Adapt to the race changes and quit complaining - changes are always going to happen

Aurielle · January 2019

OP, those “minor” differences you mention can affect the outcome of a close fight in PVP.

As I mentioned in another thread, I’m simply going to zerg surf and maybe afk in BGs (because let’s face it, they’re never going to fix the MMR) when the update goes live. Some of my chars were race-changed recently over the past few months, and I would have to race change AGAIN to keep them as effective in BGs/small scale PVP as they currently are. I’m frankly tired of the continually shifting goalposts. It seems like just about EVERY update, there are major changes that I have to adapt to. I’ve played few other MMOs in the past that made so many drastic changes quite this frequently. The fact that I’m not angrily asking for more race change tokens is merely a reflection of how defeated I am with the constant attempts this dev team is making at achieving “balance” with a sledgehammer.

Sticking to other games for serious PVP now. The only thing ESO is good for at the moment (personally speaking) is casual-tier zerg surfing and fashion.

Seraphayel · January 2019

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

Aurielle · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

MaxwellC · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

TL;DR:
Adapt to the changes, stop whining. Race changes apply to everybody so if your generic / meta race combo gets weaker everyone else's gets weaker too and in the end nothing changes. If you based your race decision on something as volatile as racial bonuses, that was inevitably about to change in the future, it's your fault if you don't like your race combo anymore.

If you're always chasing the meta you'll never be satisfied and always be disappointed because of any changes that will be made.

I love when people make threads about stop complaining about X in the game. Luckily I've came out unscathed but people paid for the game so they very well get to complain as they put their money into this game; who do you think you are trying to dictate people voicing their opinions.

Seraphayel · January 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Aurielle · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Ooooh, we get to dodge roll a couple more times. Big whoop. Doesn’t change the fact (yes, fact) that we’ll be doing less damage than before, and that our damage will be outclassed by Altmers. Again, the only way for my character to NOT lose power is to race change or to respec as stamina. Nothing I’m saying here is incorrect, and if you disagree with me, then that’s some pretty strong kool aid you’re drinking.

Iluvrien · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes apply to EVERYBODY hence nothing, absolutely nothing changes in the end.

You mean all of the PvE mobs, delve bosses, world bosses, dungeon bosses etc. are getting nerfed too?

I must have missed that in their announcement. Could you point me to the location where it is? Thanks.

In which way would this even matter? The game is far too easy in every aspect except HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons. And even then, all of the players are struck by the changes. I don't even understand your argument about the PvE NPCs, it doesn't matter in the slightest way.

It isn't hard to understand.

That you think that the only challenges in this game exist in "HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons" is indicative of why you might not be getting this.

Not everyone is at the point where endgame content is the only challenge remaining to them.

Brand new players? Casuals who don't min/max? Those without the best connection or the best system?

Basically, anyone who is finding some of the existing content in the game challenging for any reason may be negatively affected by this.

That all PvP players may be equally affected by these changes is one (debatable) thing. That these changes are being made without answering changes in the world for PvE is a different one. It is also a valid concern for anyone who has any interest in the non-endgame population.

WhipSmartMcoy · January 2019

I chose a Khajiit because I love the Khajiit race. That doesn't make me any less disappointed that I'll be losing sustain and damage next patch.

If people don't "***, whine, and complain", then we leave ourselves at the mercy of the devs. If there isn't any feedback, they have no way of showing the community that they listen.

JumpmanLane · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

If you chose your race based on their racial bonuses - a subject that's about to change as often as all other class/race/balance-related aspects in the game - it's solely your fault and not ZOS if you're getting stronger or weaker just depending on that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the way how this has been approached - reduced price on race changes tokens several hours before they announced the race changes seems like a very shoddy business practice of generating cash - but you knew it was coming and it's totally in ZOS regard to do so. Usually I don't defend ZOS but this time I have to. You get one free race change which they did not have to offer at all. Stop asking for unlimited race changes or one race change per character or whatsoever - that's just a ridiculous request.

