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It's Official. No Champion Point increase next Update. Thank you Rich for listening!

  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    Tigerseye wrote: »
    Sendrik wrote: »
    I dont like this new trend,where apparantly,every mmoRPG has to be a moba without real character progression,please dont make this become a second guild wars 2
    Having next to no character progression was one of the reasons i left,it was simply a online dress up game.
    Even wow adjusted stats for pvp,up to the point where they dont give a huge stat boost anymore.

    There are already non-cp bg,s and campaigns,i hope they are not making the game too casual friendly by removing the whole cp system and replacing it with,,non combat perks''.
    Its a mmorpg afterall,and a important core aspect of those,is to become stronger over time and it wasnt a issue in the past.
    But over the last few years it suddenly became a bad thing for some reason,it looks like people forgot what it means to put time and effort into a mmo,or they got spoiled by the latest moba wave and gw2.
    What comes next?
    Giving everyone the same gear sets for pvp?
    Handing out the same kind of potions to everyone who joins a bg and not allow him to use others so its,,balanced''?
    This is absolute nonsense,the grind for power is a important part of mmorpg tradition and there are already less and less games who have it.
    Seems,people like me are running out of games to play because today,the majority of people who play mmo,s consist of casuals who dont want to invest time into their hobby and think everything should be handed to them on a silver plate,they dont know the joy of FINALLY getting a very rare item you worked very hard for,or finally unlocking that amazing skill that motivated you to lvl up for a long time or whatever the game in question has to offer for the playerbase to unlock.
    Looking forward to the negative,,critic''of triggered casuals....
    Really,i dont have a problem with them under normal circumstances,but they ruin gaming for the people who are really passionate about it,ive seen it happen in too many games already and thats also why im allergic to threads like this.

    They tried making a game, exclusively, for people like you.

    That game (predictably) died.

    Clearly, that is just not what most people want.

    What game are you referring to? WoW has progression. FFXIV has progression. Both are more popular than GW2. So is ESO. None are dead yet despite pronouncements to the contrary. ESO seems to be on the ascension rather than a decline (and that's with the current progression system).
    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 19, 2019 10:29AM
  • Tigerseye
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »

    What game are you referring to? WoW has progression. FFXIV has progression. Both are more popular than GW2. So is ESO. Neither are dead yet despite pronouncements to the contrary. ESO seems to be on the ascension rather than a decline (and that's with the current progression system).

    Wildstar.

    It was made especially for the super-hardcore crowd.

    All the (apparently) hardcore people on the EU WoW forums, who kept saying they despised casuals and always tried to make out they were the majority of WoW players (when they really weren't), were very excited about it.

    Many said they were going to leave WoW to play it, because WoW wasn't hardcore enough for them, anymore, because it "pandered to casuals" with things like LFR.

    It died.

    GW2, on the other hand, was made for casuals, primarily.

    Many things are wrong with it, especially now, but most people there seemed to like the fact that it wasn't a neverending char/gear progression treadmill, at max level.

    It's now faltering, for other reasons, but it's still alive.

  • Tigerseye
    Tigerseye
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    Neoicelord wrote: »

    i play the game to get achievement points, to power level my character and constantly make my toon more powerful.

    i do NOT play mmorpgs to have a story of any kind (i will ignore it) or lore of any kind (again, i will ignore it) i played WoW for 10 years and not once did i watch any cutscenes or read any quests, i was there to get loot, get achievements, make alts and play the lovely AUCTION HOUSE to make gold.

    ESO gives me nothing and i in turn will not give them anything (money)

    God, what a bleak, grey world you must live in.

    I'm not a massive lore fanatic, by any means, but I would never play a game like a calculator, just adding endless, empty numbers for no apparent reason.

    You are like the accountant of gamers.

    Maybe that should be a new class? lol.

    The Accountant - exists purely to suck all the joy out of his world and yours, if you let him.
    Edited by Tigerseye on January 19, 2019 11:05AM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

    I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

    You got a pretty shallow definition of what unique and powerfull means. No they are not unique. All classes got repeatedly nerfed to compensate for the power u gain through cp and gear. They are shadows of theirselves at this point.

