NBs in high end BGs and what it means

ChunkyCat · December 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, that’s the issue but brawler groups are not the best groups, that’s the issue. A premade with two healers or a healer with the team having good survivability and group healing shreds everyone.

Those groups who dominate doing death matches and come out with no or one or two deaths for the team have zero brawlers.

They do though. A perfect blob of two stam-wardens, mag-warden and a healplar. This is a brawling group.

Yeah this is probably the ideal group. Maybe a Stam Sorc or mag sorc added in to help confirm the killing blows.

Royaji wrote: »

So the actual issue is: brawling teams with a healer outshine everything in BGs. To counter such a team (premade or just good players) you need a brawling team of your own since TTK is too long to burst them down one by one.

But not everybody wants to play a brawler. And if you are getting into BGs through groupfinder you are getting random teammates. They are not necessaily top players who only want to run in a blob and sweat their wins. There are other playstyles that are fun. And you are not the one to dictate what should be fun for them.

So it always comes down to the same advice - groupfinder is there to give you a group. But the moment you want to have a specific group composition - like a bunch of brawlers - you should be making your own group. Sorry, this is how groupfinder is setup in it's current form.

Your analysis is correct. But stamblades just don’t synergize well, and in the high MMR brackets, queueing in with a stamblade means in the majority of the cases that you’re dooming your team to a loss. So yeah, the stamblade can have fun, and they usually have the best k/d on their team because they can escape well.. but the rest of their team is fighting 3v4 and isn’t going to win that fight.

Thogard on point with his usual nerdful glory.

Edit:
Ovenface and players like him are the rare exception. Props where they’re due.

Zeromaz · December 2018

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I have to disagree with Thogard. I win a very good percentage of the BGs I play in on my NB. Ovenface, a stealth and cloak using bow blade was the winning element in multiple high MMR organized battlegrounds we played yesterday, and he wasn’t even part of the draft. NBs can be very effective despite being under represented at high mmr

We were playing without healers though. In a game with healers, ovenface might be less effective.

Thank you, thats the only nice thing anyone has said about me

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, that’s the issue but brawler groups are not the best groups, that’s the issue. A premade with two healers or a healer with the team having good survivability and group healing shreds everyone.

Those groups who dominate doing death matches and come out with no or one or two deaths for the team have zero brawlers.

They do though. A perfect blob of two stam-wardens, mag-warden and a healplar. This is a brawling group.

Yeah this is probably the ideal group. Maybe a Stam Sorc or mag sorc added in to help confirm the killing blows.

Royaji wrote: »

So the actual issue is: brawling teams with a healer outshine everything in BGs. To counter such a team (premade or just good players) you need a brawling team of your own since TTK is too long to burst them down one by one.

But not everybody wants to play a brawler. And if you are getting into BGs through groupfinder you are getting random teammates. They are not necessaily top players who only want to run in a blob and sweat their wins. There are other playstyles that are fun. And you are not the one to dictate what should be fun for them.

So it always comes down to the same advice - groupfinder is there to give you a group. But the moment you want to have a specific group composition - like a bunch of brawlers - you should be making your own group. Sorry, this is how groupfinder is setup in it's current form.

Your analysis is correct. But stamblades just don’t synergize well, and in the high MMR brackets, queueing in with a stamblade means in the majority of the cases that you’re dooming your team to a loss. So yeah, the stamblade can have fun, and they usually have the best k/d on their team because they can escape well.. but the rest of their team is fighting 3v4 and isn’t going to win that fight.

Thogard on point with his usual nerdful glory.

Edit:
Ovenface and players like him are the rare exception. Props where they’re due.

Ok... second!

Adenoma · December 2018

Ali Sabre dishes out kills in high MMR. That said, I would not want a NB in group comp for optimizing a small group for open world or for GvG (4 or 6 man). NBs specialize generally in single target pressure. They’re phenomenal AOE bombers with good group support like in Drac’s raids with proxy and harmony bombs, but small scale GvG may not perform best with harmony synergies - admittedly, I just don’t know.

Personally, any optimal GvG small scale group to me functions off of maintaining timed burst and AOE pressure. Classes like wardens, DKs, and Templars generally function better in these capacities - though there’s probably room for a magNB that can do AOE timed CC with tether to open up unblocked AOE pressure - although that may be better obtained through things like dawnvreaker and then maintain other utility.
Personally, I don’t value things like fear traps in that scenario because they don’t let you do things like time your CC and keep people immune when you need them open to take damage.