All of the whining, crying and complaining because your race might be 1% or 2% weaker after the patch is absurd. And even if your Dunmer - you just picked because of additional fire damage - or your Khajiit - you just picked because of additional stealth damage - is 5% or 10% weaker after the patch: it does not matter at all. If you chose the race just because of those reasons, to be the best, chase the meta or have max stats, it's your fault that you're weaker now. It was very obvious that the most generic / common race / class / stat combos will be weaker now.

And you know what? The race changes apply to everyone so everyone will be weaker at the same time and you basically lose nothing. In the end the changes are not even final yet so race combos that are still parsing too good in comparison (Magicka Altmer for example) might get slightly reduced to bring them all closer together.

TL;DR:

Adapt to the changes, stop whining. Race changes apply to everybody so if your generic / meta race combo gets weaker everyone else's gets weaker too and in the end nothing changes. If you based your race decision on something as volatile as racial bonuses, that was inevitably about to change in the future, it's your fault if you don't like your race combo anymore.

If you're always chasing the meta you'll never be satisfied and always be disappointed because of any changes that will be made.

My MagDk (Dunmer that she is) got a BUFF! My playstyle (DW Destro) will hit ever slightly so harder. I ain’t complaining at all! (PvP). Can’t wait for it to hit live!

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Ooooh, we get to dodge roll a couple more times. Big whoop. Doesn’t change the fact (yes, fact) that we’ll be doing less damage than before, and that our damage will be outclassed by Altmers. Again, the only way for my character to NOT lose power is to race change or to respec as stamina. Nothing I’m saying here is incorrect, and if you disagree with me, then that’s some pretty strong kool aid you’re drinking.

My MagDk can BLOCK CAST a lil bit longer. With the weapon damage her light attacks weaved in between every Whip will hit for a little bit more. No high elf is gonna DW swords on a MagDk. I’ll take that 5% damage. I ain’t race changing. Even with all points in magicka on a MagDk, STAMINA has its uses. Getting by on what little stam is available with zero in stam just got a little bit easier.

In the end it’s not the class, it’s not the race, it’s the build and skill.

Seraphayel · January 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Ooooh, we get to dodge roll a couple more times. Big whoop. Doesn’t change the fact (yes, fact) that we’ll be doing less damage than before, and that our damage will be outclassed by Altmers. Again, the only way for my character to NOT lose power is to race change or to respec as stamina. Nothing I’m saying here is incorrect, and if you disagree with me, then that’s some pretty strong kool aid you’re drinking.

You seem to not understand what balancing means. If you don't want to lose power and still do max DPS in PvP, then use your free race change and become an Altmer. You seem to not grasp that max DPS might not be the most important thing in PvP and that something like an additional dodge roll can make or break a fight as much as the 2000 Magicka (or whatever) you lose.

Seraphayel · January 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes apply to EVERYBODY hence nothing, absolutely nothing changes in the end.

You mean all of the PvE mobs, delve bosses, world bosses, dungeon bosses etc. are getting nerfed too?

I must have missed that in their announcement. Could you point me to the location where it is? Thanks.

In which way would this even matter? The game is far too easy in every aspect except HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons. And even then, all of the players are struck by the changes. I don't even understand your argument about the PvE NPCs, it doesn't matter in the slightest way.

It isn't hard to understand.

That you think that the only challenges in this game exist in "HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons" is indicative of why you might not be getting this.

Not everyone is at the point where endgame content is the only challenge remaining to them.

Brand new players? Casuals who don't min/max? Those without the best connection or the best system?

Basically, anyone who is finding some of the existing content in the game challenging for any reason may be negatively affected by this.

That all PvP players may be equally affected by these changes is one (debatable) thing. That these changes are being made without answering changes in the world for PvE is a different one. It is also a valid concern for anyone who has any interest in the non-endgame population.