    Please describe to me a non-shallow definition of what unique and powerful mean. How, specifically, does nerfing classes/races make them less unique? Are they less unique because they no longer have an advantage over another class? If so, what's the difference between "uniqueness" and class imbalance? How did nerfing classes make them less unique if all the classes were nerfed? If all the classes were nerfed, how does that make them less powerful relative to the other classes? Were they nerfed unequally? Do you equate power to seeing bigger numbers on your screen, or is power related to your effectiveness against other classes? Do you define uniqueness as differences in numbers on your screen or a difference in class skills?

    Thank you in advance for your answers. I'm looking forward to being informed about uniqueness and power in a less shallow way.

    They are less unique because their power comes from the gear and cp instead of the class itself. Take sustain for example. Classes should get their sustain from powerful class sustain mechanics that make each class unique and powerful in their own way. But over the years all class sustain tools got butchered to compensate for sustain u get through cp and gear. They no longer make classes feel unique, powerful and giving the classes identity cause simply put they are not strong enough. It doesn't even matter if u use half of them.

    Same applies for other class abilities as well. Repentance, purge, bol, shards, wings, battle roar, helping hands, siphoning, funnel health, frags, streak, ward etc. They were once the backbone of the classes that made them feel unique, powerful and gave them identity. Now they are all just random abilities cause simply put, the backbone of each class now is the gear they are using and their cp.
  • josh.lackey_ESO
    josh.lackey_ESO
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    They bottom-weighted all the CP nodes and implemented catchup system a while ago. Raising the cap actually makes it easier for new players to reach a viable number of CP. Refusing to raise the CP cap is not merely pointless, but actually harmful to new players. Adding 30 more CP is less than a 2% benefit.

    Most builds stop at 56 points in a node, because the diminishing returns become extreme. The difference between 56 and 100 is only 3%. (56 = 12%, 100 = 15%)

    Adding more CP has not caused power creep since the nodes were bottom weighted. If they want to reduce power creep, they should flatten the curves on the nodes. If that's too punishing to new players, then boost the catchup gains.

    Rasing the cap helps new players catch up. 400 or 500 CP is viable, and the higher the cap, the less XP it takes to reach 400 CP. A higher cap is a good thing for new players.

    Everyone screeching for a CP cap freeze doesn't understand the system. And in typical fashion, they listens to the loudest group people who don't know what they're talking about.
    Edited by josh.lackey_ESO on January 19, 2019 1:02PM
  • GreenhaloX
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    I disagree.. but it doesn't matter. Whatever you all call power creeping is character progression. This game since the beginning with all the nerfing are all to justify PvP balance; however, for PvE, it is character oppression. Toons have been shriveled with every damn DLC and updates. If this is the likes of what all MMO are, well then, screw it for me. Only timeframe I actually really enjoy the game was prior to one Tamriel when my stamDK was smashing a single Wrecking Blow of 30-40k without buff from other combos or skills. I, for one, enjoy having powerful toons or character or whatever you want to call it. I enjoy the challenge of soloing world bosses and the likes of vet level dungeons and not always needing 3 or more to decimate a world boss or something. Whatever, I'm not the developers of the game.
  • Tetrafy
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    I disagree make harder content, and perhaps raise health pools on trash etc. What you are doing will ruin this game. They are only doung anything because players like you post daily about "power creep is ruining eso" Yea lets all play non cp the most populated pvp playlist in the game.(lol)
    Edited by Tetrafy on January 19, 2019 1:04PM
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

    I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

    You got a pretty shallow definition of what unique and powerfull means. No they are not unique. All classes got repeatedly nerfed to compensate for the power u gain through cp and gear. They are shadows of theirselves at this point.

    Please describe to me a non-shallow definition of what unique and powerful mean. How, specifically, does nerfing classes/races make them less unique? Are they less unique because they no longer have an advantage over another class? If so, what's the difference between "uniqueness" and class imbalance? How did nerfing classes make them less unique if all the classes were nerfed? If all the classes were nerfed, how does that make them less powerful relative to the other classes? Were they nerfed unequally? Do you equate power to seeing bigger numbers on your screen, or is power related to your effectiveness against other classes? Do you define uniqueness as differences in numbers on your screen or a difference in class skills?

    Thank you in advance for your answers. I'm looking forward to being informed about uniqueness and power in a less shallow way.