Thogard · December 2018

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I have to disagree with Thogard. I win a very good percentage of the BGs I play in on my NB. Ovenface, a stealth and cloak using bow blade was the winning element in multiple high MMR organized battlegrounds we played yesterday, and he wasn’t even part of the draft. NBs can be very effective despite being under represented at high mmr

We were playing without healers though. In a game with healers, ovenface might be less effective.

I respect your opinion and respect you immensely as a player, but I strongly recommend watching those matches again from my perspective. (Latest vod on my twitch). The match in question was lost because we’d engage team 2 and get side swiped by team 3, and as a team we were too slow to react to my calls to pull out (to avoid getting side swiped). Half way through I tried just tanking through it since we weren’t pulling out in time but that didn’t work either. I don’t think ovenface was a factor that match.

Ovenface was a good pug though because he doesn’t overcommit to fights: hes not someone who brawls and therefore isn’t someone vulnerable to getting sideswiped by the third team. But we as a team wiped when we got AJ’d. (Our pug was the most aggressively pushing pug of the 3, although he was a great player).

My opinion has changed though. He’s a great pug to have if you’re not playing a “stand your ground” style. If you play to win by going for kill steals and kiting rather than brawls and pushing, he’s probably the best pug on PC NA. But he’s only able to do that one style, he can’t alternate back and forth like most classes. Snipe builds require vamp for mobility, which means he’d have to rebuild his toon (not just swap out gear and skills) in order to brawl so that he can survive dawnbreakers.

@Zeromaz how does it feel to be the most talked about BG player on PC NA

I haven’t seen any bg streamers go a full stream without bringing you up lol.

Zeromaz · December 2018

Thogard wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I have to disagree with Thogard. I win a very good percentage of the BGs I play in on my NB. Ovenface, a stealth and cloak using bow blade was the winning element in multiple high MMR organized battlegrounds we played yesterday, and he wasn’t even part of the draft. NBs can be very effective despite being under represented at high mmr

We were playing without healers though. In a game with healers, ovenface might be less effective.

I respect your opinion and respect you immensely as a player, but I strongly recommend watching those matches again from my perspective. (Latest vod on my twitch). The match in question was lost because we’d engage team 2 and get side swiped by team 3, and as a team we were too slow to react to my calls to pull out (to avoid getting side swiped). Half way through I tried just tanking through it since we weren’t pulling out in time but that didn’t work either. I don’t think ovenface was a factor that match.

Ovenface was a good pug though because he doesn’t overcommit to fights: hes not someone who brawls and therefore isn’t someone vulnerable to getting sideswiped by the third team. But we as a team wiped when we got AJ’d. (Our pug was the most aggressively pushing pug of the 3, although he was a great player).

My opinion has changed though. He’s a great pug to have if you’re not playing a “stand your ground” style. If you play to win by going for kill steals and kiting rather than brawls and pushing, he’s probably the best pug on PC NA. But he’s only able to do that one style, he can’t alternate back and forth like most classes. Snipe builds require vamp for mobility, which means he’d have to rebuild his toon (not just swap out gear and skills) in order to brawl so that he can survive dawnbreakers.

@Zeromaz how does it feel to be the most talked about BG player on PC NA I haven’t seen any bg streamers go a full stream without bringing you up lol.

Hey bud, hope you’re well. Fun BGing yesterday with everyone.

I didn’t know I was a hot topic. I imagine its mostly rage talk but as you know, i’m not bothered by it.

I try to be as group friendly as i can (with a very selfish build) with knockbacks and snares. When i do steer away from my group, typically it will be to get behind the group my team is engaged with to KO a squishy or healer.

I may have to jump on a stream to see what all this Ovenface talk is about!

Thank you for the compliments

Koensol · December 2018

NuarBlack wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

The reason so many complain is because they’re losing unless their team mates play a certain play style, the reason people keep playing NBs with cloak is because it works if done well.

It should be obvious where the problem is but that won’t stop people from complaining. Basicly it’s people who are lucky to win complaining to those who have decent specs and are used to winning. Why listen to people who don’t play well and let them dominate team tactics?

The issue is a bunch of Stam melee who wear medium with little survivability needing their team mates to tank for them to be effective, nothing more.

