Conduit0 wrote: »

Curse, mages wrath, force pulse, and lightning staff heavies can not be reflected. Wings does not provide CC immunity, it provides snare immunity, so they can still be stunned. When you get a frag proc, rune cage/streak/stun of choice them then blast them in the face with frags before they can break free. Bonus points if you can time your stun/frag combo with a haunting curse tick.

Great theory ... until your frag, light attacks, Flame reach come flying back at you with increased strength b/c stun does not break the wings.

If you use streak to stun, the DK will be able to break CC and dodge /block / apply wings before your burst hits b/c you are facing away from the DK are are on GCD.

If you use rune cage. it announces itself ages ahead of time and the DK will simply dodge the stun. So you no stun, but a happy DK with wings.

As I said: great theory!

@Didgerion , it is not a balanced fight. The DK has the means to mitigate and outheal the damage without the use of wings, as is evident by their surviving builds that are not based on projectiles. So this means the reflecting wings are more than they need and should have - especially since it increases the damage of the refelcted projetiles effectivels increasing the damage of DKs against projectile based builds when it is not need, thus making the scales OP.

The whole thing would not be such a big issue, if ZOS, after years, would finally manage to provide sorcs with a decent stun that is also not reflectable (and dodgeable) so that sorc can finally return to Force Pulse, allowing them to put pressure on DKs, b/c let's be honest: just spamming Curse and Fury is just not cutting it - and neither is equipping a lightning staff and losing single target 8% damage, when your entire class is based on single target burst combos.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Thank you for understanding the implications of wings from other classes' perspectives. Far too many DK mains have a victim mentality and little-to-no experience with other classes giving the most absurd suggestions like "just slot force pulse"—as if an average-damage spammable with no weaving is ever going to kill anything with 3 brain cells.

I play all classes well enough to know their shortcomings and how to work around them. That's why I didn't do a suggestion like you mentioned. I suggested to buff sorc damage, instead of nerfing DK.

Not a lot of people here suggesting buffs to sorcs.

Galarthor wrote: »

If you use rune cage. it announces itself ages ahead of time and the DK will simply dodge the stun. So you no stun, but a happy DK with wings.

How many times can a mDK dodgeroll in a row?

No mdk can do it more than 3 times

NBrookus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

By the way, that skill sorceres use... what was the name? Rune something... is that reflectable?

Rune Cage. It is not reflectable.

While I understand why sorcs use Reach as a spammable, using a CC as a spammable is profoundly broken. Heck, I've used it on magDK as a spammable. It works too well for double duty, especially if you have a Master's staff.

As for Wings:
Many magsorcs and magblades and NB snipers want to pew pew at range with no drawbacks. MagDK's heals rely on melee range, and while they don't have the worst mobility in game (chains does work sometimes), their mobility is very poor. OPen world, they have to have something that keeps them from being a target dummy for ranged classes.

Shimmering Shield is a much more balanced idea for ranged protection. It gives good utility, a clear indicator to the opponent of it's status, and protects from range without penalizing ranged specs for existing. I personally prefer it to wings quite a bit, but the ult gen component would be too much when combined with DK's Battle Roar.

If Wings deflected or absorbed attacks instead of reflecting them, it would solve the issues on both sides. Then each morph could have a unique buff. Example: one provides snare immunity for 6 seconds, the other provides snare immunity for 2 seconds and major expedition for 4 seconds.

This!

NBrookus wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

By the way, that skill sorceres use... what was the name? Rune something... is that reflectable?

Rune Cage. It is not reflectable.

While I understand why sorcs use Reach as a spammable, using a CC as a spammable is profoundly broken. Heck, I've used it on magDK as a spammable. It works too well for double duty, especially if you have a Master's staff.

As for Wings:
Many magsorcs and magblades and NB snipers want to pew pew at range with no drawbacks. MagDK's heals rely on melee range, and while they don't have the worst mobility in game (chains does work sometimes), their mobility is very poor. OPen world, they have to have something that keeps them from being a target dummy for ranged classes.

Shimmering Shield is a much more balanced idea for ranged protection. It gives good utility, a clear indicator to the opponent of it's status, and protects from range without penalizing ranged specs for existing. I personally prefer it to wings quite a bit, but the ult gen component would be too much when combined with DK's Battle Roar.

If Wings deflected or absorbed attacks instead of reflecting them, it would solve the issues on both sides. Then each morph could have a unique buff. Example: one provides snare immunity for 6 seconds, the other provides snare immunity for 2 seconds and major expedition for 4 seconds.