Honestly nobody that you've mentioned would even be bothered by racials. If those players struggle with the game (and it's overall incredibly easy when it comes to questing) they couldn't care less about the 2000 Magicka or Stamina they lose in the end. Those players have problems on another level nothing which gets covered by racials.

SiAScORCH · January 2019

What you fail to realize is that people built their character around certain aspects. Gear, certain sets, PvE and PvP. With the changes certain characters aren't as good for PvE and are better suited for PvP playstyle. They're screwing the player base over changes they implemented without looking out for the players interest.

One free race change token is useless for a person who has 7-8 characters.

Some of the people here cry about min/maxers, don't hate on us because we like the be the best at what we do.

Iluvrien · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes apply to EVERYBODY hence nothing, absolutely nothing changes in the end.

You mean all of the PvE mobs, delve bosses, world bosses, dungeon bosses etc. are getting nerfed too?

I must have missed that in their announcement. Could you point me to the location where it is? Thanks.

In which way would this even matter? The game is far too easy in every aspect except HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons. And even then, all of the players are struck by the changes. I don't even understand your argument about the PvE NPCs, it doesn't matter in the slightest way.

It isn't hard to understand.

That you think that the only challenges in this game exist in "HM trials and some of the newer DLC dungeons" is indicative of why you might not be getting this.

Not everyone is at the point where endgame content is the only challenge remaining to them.

Brand new players? Casuals who don't min/max? Those without the best connection or the best system?

Basically, anyone who is finding some of the existing content in the game challenging for any reason may be negatively affected by this.

That all PvP players may be equally affected by these changes is one (debatable) thing. That these changes are being made without answering changes in the world for PvE is a different one. It is also a valid concern for anyone who has any interest in the non-endgame population.

Honestly nobody that you've mentioned would even be bothered by racials. If those players struggle with the game (and it's overall incredibly easy when it comes to questing) they couldn't care less about the 2000 Magicka or Stamina they lose in the end. Those players have problems on another level nothing which gets covered by racials.

These players who are already struggling wouldn't be bothered by a loss in resources and damage output...

... is that honestly your argument?

What you might mean is that they may not be tracking the numbers. But tracking the numbers, and being affected by them is different. It actually improves the argument against these changes since the people who are least likely to be tracking the numbers are also least likely to be able to work around them.

Nogawd · January 2019

uFuqinwitme wrote: »

I don't think you quite understand the definition of a competitive player.

Competitive player? I call it personality disorder.

Aurielle · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Ooooh, we get to dodge roll a couple more times. Big whoop. Doesn’t change the fact (yes, fact) that we’ll be doing less damage than before, and that our damage will be outclassed by Altmers. Again, the only way for my character to NOT lose power is to race change or to respec as stamina. Nothing I’m saying here is incorrect, and if you disagree with me, then that’s some pretty strong kool aid you’re drinking.

You seem to not understand what balancing means. If you don't want to lose power and still do max DPS in PvP, then use your free race change and become an Altmer. You seem to not grasp that max DPS might not be the most important thing in PvP and that something like an additional dodge roll can make or break a fight as much as the 2000 Magicka (or whatever) you lose.

I absolutely understand that max DPS is not the most important thing in PVP. I also understand, however, what makes my build work, so please don’t be quite so patronizing, mmkay? Extra stamina will have almost no impact on my build. A smaller magicka pool and no bonus to fire damage WILL, conversely, have a significant impact on my build; it will reduce my overall damage, my self-healing, and my mitigation (I use Armour Master on my back bar, and therefore benefit from having as large a magicka pool as possible for my shield).

I’d use that race change token, but, y’know, I also have cosmetic reasons for preferring a Dunmer over an Altmer on that character. I also have other builds (my orc stamDK, for instance), that will be negatively affected by the racial changes, so... unless I’m willing to purchase additional race change tokens (which I’m not) I’ll be playing other online games that don’t shift the damn goalposts and nerf my characters every other update.

Seraphayel · January 2019

SiAScORCH wrote: »

These players who are already struggling wouldn't be bothered by a loss in resources and damage output... ... is that honestly your argument?