    They are less unique because their power comes from the gear and cp instead of the class itself. Take sustain for example. Classes should get their sustain from powerful class sustain mechanics that make each class unique and powerful in their own way. But over the years all class sustain tools got butchered to compensate for sustain u get through cp and gear. They no longer make classes feel unique, powerful and giving the classes identity cause simply put they are not strong enough. It doesn't even matter if u use half of them.

    Same applies for other class abilities as well. Repentance, purge, bol, shards, wings, battle roar, helping hands, siphoning, funnel health, frags, streak, ward etc. They were once the backbone of the classes that made them feel unique, powerful and gave them identity. Now they are all just random abilities cause simply put, the backbone of each class now is the gear they are using and their cp.

    So, would a re-worked progression system that boosted specific skills in each class meet your needs?

    I'll just chalk it up to us wanting different things from the game, but none of what you talked about really matters to me. Maybe it's because I only play two classes so far. Maybe it's because I only care about my power as it relates to whatever enemy I'm fighting. Maybe it's because I don't min/max. Maybe it's because I don't PVP. Maybe it's because being the "best" is not important to me. Maybe it's because I'm not a numbers person. Maybe it's because I don't use guides. Maybe it's because I'm in no rush to get to max CP. Maybe it's because the fantasy is more important to me than the numbers. Maybe it's because I turn off combat numbers and the ONLY time I look at my combat metrics is when someone complains about "not enough DPS" in a dungeon. (Almost always I'm doing the most DPS and it's either the other DPS lacking or someone being a jerk because we didn't burn a boss down fast enough for them).

    Shallow or not, the only thing that matters to me in the uniqueness category is that the classes play differently. My sorc is a burner. I get the job done quick to minimize the damage done to me. My AOEs are pretty much instant and dropped in the middle of a group to do the most damage. My warden's damage is slower. I play with a mix of dps and healing. My AOE is delayed and I have to line it up for it to hit as many targets as possible. Obviously not the extent of my game play, just a quick example of how I differentiate my characters.

    I'm not a role player in the sense that I stand in the middle of town talking to other players with an elaborate backstory, but I do create my characters with a theme. I chose my skills and armor more based on that theme than on how strong they will be compared to other players or at end game.

    I don't envy ZOS in trying to meet the needs of people with so many ideas of what the game should be. I want it to be a certain way and I'll keep fighting for it. I'm trying hard to remember that others play style is only different than me, not necessarily better or worse. I wish we all would.
    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 19, 2019 1:33PM
  • GreenhaloX
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    So the extra champion points I have are for nothing? That's disappointing.

    How about letting the extra points go towards a discount for champion point respeccing or something. Or maybe redoing the trees entirely to accommodate higher champion point totals?

    Yeah.. if it does come to no more CP increase with DLC and updates, then, that is pretty much it for me. One of the main reasons I'm still in this game all these years are doing stuff like repeated dailies and whatever to increase the CP and then get the 30 extra CPs with every new DLC and chapter. I enjoy getting the extra 30s to increase the constellation, and getting the increase is what I await to get. Well, no use to continue playing the game really, if the CP cap is no longer increasing. It's bad enough all the crapshoots that come with each DLC and chapters and having to wait weeks or months later for fixes and patches. Now, if no more CP increases, then f that for this game.

    Sure, it's an MMO and you're suppose to do things in group, but I enjoy playing this game more sololy. I really don't enjoy trials at all, and majority of the trial gears aren't all that. I enjoy the challenge of going into the likes of world bosses (even the Summerset ones) and dungeons sololy. It's more challenging that way and spices up the game for me. However, it does get harder and harder soloing so with each DLC and updates when toons are continuously being nerfed and shriveled. Sure, it somehow likely benefit the balance for PvP, but not for PvE. I dislike doing world bosses with multi-players and just decimate the boss within a couple minutes. With each new CP increase, it helps make my toons stronger, so as to be able to solo contents a bit better.
  • Tetrafy
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    Why dont they just require high cp kevel requirements for high level content? That way it pushes people to continue to raise cp and it makes content harder for those at end game. Every other game does it ie ffxiv wow etc. Put a requirement on harder content a 300 cp tank isnt going to help us on vet raid content anyways.
    Edited by Tetrafy on January 19, 2019 1:30PM
  • Nebthet78
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    LiquidPony wrote: »

    Because ZOS will absolutely, 100%, unequivocally never put am arbitrary hard cap on DPS. It's a terrible idea, it makes no sense, and it'll never happen. If it does, I will give you all of my stuff and delete my account. Maybe on the same day all schools in the world will just start automatically giving everyone C's regardless of their actual performance, all jobs in the world will start paying everyone $20 an hour regardless of their responsibility, and monkeys will fly out of my butthole.