No. We complain because we (1-3 players, depending on how many ganker NBs are in the group) get mowed down by a full team of four because our NB “teammates” cloak away and left us outnumbered. I don’t need anyone to “tank” for me, but taking on a full BG team alone in a no CP environment isn’t going to go well unless on a full tank spec.

Go to Cyrodiil if you want to solo gank. BGs are team-based PVP encounters, so if you’re unwilling to play as a team, GTFO and stop ruining matches for the other four classes in this game.

This. Sorcs who love to streak out of my healing range also *** me the hell off. Like, mate I'm trying to heal you and you are forcing me to overextend in order to keep your ass alive. As a result I get pressured, the sorc dies anyway and the rest of the team is sent to respawn. I have come to the point where as a healer I will straight up leave the team if this happens. I'd rather wait 15 mins than spend the entire BG getting left behind by solo players. That these people have the audacity to complain to others is even worse.

If a sorc has to streak away from the fight to avoid pressure, you are not doing your healer job well enough, I suggest l2p

Lmfao, so you mean that when they streak away the instant they take damage is my fault? Gtfo lol. These people just have no clue what group play means. If you want to streak, streak towards me so you can benefit from the group heals/buffs and help pressure the opposing team, not to the other side of the map like some kind of solo rambo.

I generally agree with you but a sorc who knows how to use streak offensively can be a major benefit to a team. Streaking into the other teams back lines can cause the other team to not know where to aim their beatles and dawn breakers. If the rest of the team pushes in behind the wake of chaos left by the streaking sorc you can usually isolate and get kills especially if the sorc drops a negate too.

Oh I fully agree. Clever use of streak to provide AoE cc is really useful. What I am talking about is the panic streaking to the other side of the map, leaving your team a man down. Like that dirty bastad @Waffennacht

HackTheMinotaur · December 2018

ChunkyCat wrote: »

High MMR BGs are just a slugfest of snares, roots, and aoes.

So, yeah, your average NB is worthless in all that.

This. Plus an over abundance of Magplars and Magwardens, whose ultimates very effectively counter both cloak and burst potential, means the typical nightblade burst builds are not effective.

However NB healer / tank builds are fun and quite good at supporting a solid team. I played one myself for a while and it was one of my favorite builds for BGs. I’ll throw in the link if anyone is interested:

https://youtu.be/dDNMKsEguS4

MaxJrFTW · December 2018

If you're stam, it means you're useless and bring absolutely nothing to your team. If you're mag, it means you should get creative and use support builds, instead of the typical glass cannon ganker that also brings nothing to their team.

Datthaw · December 2018

@Adenoma I have run a few different variations on heavy magnb and all of them just seemed to lack the damage for me at the time.
The one that came the closest to being viable for my playstyle was an odd setup of 5x spinners, 5x wyrd tree back bar resto, master lightning front bar with clench. This freed up spammable and cc I to 1 skill and allowed me to stack another hot in there since I'm always struggling with bar space.

The other setup I really enjoyed and came close was destro/2h, shackle, CA, TK, vma resto. This build was really mobile in cyro, and could pack a decent punch but it's hate revolving around pit chuging it's the end.

My experience with armor master, which is what I'm actually run in atm is not that good. I could be just trying the wrong playstyle for it but I'm squish. Atm for this build I'm running 5-1-1 L, armor master, destro master, zaan, inferno/ice. (Did I mention I don't like meta? Lol) front bar is harness, mercy, fear, swallow soul, ele drain, incap. Back bar is harness, dark cloak, shade, wall of ele, cripple, consuming dark. I am really still messing with this setup so it changes alot

Urvoth · December 2018

Adenoma wrote: »

Ali Sabre dishes out kills in high MMR. That said, I would not want a NB in group comp for optimizing a small group for open world or for GvG (4 or 6 man). NBs specialize generally in single target pressure. They’re phenomenal AOE bombers with good group support like in Drac’s raids with proxy and harmony bombs, but small scale GvG may not perform best with harmony synergies - admittedly, I just don’t know.

Personally, any optimal GvG small scale group to me functions off of maintaining timed burst and AOE pressure. Classes like wardens, DKs, and Templars generally function better in these capacities - though there’s probably room for a magNB that can do AOE timed CC with tether to open up unblocked AOE pressure - although that may be better obtained through things like dawnvreaker and then maintain other utility.
Personally, I don’t value things like fear traps in that scenario because they don’t let you do things like time your CC and keep people immune when you need them open to take damage.

