, I assume yes but curious got get on PTS and see. But on the other hand you can still get major defile or whatever. This bothers me most because of how the stamina absorb enchants just started to slightly make up for the terrible sustain. Im hoping stam/mag return can still function at full strength even if the damage is halved.

Tannus15 wrote: »

@LiquidPony You've summed up what I was thinking as the best setup, which isn't a huge deal, what 1 transmute per stam dps?

I also agree that 2h needs reworking to be more viable in PvE, though honestly it's not as bad as people think and this *does* help close the gap.

@Bowser this I agree with completely. I think they should pick a sword and shield passive and add double enchantment value OR make crusher unaffected by this change.

@John_Falstaff The point is that right now DW doesn't make any decisions, they just get everything all the time. You didn't need to choose one or the other, you just got all 3 enchants at full value. This is clearly over performing vs every other setup in the game.
I would be all for some sort of implementation of "double stacking" enchants on DW for full value if ZoS can make this work.

Clearly over performing? How so? Can you provide some evidence? Because last time I checked magicka DPS are doing just fine and the reason 2H isn't viable is not because of enchants. This is now an indirect buff to magicka DPS. Not to mention axe bleeds have also been nerfed so that will be somewhat of a DPS loss. Swords were buffed by a whole 1% to make up for that which seems like crap.

Yes, it does cut the value of Berserker in half.

Tested on a few classes, it's +226, uptime is around 80%-ish running it on an Infused DW weapon, which makes it 180.8 total value, or, less WD than Nirnhoned.

Tannus15 wrote: »

@LiquidPony You've summed up what I was thinking as the best setup, which isn't a huge deal, what 1 transmute per stam dps?

I also agree that 2h needs reworking to be more viable in PvE, though honestly it's not as bad as people think and this *does* help close the gap.

@Bowser this I agree with completely. I think they should pick a sword and shield passive and add double enchantment value OR make crusher unaffected by this change.

@John_Falstaff The point is that right now DW doesn't make any decisions, they just get everything all the time. You didn't need to choose one or the other, you just got all 3 enchants at full value. This is clearly over performing vs every other setup in the game.
I would be all for some sort of implementation of "double stacking" enchants on DW for full value if ZoS can make this work.

@Tannus15 I mean in the minimal case it would be 1 Transmute per stam DPS. But for me, and a lot of other people I'm sure, it's like 3-4 per stam DPS depending on how many setups they have (like for me I have my main AY setup, my Prismatic AY setup, a Briarheart setup, and a Maelstrom setup just on my stamden ... similar options on my stamplar, stamblade, and stamsorc). And that's just assuming we're going back to Nirn + Infused, which may or may not be the case.

It's also a *huge* DPS loss for Prismatic fights.