While DKs might not have the greatest of mobility in the game, they are the best at disabling their opponents mobility so that balances their mediocre mobility out. In addition, there are no fights fought at range (except those between ranged builds) in this game b/c the gap closers are far more potnent than the gap openers.

DKs got gap closers to mitigate their range disadvantage. As such the whole arguement that they need the OP reflective scales is invalid - especially since they negate damage from projectiles regardless from what range these projectiles were fired from.

Just imagine Sorcs had a skill ontop of their current defensive toolkit that reflected the majority of the damage DKs are dealing. That's how it is for projectile based builds against DKs as DKs have already a strong defensive toolkit to deal with non-projectile-based build which they can also use to 100% against projectile-based builds. But on top of that DKs get a "f*** you ranged builds" ability that not only negates the majority of their damage but also reflects it. So projectile-based builds basically fight against twice or three times stronger defenses than melee / non-projectile-based builds. Sounds totally balanced and not OP.

So in summary:
1) Scales are not necessary so that DKs got a chance against range builds. DKs already got other tools for that - i.e. gap closers and superb CC, rendering opponents immobile almost the entire time.
2) Scales don't even fulfill that proclaimed purpose but instead provide a generic protection against all range builds, even though range builds are almost always force to fight in disadvantageous melee range.

Reflective Scales are OP and need to be addressed.
A possible solution would be to make them only reflect projectiles at a certain range. But then why should range build be forced into melee range where they are at a disadvantage as a solution for melee range being at a disadvantage at longe ranges? For sorcs the only really feasible solution would be to provide a reliable stun and to allow to disentagle the spammable from the CC.

Galarthor wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Plenty of ways

1) ice wall allows you to kite them pretty easily.
2) curse is un reflect-able as is force pulse
3) work with your team to drop wings. It only takes 4 ranged attacks - LA, curse, LA FP, 2 LA from your team, then frags/wrath, reach = dead dk.
4) If you MUST fight a dk in close range, use storm atro. Then heal up when they run away

Dont expect to be able to 1v1 good dks in a close range fight. You are being unrealistic playing to a dks strength and assuming you deserve to win.

Yeah, great idea! Why don't we all join huge zergs to kill individual players. That way your suggestied self-gimping of 1), 2), and 4) isn't really felt either.

Ice wall, Force Pulse and Storm Atro are all strong skills though?! How is that gimping yourself? Honestly, it looks like you're just refusing to make any build adjustments whatsoever and expecting ZOS to nerf other classes just to cater to your preferences. Good luck with that.

NBrookus wrote: »

I still fail to understand why Frags lost the stun. No one complained about it and it worked nicely with the sorc toolkit; yes it had a lot going on in one skill but being blockable, dodgeable and reflectable provided plenty of counters.

Yeah this was a terrible change, along with the Deep Fissure nerf. Like, nobody was complaining as these skills. The most annoying thing about their new design philosophy ("an ability shouldn't do burst dmg and CC at the same time") is that it's applied so inconsistently--skills like Incap and Dizzying Swing still do exactly what they nerfed frags for. And if this is an actual design principle ZOS wants to enforce across the board, then why is Master's destro even a thing?

Ugh ZOS -_-

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

You have options, if you don't want to use them then that's your choice. Personally I would drop the pet for force pulse/crushing shock and it will make you a better player not having to rely on a pet.

Yes that forces one playstyle for all magicka users, because of one single effect/ability that only DKs have. It's a broken mechanic, and there's no defending that. The only other ability that can force you to change your setup is cloak, but you can just run detection potions to counter that. There's nothing you can do about DK reflect, it needs removed and the ability changed.

You can block the reflect. Exactly as every other player (including a DK) has to block any reflected ability. Reflects can come from a DK's Wings, Defensive Posture, Defensive Stance, Spell Wall, both morphs of Eclipse, and the Armor of Nikolus.

As a matter of fact- a DK takes a risk every time he uses his Wings because Templars can cast Eclipse on the DK and spam them with attacks... which cause a double reflect to kill the DK.

On top of that- one of the only abilities that players can't do anything about is the Sorc's secondary execute. It's RNG based and a player doesn't know when it's coming or when to block it.