What you might mean is that they may not be tracking the numbers. But tracking the numbers, and being affected by them is different. It actually improves the argument against these changes since the people who are least likely to be tracking the numbers are also least likely to be able to work around them.

Yes, that is my argument. Those players don't care about numbers at all. Most likely they didn't pick a race because of their bonuses, they picked it because of roleplaying aspects or just because they liked race a more than race b.

They might be affected by the changes (like everybody else) but they won't recognize it because they simply don't care about things like that and the changes from 3000-4000 Magicka to just a flat amount of 2000 is so negligible for them that it doesn't matter. What is there even that they must "work around"? Passives changed. Most of the changes will pass and they don't even know they changed at all unless they read the tooltips.

Aurielle wrote: »

I absolutely understand that max DPS is not the most important thing in PVP. I also understand, however, what makes my build work, so please don’t be quite so patronizing, mmkay? Extra stamina will have almost no impact on my build. A smaller magicka pool and no bonus to fire damage WILL, conversely, have a significant impact on my build; it will reduce my overall damage, my self-healing, and my mitigation (I use Armour Master on my back bar, and therefore benefit from having as large a magicka pool as possible for my shield).

I’d use that race change token, but, y’know, I also have cosmetic reasons for preferring a Dunmer over an Altmer on that character. I also have other builds (my orc stamDK, for instance), that will be negatively affected by the racial changes, so... unless I’m willing to purchase additional race change tokens (which I’m not) I’ll be playing other online games that don’t shift the damn goalposts and nerf my characters every other update.

As I said, in an online game constant changes to balance things out are normal. I don't know any MMORPG that doesn't do them. The important thing is, the differences pre-post racial changes do not come close to those "drastic changes" you're refering. The + Fire Damage loss of Dunmer might be one of the most recognizable and it's one of the changes I don't fully agree on with but it's nothing that totally ruins your build or character.

The thing is, you're complaining about balancing (you have the right to do so), an integral part of this game. To begin with you shouldn't have chosen your race based on numbers but personal preferences/flavour on races in general. If you prefer Dunmer over Altmer, just stick to it. No need to apply to the most generic / number-wise meta builds.

Seraphayel · January 2019

SiAScORCH wrote: »

What you fail to realize is that people built their character around certain aspects. Gear, certain sets, PvE and PvP. With the changes certain characters aren't as good for PvE and are better suited for PvP playstyle. They're screwing the player base over changes they implemented without looking out for the players interest.

One free race change token is useless for a person who has 7-8 characters.

Some of the people here cry about min/maxers, don't hate on us because we like the be the best at what we do.

(Meta-)Players interest: to be the best with least effort.

I don't hate on you and now I'm generalizing, so don't take this personal: most of you (=min-maxers) couldn't even come up with own builds. You're just waiting for Alcast's newest iteration of the "best" build to copy & paste it. If any of the theorycrafters would come up with the "best Magsorc build" that favors Imperial or Bosmer as the race to go you'd hop on that train and play it unquestioned, even when in reality that build is factually worse.

Iluvrien · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

These players who are already struggling wouldn't be bothered by a loss in resources and damage output... ... is that honestly your argument?

What you might mean is that they may not be tracking the numbers. But tracking the numbers, and being affected by them is different. It actually improves the argument against these changes since the people who are least likely to be tracking the numbers are also least likely to be able to work around them.

Yes, that is my argument. Those players don't care about numbers at all. Most likely they didn't pick a race because of their bonuses, they picked it because of roleplaying aspects or just because they liked race a more than race b.

They might be affected by the changes (like everybody else) but they won't recognize it because they simply don't care about things like that and the changes from 3000-4000 Magicka to just a flat amount of 2000 is so negligible for them that it doesn't matter. What is there even that they must "work around"? Passives changed. Most of the changes will pass and they don't even know they changed at all unless they read the tooltips.