Ali Sabre is solid because he plays alongside the team, has a bit more survivability than typical nightblades, and doesn't feed. The problem is the NBs that play like solo gankers or snipers (albeit ovenface somehow makes this work) since they leave their team to die and a lot of them are free kills.

Aurielle · December 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

@Adenoma I have run a few different variations on heavy magnb and all of them just seemed to lack the damage for me at the time.
The one that came the closest to being viable for my playstyle was an odd setup of 5x spinners, 5x wyrd tree back bar resto, master lightning front bar with clench. This freed up spammable and cc I to 1 skill and allowed me to stack another hot in there since I'm always struggling with bar space.

The other setup I really enjoyed and came close was destro/2h, shackle, CA, TK, vma resto. This build was really mobile in cyro, and could pack a decent punch but it's hate revolving around pit chuging it's the end.

My experience with armor master, which is what I'm actually run in atm is not that good. I could be just trying the wrong playstyle for it but I'm squish. Atm for this build I'm running 5-1-1 L, armor master, destro master, zaan, inferno/ice. (Did I mention I don't like meta? Lol) front bar is harness, mercy, fear, swallow soul, ele drain, incap. Back bar is harness, dark cloak, shade, wall of ele, cripple, consuming dark. I am really still messing with this setup so it changes alot

I actually really like Armor Master on my 5L/1H/1M magblade. Since you’re switching it up a bit, consider giving my setup (which I think of as the anti-ganker build) a try:

Front Bar (Inferno): Cripple, Impale, Force Pulse, Merciless, Inner Light (or the other morph, if you’re okay with having less magicka and you want the stun from stealth protection), Soul Harvest

Back Bar (Resto): Structured Entropy, Dark Shades, Harness Magicka, Piercing Mark, Dark Cloak, Soul Siphon

5 Armor Master, 5 Necropotence, 2 Skoria (or 2 TK, if group heals are lacking). Currently, Armor Master is double-barred, though you would obviously benefit more from, say, Asylum destro on your front bar (I’ve just been too lazy to farm for it — deconned my old ones way back when). You obviously want to keep Dark Shades up all the time for the Necro 5 piece bonus. I find Necropotence makes up quite a bit for the damage and sustain hit you take with Armor Master. Also, by having Structured Entropy on your back bar, you get a bigger heal from Dark Cloak. When you need to go completely defensive, block-casting Harness + Dark Cloak until your Soul Siphon is up is pretty darn tanky. I’m a vamp too, which adds even more defensiveness to the combo.

Piercing Mark obviously lacks the resource return of Elemental Drain, but the heal is nice and it’s fun irritating would be gankers. Force Pulse is a good spammable, given that BGs are full of wings-spamming DKs. Soul Siphon is also, hands down, one of the best healing ultimates in the game. I’ve saved so many inevitable group wipes with it.

Kartalin · December 2018

I have a silly little tanky templar snare build I’m working on gathering video for in BGs right now. If I had a team of 3 gankblades that would actually float around me and do their thing while I lock people down I think it could be a trolltastic time. But not in a high mmr match, would not work there against a coordinated group.

Slack · December 2018

Aurielle wrote: »

pzschrek wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

P.S. Another thing I’ve figured out, as soon as you can get away from your team... Ignore group chat for the most part, those who whine most are usually the worst players.

I don’t want anyone like this on my team. Ever.

Sounds like you have an awful lot to “ignore” in group chat, son. And based on your posts, with very good reason.

It’s to the point now where I make a mental note of every yolo solo NB...

Glad I am not the only one on that

.
The reason, why people are on the list may be forgotten, but not their names.

digitallego · December 2018

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Recently I was watching an ESO stream. The streamer stated that NBs aren’t viable in high end BGs and his recommendation to a viewer(who was a NB in the same match as the streamer in a BG) was to play a “real class”.

My question to the community is are NBs viable in high MMR BG matches? Does playing a NB in high MMR BGs hurt ones team? Are other classes better designed for these types of matches? Would choosing a class, like for instance a stam warden bring more to a group in terms of utility and dps than a NB?

In medium armor - no.

digitallego · December 2018

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I’m playing as an archer/brawler hybrid btw. Not your typical sneaky NB that is squishy and sneaks around.