    Again, you are not going to change my mind. I know rather well how things work in this game. I don't care what you call them.

    Rotations like that do infact contain animation cancelling, no matter what you say, unless you are allowing for half a second between each skill before your light attack... which is the issue a lot of people have with animation canceling.. once their internet latency reaches a certain amount.. mine is 133 latency in game, I can no longer animation cancel. My light attack will not fire reliably without a pause.

    I tested this issue by running trials and on AAHM.... where stam dps stand inside each other... my movements matched the other StamDPS... only difference between me and them.... my light attacks were not firing off when they should have within the rotations. As the latency got worse, the longer the pauses or inability to fire light attacks at the right time happened when weaving between skills while trying to cancel the animation. At the end of that fight, I had at least a 10k difference in DPS from the other player, AND because I couldn't animation cancel to get off more light attacks quickly, Sunderflame's proc was only at 30% uptime.

    Animation Cancelling is an issue with this game that ZOS has been unable to fix. It is inbedded into the code of this game. Putting a cap on the DPS will help to mitigate the DPS differential from Animation Cancelling. It will lower the celing without gutting the middle ground players.

    With all the other changes in the last 2 years that ZOS has done to nerf players damage and regeneration because of the DPS creep, they have proven that there really isn't any other way to lower the ceiling in this game without hurting other players play styles. I'd rather sacrifice the 1% top tier player base to for the betterment of the 30+% middle tiered players, and the rest of the lower tiered players whom are sick and tired of being nerfed over and over again because players in guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged can race through content and find it too easy.

    So, I'm going to say this again.... you aren't going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change your's. My idea is now out there for consideration and it is possible it may be something they are looking at. They may even try it before they completely give up on CP to see what happens and how things play out in the game.

    But I'm now putting you on Ignore. I had my say. I don't care if you agree or not. You seem to have to have the last say in everything don't you. I notice it in all the threads to participate in. Bye Bye now.
    Far too many characters to list any more.
  • parpin
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    thanks god, i only have one character and i am currently 689cp, i was thinking by the time i hit 810, the cp will increase again with next chapter, and for some one like me it will be never ending cp grind, now i can finally hit max level.
  • Emmagoldman
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    evoniee wrote: »
    shieeeet, now it is harder to kill bad player on cyrodiil if cp is removed :lol:

    Actually its the opposite. Crutch Points pad a bad build and make it sustainable. Anyone can make a perma-heal bot or a near unkillable tank that can spam three skills. That nonsense doesn't fly as well in battlegrounds.

    Completely agree

    The quality of pvp is way higher in non cp then cp. Cp allows for huge sustain, tanky and have high damage.

    Im ok with a combination of any two: damage and sustain, sustain and tanky, but being able to serve all roles in one is horrible game play

    Instepped into a cp campaign for the furst time in a year and a half and the gameplay is just dumb. 10 people beating on a player and chasing them, not worth our time. Stuck in a 2 v 2 in a tower for 10 mins, this is dumb, walk away.

    Im excited overall
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Good about no changes for the foreseeable future. CPs do nothing but punish newer players.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    ...
    Danksta wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.

    My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!

    What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
    How will I feel useful to my raid guild?


    You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.

    You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
    You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.

    Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...

    It's not even a PvP issue. CP point's have ruined PvE too. They've trivialised the majority of content which used to be fun and challenging

    The content your referring to, public dungeons, overland bosses, etc., got NERFED deliberately to cater to casuals. This has nothing to do with CP. "CP power creep" is a myth propagated by certain parties on the forums and elsewhere. My sustain is worse at 810 CP than it was at 510 CP! Where is the creep? All the real power creep comes from these stupid proc sets like Zaan that ZOS keeps adding to sell their lackluster DLC. That's what you should be complaining about!