[This is a quote of my post but, for some reason, it has SiAScORCH's name on it]

You don't need to read tooltips to know that things have changed.

Here is my line of reasoning. Please tell me where you think it is faulty. For a magicka character:

Magicka is the main stat, so both damage and resources are calculated from it.
Lower main stat means less damage for (many) abilities -> More casts are needed to defeat a mob/boss/etc.
Lower resources means fewer casts within the primary pool -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.
More casts are needed because of the lower damage output -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.
Time to kill increases which can put more pressure on the other stats (Health & Healing, Stamina & Rolling/Blocking)

To me, that looks like a situation where the difference could become clear even without looking at numbers/tooltips and the feel of the character in combat will change. Especially against more significant enemies.

Kadoin · January 2019

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

These players who are already struggling wouldn't be bothered by a loss in resources and damage output... ... is that honestly your argument?

What you might mean is that they may not be tracking the numbers. But tracking the numbers, and being affected by them is different. It actually improves the argument against these changes since the people who are least likely to be tracking the numbers are also least likely to be able to work around them.

Yes, that is my argument. Those players don't care about numbers at all. Most likely they didn't pick a race because of their bonuses, they picked it because of roleplaying aspects or just because they liked race a more than race b.

They might be affected by the changes (like everybody else) but they won't recognize it because they simply don't care about things like that and the changes from 3000-4000 Magicka to just a flat amount of 2000 is so negligible for them that it doesn't matter. What is there even that they must "work around"? Passives changed. Most of the changes will pass and they don't even know they changed at all unless they read the tooltips.

[This is a quote of my post but, for some reason, it has SiAScORCH's name on it]

You don't need to read tooltips to know that things have changed.

Here is my line of reasoning. Please tell me where you think it is faulty. For a magicka character:
Magicka is the main stat, so both damage and resources are calculated from it.

Lower main stat means less damage for (many) abilities -> More casts are needed to defeat a mob/boss/etc.

Lower resources means fewer casts within the primary pool -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.

More casts are needed because of the lower damage output -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.

Time to kill increases which can put more pressure on the other stats (Health & Healing, Stamina & Rolling/Blocking)

To me, that looks like a situation where the difference could become clear even without looking at numbers/tooltips and the feel of the character in combat will change. Especially against more significant enemies.

Not every mag char stacked mag to the moon. I didn't and I'm happy for the changes. The % modifiers were worthless, esp. since I had to invest in health + stam after the shield changes.

RedBranch · January 2019

I honestly see changes as a new game challenge... figuring this game out and what works or doesn’t is part of the fun

Moonsorrow · January 2019

@Seraphayel

Heya, remember all the posts where you complain all sorts of things? Like i asked on your topic where you complain about premades ruining battlegrounds?

Premades can happen in mmo, there are other people. This is not a single player game.

You should just adapt and quit complaining.

You are just acting like you can pick what people can have opinions about. So what is it.. YOU can complain about issues in the game, but others should not?

You know there is a medical diagnosis on people like that who have an illusion that they are more important than everyone else. Just saying.

Crixus8000 · January 2019

It's really pathetic people telling others what they can and can't complain about. And then saying "just adapt" well adapt to what ? I'm just weaker now, I don't have to solve a puzzle or riddle I have just been nerfed, simple. No matter what I do it will be worse than before so yeah I accept that but it can still be annoying, and I think people have the right to be annoyed when a character they have been playing since the start just get's made worse and worse. Maybe one day I will know what a buff feels like, that would be nice.

Tetrafy · January 2019

OtarTheMad wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I feel bad for ZOS, they can't win in any situation sometimes. In this one, if they had left racials the way that they are people would be asking for changes and saying: ZOS is "ignoring the fanbase". Instead they try to make some adjustments on a game that is changing constantly and all of this happens.

No one should feel bad for ZOS for having customers and pretty much everyone with customers has to handle them.

ZOS made a major error. It has nothing to do with the stats directly. The mistake they made was changing the identity of some races after almost 5 years. They could have adjusted balance while preserving racial identities.