Let's not pretend wings isn't an amazing skill though. It straight up carries. Saying 2 seconds of snare immunity is nothing is a darn lie. One the question of would you prefer wings or shimmering. The answer used to be shimmering but with the addition of immunity I would 10000% take wings. Whenever I play my stamDK I cannot stop laughing at how much the skill advantages me in fights where my opponent has even 1 reflectable skill they rely upon.

HOWEVER the skill is perfect as is and really truly should not be touched. Just some class changes need to be made.

For magBlade cripple really should not be reflectable it is a ground cast ability. That alone would open up the fight just enough.

For sorc cage used to be so badly broken OP but they over nerfed the skill IMHO. I like the ability to react and dodge the skill. But the damage should be returned on break. If you get caught by the easily dodged stun then you should take damage. Because right now running that skill with how incredibly cramped sorc bars are ATM is simply ridiculous. You have to drop more damage skills. There's adapting and there's design flaws. They threw to much at sorcs at once and put them in quite the predicament. And the best solution by far is to run reach. Thus never replacing the lost stun options on frag and streak.

cpuScientist wrote: »

Let's not pretend wings isn't an amazing skill though. It straight up carries. Saying 2 seconds of snare immunity is nothing is a darn lie. One the question of would you prefer wings or shimmering. The answer used to be shimmering but with the addition of immunity I would 10000% take wings. Whenever I play my stamDK I cannot stop laughing at how much the skill advantages me in fights where my opponent has even 1 reflectable skill they rely upon.

HOWEVER the skill is perfect as is and really truly should not be touched. Just some class changes need to be made.

For magBlade cripple really should not be reflectable it is a ground cast ability. That alone would open up the fight just enough.

For sorc cage used to be so badly broken OP but they over nerfed the skill IMHO. I like the ability to react and dodge the skill. But the damage should be returned on break. If you get caught by the easily dodged stun then you should take damage. Because right now running that skill with how incredibly cramped sorc bars are ATM is simply ridiculous. You have to drop more damage skills. There's adapting and there's design flaws. They threw to much at sorcs at once and put them in quite the predicament. And the best solution by far is to run reach. Thus never replacing the lost stun options on frag and streak.

For the same effective cost (aka factoring in the mag regain) as wings you get 9 deflects, this includes birb, and major heroism. With wings you get 4 reflects and 2s snare removal. So I'd 100/100 take shimmering. By far the best skill for general use and heroism easily gives more, and more controllable offense than reflecting.

At the same time I'd take the near godmode ability of cloak 100/100 over both of those. Prevents nearly everything and puts your opponent at the disadvantage for attempting to counter it. Only 1/2 classes it is naturally countered by (i.e. without having to disadvantage yourself) vs scales' 7.5/8.

Yeah wings hard *** 2 classes but at the same time wings is by far the worse ability out of the ones mentioned. 2s snare immunity isn't really much, its not a hypermobile class which can make a getaway in that time especially with the ice wall and like meta. Its just a nice addition that takes wings from NU to OK since it has some minor use outside of reflecting

yodased wrote: »

This only applies to 1v1. Add in even one more person light attacking and those wings will not be up anywhere near 100%, unless that mag dk just turtles which does no damage.

Our good heals require melee distance as well.

Ranged characters are a bit hard countered by magdk, but there are magdk hard counters like stamblades.

Welcome to the world of magicka defensive tools. They all got an upper limit and are designed for 1v1 and are pretty much useless when outnumbered - unlike the main stamina defensive tools, i.e. dodge & block, which don't have an upper limit (and as a nice cherry on top are not affected by lag).

In fact, by reflecting any 4 projectiles you are still better off than somebody using shields b/c those won't take 4 hits to be negated. On top of that they also don't return a large amount of damage to the opponent. Your wings are not just a defensive tools but also an offensive one!

Dragon Blood does not require melee range and can pretty much heal you to full. In addition, DKs have the tools to ensure that the fight stays in melee range the entire time. No other class can lock down an opponent as effectively. Your stun even got an auto root so that your opponent has to spent 2 global cooldowns countering your 1 ability. Oh and let's not forget about all the snaring! And even if your opponent gets away for a sec, you can just gap close.

MDKs (or anything with wings for that matter) truely are hard counters for range builds. And the stamblades being their hard counters is not a valid arguement, as stamblades are hard counters to everything b/c they are ZOS favorit pet - they are even their own hard counters!!!

As for the question: Shimmering Shields VS. Reflective Scales:
Scales are the superior choice in most situations as they mitigate 1 additional projectile and on top of that return a lot of damage to the attacker and provide Stun immunity (via reflecting) and snare immunity!