    I'm not talking about overland content...

    I'm talking about older dungeons and trials. Base game and older DLC dungeons can be soloed on vet HM now by any half competent player. Vet Craglorn trials can be run with PUGs now.

    Challenging content is now relegated to the latest dungeon/trial release only. Instead of having 34 dungeons and 7 trials we can play for a challenge, we have like 6 dungeons and 3 trials. CP progression has reduced how much endgame content the game has.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on January 19, 2019 9:12PM
  • thedude33
    thedude33
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    I had a eureka moment last week when entering BGs for the first time. I am almost max CP

    I didn't get insta ganked like you can in Cyrodil
    I actually did damage to most everyone.

    The fights were far more enjoyable than they are in Cyrodil.

    I am a convert. When people said that the CP system made the game less enjoyable, I didn't understand why. Now I do.
    1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
    1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK)

  • Crafts_Many_Boxes
    Crafts_Many_Boxes
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    ...
    Danksta wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    OH man here come all the "BUT MUH POINTS" cries.

    My beautiful fake, meaningless, vertical progression treadmill points!!!!!1!!!!

    What will I ever do if I can't log in when the new update hits and increase my elemental damage by 0.002%
    How will I feel useful to my raid guild?


    You are all on a treadmill. While you happily invested more and more points into damage and sustain. ZOS was busy nerfing Helping Hands passive from DK, Leeching strikes passive from nightblade, dark deal from sorc. Making class abilities more homogenized and less unique, all to pay for the power gained by the champion system.

    You were getting buffs from one system and then getting your class skills nerfed from the other and some of you still want more fake imaginary points. Im sure ZOS can implement something to spend your points on that doesn't destabilize the game.
    You can blame PvP for that, every "homogenizing" move by any dev is an attempt to balance PvP.

    Because of the imbalance that the cp system created...

    It's not even a PvP issue. CP point's have ruined PvE too. They've trivialised the majority of content which used to be fun and challenging

    The content your referring to, public dungeons, overland bosses, etc., got NERFED deliberately to cater to casuals. This has nothing to do with CP. "CP power creep" is a myth propagated by certain parties on the forums and elsewhere. My sustain is worse at 810 CP than it was at 510 CP! Where is the creep? All the real power creep comes from these stupid proc sets like Zaan that ZOS keeps adding to sell their lackluster DLC. That's what you should be complaining about!

    I'm not talking about overland content...

    I'm talking about older dungeons and trials. Base game and older DLC dungeons can be soloed on vet HM now by any half competent player. Vet Craglorn trials can be run with PUGs now.

    Challenging content is now relegated to the latest dungeon/trial release only. Instead of having 34 dungeons and 7 trials we can play for a challenge, we have like 6 dungeons and 3 trials. CP progression has reduced how much endgame content the game has.

    Meh, that's how vertical progression MMOs are. At least in this system, the gear is still relevant in those "easy" dungeons and trials, and for the record even a lot of high CP players still struggle in those.

    The key point is that the gear in them is still relevant to endgame, so they're still run. There's a healthy population running them. So from a game design perspective, it works. In fact, all gear at endgame being CP 160 works better than other purely vertical systems.

    Personally, I like having easier trials and dungeons. Rift, my previous MMO, had different tiers to raids so that newer players could participate as well who weren't necessarily as good. And over time they even nerfed the older raids more heavily to further encourage participation. Vertical systems done well are fine is my point.
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Nebthet78 wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »

    Because ZOS will absolutely, 100%, unequivocally never put am arbitrary hard cap on DPS. It's a terrible idea, it makes no sense, and it'll never happen. If it does, I will give you all of my stuff and delete my account. Maybe on the same day all schools in the world will just start automatically giving everyone C's regardless of their actual performance, all jobs in the world will start paying everyone $20 an hour regardless of their responsibility, and monkeys will fly out of my butthole.

    Again, you are not going to change my mind. I know rather well how things work in this game. I don't care what you call them.

    Rotations like that do infact contain animation cancelling, no matter what you say, unless you are allowing for half a second between each skill before your light attack... which is the issue a lot of people have with animation canceling.. once their internet latency reaches a certain amount.. mine is 133 latency in game, I can no longer animation cancel. My light attack will not fire reliably without a pause.