ZOS has changed racial passives a few times over the years but every time they try to adjust things on a major scale the community blows up.

I remember when ZOS was going to change Nimble from having health recovery to max stamina and the uproar was HUGE to the point where ZOS deleted the change extremely quickly. Now how does that change that they wanted to make look? Makes sense right? But, I believe (could be wrong) but Khajiit's were top race at the time and meta I think was Health Regen tanks, so that hurt meta. However, ZOS saw the bigger picture and wanted to help us.

Anyway, I don't think this was a major error because they aren't finished changing things yet. However, I am done talking about this topic as most people (not saying you) can't do a healthy and fun back and forth with respect both ways and it's just frustrating to me. Have a good day.

It blows up because they are listening to the vocal minority then the unvocal majority gets pissed off.

Savos_Saren · January 2019

I wonder how many High Elf Sorcerers are on here like:

"Everything's fine... there's nothing to see..."

While all the Dunmer DKs are flipping out.

xaraan · January 2019

Adapt to the race changes and quit complaining - changes are always going to happen

You don't stop complaining if you care. You give feedback and hopefully things improve.

Blindly loyal fanboys are as toxic as their opposites IMO.

If nothing else gets improved by the time it rolls out, then of course you adapt, but still you don't have to stop complaining.

To make that statement is not very intelligent.

Korah_Eaglecry · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

If you chose your race based on their racial bonuses - a subject that's about to change as often as all other class/race/balance-related aspects in the game - it's solely your fault and not ZOS if you're getting stronger or weaker just depending on that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the way how this has been approached - reduced price on race changes tokens several hours before they announced the race changes seems like a very shoddy business practice of generating cash - but you knew it was coming and it's totally in ZOS regard to do so. Usually I don't defend ZOS but this time I have to. You get one free race change which they did not have to offer at all. Stop asking for unlimited race changes or one race change per character or whatsoever - that's just a ridiculous request.

All of the whining, crying and complaining because your race might be 1% or 2% weaker after the patch is absurd. And even if your Dunmer - you just picked because of additional fire damage - or your Khajiit - you just picked because of additional stealth damage - is 5% or 10% weaker after the patch: it does not matter at all. If you chose the race just because of those reasons, to be the best, chase the meta or have max stats, it's your fault that you're weaker now. It was very obvious that the most generic / common race / class / stat combos will be weaker now.

And you know what? The race changes apply to everyone so everyone will be weaker at the same time and you basically lose nothing. In the end the changes are not even final yet so race combos that are still parsing too good in comparison (Magicka Altmer for example) might get slightly reduced to bring them all closer together.

TL;DR:

Adapt to the changes, stop whining. Race changes apply to everybody so if your generic / meta race combo gets weaker everyone else's gets weaker too and in the end nothing changes. If you based your race decision on something as volatile as racial bonuses, that was inevitably about to change in the future, it's your fault if you don't like your race combo anymore.

If you're always chasing the meta you'll never be satisfied and always be disappointed because of any changes that will be made.

Yes, anyone giving feedback is complaining and we should never give feedback we should just accept what is planned. Never mind that this is the first iteration of the changes, theres an opportunity for these changes to be adjusted and its on the PTS for a reason. Even if these changes arent adjusted in time for the DLC, lets just pretend as if this feedback wont have any possible impact on future changes.

Lets all mindlessly swallow what ZOS puts in front of us, and anyone that steps out of line will be called a whiner, crybaby or complainer. But no one better call people making statements like OP a white knight or a fanboi.

Ohhgrizyyy · January 2019

oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »

Another post complaining about people complaining...brilliant.

Wow you're so edgey.

JumpmanLane · January 2019

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

No, you don't have to race change again to stay competitive @Aurielle - if you want to race change because you might be <5% better with the new race, that's your decision. Especially in PvP this doesn't matter at all. I could see this being a very rare issue when you're going for scoreboards (PvE) etc. but in PvP there are so many circumstances that influence the outcome of a fight, your race then vs. after the changes won't be one. The races are just brought closer together. Some combos were too strong, some too weak. The changes are effectively less impactful in PvP than PvE because in PvP everybody is struck by the changes. In the end almost nothing changes.