    I tested this issue by running trials and on AAHM.... where stam dps stand inside each other... my movements matched the other StamDPS... only difference between me and them.... my light attacks were not firing off when they should have within the rotations. As the latency got worse, the longer the pauses or inability to fire light attacks at the right time happened when weaving between skills while trying to cancel the animation. At the end of that fight, I had at least a 10k difference in DPS from the other player, AND because I couldn't animation cancel to get off more light attacks quickly, Sunderflame's proc was only at 30% uptime.

    Animation Cancelling is an issue with this game that ZOS has been unable to fix. It is inbedded into the code of this game. Putting a cap on the DPS will help to mitigate the DPS differential from Animation Cancelling. It will lower the celing without gutting the middle ground players.

    With all the other changes in the last 2 years that ZOS has done to nerf players damage and regeneration because of the DPS creep, they have proven that there really isn't any other way to lower the ceiling in this game without hurting other players play styles. I'd rather sacrifice the 1% top tier player base to for the betterment of the 30+% middle tiered players, and the rest of the lower tiered players whom are sick and tired of being nerfed over and over again because players in guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged can race through content and find it too easy.

    So, I'm going to say this again.... you aren't going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change your's. My idea is now out there for consideration and it is possible it may be something they are looking at. They may even try it before they completely give up on CP to see what happens and how things play out in the game.

    But I'm now putting you on Ignore. I had my say. I don't care if you agree or not. You seem to have to have the last say in everything don't you. I notice it in all the threads to participate in. Bye Bye now.

    Maybe your DPS was 10k lower than everyone else because you're running a bad set like Sunderflame and you apparently don't even understand how to proc it. Hint: it doesn't proc from light attacks. :lol:
  • itsfatbass
    itsfatbass
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    Didn't they mention from the beginning that even the CP system wasn't really their ultimate goal? Well if they are gonna stop dishing those out then I sure hope they have their long term goal already in motion.
    ~PC/NA~ Magblade, Tankanist, Healplar, Stamcro, Oakensorc, Healden, Tanknight ~PLUR~
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

    I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

    You got a pretty shallow definition of what unique and powerfull means. No they are not unique. All classes got repeatedly nerfed to compensate for the power u gain through cp and gear. They are shadows of theirselves at this point.

    Please describe to me a non-shallow definition of what unique and powerful mean. How, specifically, does nerfing classes/races make them less unique? Are they less unique because they no longer have an advantage over another class? If so, what's the difference between "uniqueness" and class imbalance? How did nerfing classes make them less unique if all the classes were nerfed? If all the classes were nerfed, how does that make them less powerful relative to the other classes? Were they nerfed unequally? Do you equate power to seeing bigger numbers on your screen, or is power related to your effectiveness against other classes? Do you define uniqueness as differences in numbers on your screen or a difference in class skills?

    Thank you in advance for your answers. I'm looking forward to being informed about uniqueness and power in a less shallow way.

    They are less unique because their power comes from the gear and cp instead of the class itself. Take sustain for example. Classes should get their sustain from powerful class sustain mechanics that make each class unique and powerful in their own way. But over the years all class sustain tools got butchered to compensate for sustain u get through cp and gear. They no longer make classes feel unique, powerful and giving the classes identity cause simply put they are not strong enough. It doesn't even matter if u use half of them.

    Same applies for other class abilities as well. Repentance, purge, bol, shards, wings, battle roar, helping hands, siphoning, funnel health, frags, streak, ward etc. They were once the backbone of the classes that made them feel unique, powerful and gave them identity. Now they are all just random abilities cause simply put, the backbone of each class now is the gear they are using and their cp.

    So, would a re-worked progression system that boosted specific skills in each class meet your needs?

    I'll just chalk it up to us wanting different things from the game, but none of what you talked about really matters to me. Maybe it's because I only play two classes so far. Maybe it's because I only care about my power as it relates to whatever enemy I'm fighting. Maybe it's because I don't min/max. Maybe it's because I don't PVP. Maybe it's because being the "best" is not important to me. Maybe it's because I'm not a numbers person. Maybe it's because I don't use guides. Maybe it's because I'm in no rush to get to max CP. Maybe it's because the fantasy is more important to me than the numbers. Maybe it's because I turn off combat numbers and the ONLY time I look at my combat metrics is when someone complains about "not enough DPS" in a dungeon. (Almost always I'm doing the most DPS and it's either the other DPS lacking or someone being a jerk because we didn't burn a boss down fast enough for them).

    Shallow or not, the only thing that matters to me in the uniqueness category is that the classes play differently. My sorc is a burner. I get the job done quick to minimize the damage done to me. My AOEs are pretty much instant and dropped in the middle of a group to do the most damage. My warden's damage is slower. I play with a mix of dps and healing. My AOE is delayed and I have to line it up for it to hit as many targets as possible. Obviously not the extent of my game play, just a quick example of how I differentiate my characters.

    I'm not a role player in the sense that I stand in the middle of town talking to other players with an elaborate backstory, but I do create my characters with a theme. I chose my skills and armor more based on that theme than on how strong they will be compared to other players or at end game.

    I don't envy ZOS in trying to meet the needs of people with so many ideas of what the game should be. I want it to be a certain way and I'll keep fighting for it. I'm trying hard to remember that others play style is only different than me, not necessarily better or worse. I wish we all would.

    A system that actually offers character customisation which was the whole freaking point of introducing the system in the first place. A system that gives meaningful and fun changes to ur characters with limited combat effectiveness. Thats how they sold the CP system, that it was going to offer character customisation. . There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    What you explained doesnt actually make the classes unique. Creating ur characters differently doesnt make the classes unique. I am talking about the design of the class. Just because i can make a DK and make him fast it doesnt mean that the identity of DKs and what is unique about them is to be fast. But since you are not actually playing all classes and in the depth required to actually understand why people are sick and tired of this system then its no wonder why you dont understand the huge problems it created and what classes used to feel like prior to getting butchered.

    Edited by pieratsos on January 20, 2019 10:58AM
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?
    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 20, 2019 11:10AM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    They bottom-weighted all the CP nodes and implemented catchup system a while ago. Raising the cap actually makes it easier for new players to reach a viable number of CP. Refusing to raise the CP cap is not merely pointless, but actually harmful to new players. Adding 30 more CP is less than a 2% benefit.

    Most builds stop at 56 points in a node, because the diminishing returns become extreme. The difference between 56 and 100 is only 3%. (56 = 12%, 100 = 15%)

    Adding more CP has not caused power creep since the nodes were bottom weighted. If they want to reduce power creep, they should flatten the curves on the nodes. If that's too punishing to new players, then boost the catchup gains.

    Rasing the cap helps new players catch up. 400 or 500 CP is viable, and the higher the cap, the less XP it takes to reach 400 CP. A higher cap is a good thing for new players.

    Everyone screeching for a CP cap freeze doesn't understand the system. And in typical fashion, they listens to the loudest group people who don't know what they're talking about.

    Except that isnt even the point of why people are happy with this. They are not happy because they froze the cap. They are happy because ZOS finally seems to understand the problems this system created and may look in alternative ways for an end game system which is actually what people want. To see the current iteration of the CP system reworked. The issue isnt the difference between high and low CP players. The issue is the CP system itself.

    As far as what u explained about diminishing returns, it is correct for the most part. Except you are missing one very important thing which prety much changes everything. That the whole concept of diminishing returns is built basically on one thing. That the one with high CP actually stacks into passives and therefore is actually getting hit with diminishing returns while the low CP player is getting the most out of it with his points. But here is the thing with the current iteration of CP system. There are so many good passives to put ur points in so you dont need to stack into them which essentially reduces the effectiveness of diminishing returns since you are simply not getting hit by them. You literally admitted this urself. You said most builds stop at 56 points. Which means they are not actually getting hit by diminishing returns.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    So let me get this straight. Customising ur character the way you like it is not fun but some arbitrary points in a system that you dont even see is fun?

    *rollseyes*

    We indeed find different things fun.
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    Umm, if you are talking about about the race change tokens etc those are just ideas of what a system with customisation options would look like. Its ok tho, im sure ZOS will do fine even if those tokens were in the system. They'd sell another reskined mount next update for 50$ and call it a day.
    Edited by pieratsos on January 20, 2019 11:29AM
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    So let me get this straight. Customising ur character the way you like it is not fun but some arbitrary points in a system that you dont even see is fun?