Where are the drastic changes? I wish ZOS would come up with drastic changes once in a while, they don't do that very often. In the last five years of ESO there were a handful of class changes that were drastic (e.g. removal or complete redesign of a skill) - most of it was negligible up-/downtuning. And that's happening now again with the racial changes. That's normal and none of the racials are changed so drastically that it totally alters your playstyle. It's number tuning, nothing else.

If you race change because you think race a is better than race b when it comes to x/y/z and when you furthermore think the meta will stay or be kept, it's your fault. This game is in constant development and so is your race/class. That's normal. I can understand the frustration but the real problem here is not ZOS, the real problem is the expectation to play the best race/class/stat combination (=meta) forever. And that's just not the case, neither in this game nor in any other.

LOL. I’m not a “meta” player. One of my favourite classes is my stealthless magNB Dunmer, which was built specifically to counter other NBs in BGs. My primary damaging skills were fire-based to take advantage of the Dunmer’s bonus to fire damage. Magicka Dunmers will basically be dead if the racial changes go ahead as planned. My build would only perform as well as it currently does if I were to race change to altmer. The other alternative is to scrap my build entirely and rebuild the character as a meta stamNB. No one likes losing power, especially when their build/race was never OP in the first place. People also generally don’t like having to completely reinvent a character that they spent a lot of time and in-game gold on. But suuuure, the fact that I’m annoyed that one of my favourite characters will be gutted with the racial update is “my fault.” *eyeroll*

That Magicka Dunmer will be dead is just ridiculous. No, they're not dead. The lose some Magicka but gain something else in advance. Especially in PvP Dunmer afterwards might overall perform better and not worse. They losing the + Fire Damage... okay, for a Dunmer DK a problem. For every other class: not so much. And again, Dark Elves get compensated by the Stamina buff which benefits even Magicks Dunmer in PvP.

Ooooh, we get to dodge roll a couple more times. Big whoop. Doesn’t change the fact (yes, fact) that we’ll be doing less damage than before, and that our damage will be outclassed by Altmers. Again, the only way for my character to NOT lose power is to race change or to respec as stamina. Nothing I’m saying here is incorrect, and if you disagree with me, then that’s some pretty strong kool aid you’re drinking.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

These players who are already struggling wouldn't be bothered by a loss in resources and damage output... ... is that honestly your argument?

What you might mean is that they may not be tracking the numbers. But tracking the numbers, and being affected by them is different. It actually improves the argument against these changes since the people who are least likely to be tracking the numbers are also least likely to be able to work around them.

Yes, that is my argument. Those players don't care about numbers at all. Most likely they didn't pick a race because of their bonuses, they picked it because of roleplaying aspects or just because they liked race a more than race b.

They might be affected by the changes (like everybody else) but they won't recognize it because they simply don't care about things like that and the changes from 3000-4000 Magicka to just a flat amount of 2000 is so negligible for them that it doesn't matter. What is there even that they must "work around"? Passives changed. Most of the changes will pass and they don't even know they changed at all unless they read the tooltips.

[This is a quote of my post but, for some reason, it has SiAScORCH's name on it]

You don't need to read tooltips to know that things have changed.

Here is my line of reasoning. Please tell me where you think it is faulty. For a magicka character:
Magicka is the main stat, so both damage and resources are calculated from it.

Lower main stat means less damage for (many) abilities -> More casts are needed to defeat a mob/boss/etc.

Lower resources means fewer casts within the primary pool -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.

More casts are needed because of the lower damage output -> Sustain becomes more of an issue.

Time to kill increases which can put more pressure on the other stats (Health & Healing, Stamina & Rolling/Blocking)

To me, that looks like a situation where the difference could become clear even without looking at numbers/tooltips and the feel of the character in combat will change. Especially against more significant enemies.