    *rollseyes*

    We indeed find different things fun.

    CP points ARE customizing the character the way I want. I can already purchase things in the crown store that make me look different and there are already systems in the game to make my mount go faster.

    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 20, 2019 11:30AM
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    Double post.

    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 20, 2019 11:28AM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    So let me get this straight. Customising ur character the way you like it is not fun but some arbitrary points in a system that you dont even see is fun?

    *rollseyes*

    We indeed find different things fun.

    CP points ARE customizing the character the way I want. I can already purchase things in the crown store that make me look different and there are already systems in the game to make my mount go faster.

    Umm, no its not. The character customisation options in the current iteration are very limited. The power the system offers is so great to the point where spending ur points in specific stars is actually required unless you want to gimp urself. What the current iteration of the system offers is character optimisation, not customisation. They are absolutely not the same thing.
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    So let me get this straight. Customising ur character the way you like it is not fun but some arbitrary points in a system that you dont even see is fun?

    *rollseyes*

    We indeed find different things fun.

    CP points ARE customizing the character the way I want. I can already purchase things in the crown store that make me look different and there are already systems in the game to make my mount go faster.

    Umm, no its not. The character customisation options in the current iteration are very limited. The power the system offers is so great to the point where spending ur points in specific stars is actually required unless you want to gimp urself. What the current iteration of the system offers is character optimisation, not customisation. They are absolutely not the same thing.

    You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.
    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 20, 2019 11:42AM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    VanyelMohr wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    There are hundreds of ideas in the forums. From increased mount speed, to changing animations, unlocking race change tokens and character slots. There are so many ideas to the point where people wouldnt even know where to spend their points. Thats what a fun system sounds like.

    That does not sound like a fun system to me. That's okay. We can find different things fun. ;)

    Also, wouldn't some of those things mean less money for ZOS?

    So let me get this straight. Customising ur character the way you like it is not fun but some arbitrary points in a system that you dont even see is fun?

    *rollseyes*

    We indeed find different things fun.

    CP points ARE customizing the character the way I want. I can already purchase things in the crown store that make me look different and there are already systems in the game to make my mount go faster.

    Umm, no its not. The character customisation options in the current iteration are very limited. The power the system offers is so great to the point where spending ur points in specific stars is actually required unless you want to gimp urself. What the current iteration of the system offers is character optimisation, not customisation. They are absolutely not the same thing.

    You say po-tay-tow, I say po-tah-tow.

    What i am saying is that i want a system that gives me options to customize my character the way i want. Make choices for the specific character and actually watch those choices i make having an impact in my gameplay without worrying that my choices will make my character weaker. What we have now, does not give me options to customise my character the way i want. It essentially forces me to put points in specific stars to get the power that was sucked out of my class back.
    Edited by pieratsos on January 20, 2019 11:49AM
  • PapaWeeb
    PapaWeeb
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    GreenhaloX wrote: »
    however, for PvE, it is character oppression. Toons have been shriveled with every damn DLC and updates.

    Damn, don't show this guy the current scores on trials. Definitely don't tell him about the 55k+ dummy parses
    PC EU
  • VanyelMohr
    VanyelMohr
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    What i am saying is that i want a system that gives me options to customize my character the way i want. Make choices for the specific character and actually watch those choices i make having an impact in my gameplay without worrying that my choices will make my character weaker. What we have now, does not give me options to customise my character the way i want. It essentially forces me to put points in specific stars to get the power that was sucked out of my class back.

    And I want a system that makes my character feel stronger on day 365 than on day 1. This is called progression. That has been a key part of RPGs as I have ALWAYS played them. Take away progression and you have a separate dress up game I can play on my mobile phone and a fighting game I can play on any console. I don't like dress up games and I don't like fighting games. I like role playing games.

    It does not have to be the current CP system. I am open to the idea that there is a better way to represent progression in the game. New skill animations and "perks" that I can already get in game are not vertical progression and will not satisfy my desires in the game. ZOS is welcome to make whatever choice they want. So am I and my choice will be to find my enjoyment elsewhere if they remove progression altogether.
    Edited by VanyelMohr on January 20, 2019 12:14PM
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