258 SPELL DAMAGE plus 1250 magicka is more effective spell power than losing 3600 Max Magicka on my build.

Running Bright Throat’s Alteration Mastery sustain is just not an issue. In fact it’s sort of lazy because I don’t HAVE to slap Ele Drain on EVERYBODY. So, sometimes I’ll even run Spinners Julianos just to keep my edge. Requires more skill. Yet, there’s lulls sometimes in PvP where you can get resources back.

I’ll take the extra stam and weapon damage. DW I have to hit people with the swords to proc the glyphs. Wouldn’t dream of race changing my MagDk to Altmer if the race changes go live. Gotta block. May as well block cast. Gotta sprint. Stam has its used on a MagDk.

SiAScORCH · January 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

SiAScORCH wrote: »

What you fail to realize is that people built their character around certain aspects. Gear, certain sets, PvE and PvP. With the changes certain characters aren't as good for PvE and are better suited for PvP playstyle. They're screwing the player base over changes they implemented without looking out for the players interest.

One free race change token is useless for a person who has 7-8 characters.

Some of the people here cry about min/maxers, don't hate on us because we like the be the best at what we do.

(Meta-)Players interest: to be the best with least effort.

I don't hate on you and now I'm generalizing, so don't take this personal: most of you (=min-maxers) couldn't even come up with own builds. You're just waiting for Alcast's newest iteration of the "best" build to copy & paste it. If any of the theorycrafters would come up with the "best Magsorc build" that favors Imperial or Bosmer as the race to go you'd hop on that train and play it unquestioned, even when in reality that build is factually worse.

Not taking it personal. Alcasts builds aren't meta tbh. They're good but they're built to his play style. It's like this, if you built your character for sustain, then High Elf isn't that anymore, cause Breton will out sustain it now with the recovery + higher reduced costs. If you were going for highest damage then you are still in a good place with High Elf. The thing is that's the reason you should get more than one race change token.

xMovingTarget · January 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

But it hit the Dunmer magDK meta hard and they are the ones complaining.

Dunmer mDK Meta was over long time ago. It is considered one of the worst to bring to a score trial run. mDK in general was nerfed hard over time.
We went from top dog king of the schoolyard to the kid that cries in the corner. And now with the changes to dunmer, mDK is fading away. You may be able to run it as altmer now. But you will always be outperformed by other melee(stam) classes.

Dunmer is destroyed in its main role as Magicka fire dps on all classes. To a point it is laughable to even think of using a Dunmer.
You can use it for stamina. It is actually strong there now. But this shift. It is too much.

OP sounds like a disgruntled zos salesman.
If you change things so drastically, you have to compensate for the changes(free race change). It is that simple. Dunmer is changed by 180°. Made from top burst damage magicka with bad sustain, to one of the top stamina DD races now. That is a radical change. And people should get compensated for it.
Or it should be changed to something less radical that is more in line of what that race is usually used for.

@Seraphayel imagine all your chars are Altmer Sorcs. Magicka. Now ZoS comes around and changes altmer to be a stamina race. Would you still say the same things you say?
I bet I know the answer.

Also, Nobody has the right to tell people how they should play a game.
For one it is fun to roleplay in a fantasy setting, the next one likes to quests and do dungeons but does not chase the best gear. The next one wants to be good and effective but doesnt take it too seriously, The next one wants to maximise everything around his character, gear etc. There are people that find enjoyment out of all these things. There is nothing wrong with it.

I like to get the best out of my chars. Be it race/class/role, gear, progression, builds etc. But I dont tell the casual player what they have to do. I even let the roleplayers alone. I even watch them sometimes if I come across some. It is fun and interesting.

But yea. You cant go around and tell people what they can or cannot say, what opinion they should or should not have. That will always make you look bad.

For the most part, people on the forums give good feedback. Even though it comes over as whiny sometimes. But it is not up to you to tell anybody they can or can not do that.