You have some mistake. If you play an archer, this means that you often finish off after another player and stand behind your team

Thogard · December 2018

digitallego wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I’m playing as an archer/brawler hybrid btw. Not your typical sneaky NB that is squishy and sneaks around.

You have some mistake. If you play an archer, this means that you often finish off after another player and stand behind your team

He doesn’t. If anything, he pushes too far forwards

Zeromaz · December 2018

I think most NBs just don’t have the right combination of abilities to compete at higher MMRs. I don’t see many NBs when I play BGs.

I don’t run Momentum or Vigor, and have zero crit resists but I manage to do alright and I strongly believe its due to skills I have on my hotbars.

HEBREWHAMMERRR · December 2018

I haven’t played in about 2 months, that being said, high end BGs are tough for a magblade. I consider myself a pretty formidable opponent and am very knowledgeable of my class. As someone earlier stated the high end MMR are extremely tanky premades and nightblades, while great individually, don’t bring a ton more to the table for this type of fighting. The nerf to refreshing path wasn’t very poor as this surprisingly drew a large part of my damage in these long, stacked up fights, while also providing decent healing support. The sustain nerf to bow was also a blow to BGs where your resource management can really be tested. All in all, I’d love to come back to this game but the changes ZOS has made have watered down the pvp fighting, drastically lowered the skill ceiling and shown they are simply not capable of balancing pvp and PvE together.

Iskiab · December 2018

I don’t know, when fighting tanky premades as a magblade I don’t see myself as the issue. It just means the ttk goes up and assisting becomes more important.

A magblade survives well against tanky premades. The problem still goes back to kamikaze melee who’s only tactic is to burst down opponents. That’s why people run tanky premades, if they can survive the burst then the people with no survivability in their builds melt. They’d lose either way but somehow they’ve rationalized that it’s the NB’s fault because they didn’t die with them.

Zeromaz · December 2018

Iskiab wrote: »

I don’t know, when fighting tanky premades as a magblade I don’t see myself as the issue. It just means the ttk goes up and assisting becomes more important.

A magblade survives well against tanky premades. The problem still goes back to kamikaze melee who’s only tactic is to burst down opponents. That’s why people run tanky premades, if they can survive the burst then the people with no survivability in their builds melt. They’d lose either way but somehow they’ve rationalized that it’s the NB’s fault because they didn’t die with them.

So we play the important role of scapegoat..... right..? Right?! We must feel important somehow... give us a role! I’ll take scapegoat

Iskiab · December 2018

Basicly yea. Stealth always attracts hate (which is part of the fun), but having a body there to take more damage only really matters if people aren’t assisting and against poor players.

mav1234 · December 2018

Zeromaz wrote: »

I think most NBs just don’t have the right combination of abilities to compete at higher MMRs. I don’t see many NBs when I play BGs.

I don’t run Momentum or Vigor, and have zero crit resists but I manage to do alright and I strongly believe its due to skills I have on my hotbars.

This thread has made me very curious about your build and skill choice! Hopefully will run into you in BGs in the future.

Zeromaz · December 2018

mav1234 wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

I think most NBs just don’t have the right combination of abilities to compete at higher MMRs. I don’t see many NBs when I play BGs.

I don’t run Momentum or Vigor, and have zero crit resists but I manage to do alright and I strongly believe its due to skills I have on my hotbars.

This thread has made me very curious about your build and skill choice! Hopefully will run into you in BGs in the future.

I actually made a post to get an idea if people were interested here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/450904/want-a-bg-pvp-bow-bow-guide#latest

Vanzen · December 2018

Bosmer.

Warrior Mundus

5M/1L/1H

Shackle/Sload/Domi/Molag.

Insane stats. Infinite sustain. Infinite cloaking. 4k+ weap power. In no cp ...

Come and tell me that NB is not outrageously overpowered in BG.

Thogard · December 2018

Zeromaz wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

I think most NBs just don’t have the right combination of abilities to compete at higher MMRs. I don’t see many NBs when I play BGs.

I don’t run Momentum or Vigor, and have zero crit resists but I manage to do alright and I strongly believe its due to skills I have on my hotbars.

This thread has made me very curious about your build and skill choice! Hopefully will run into you in BGs in the future.

I actually made a post to get an idea if people were interested here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/450904/want-a-bg-pvp-bow-bow-guide#latest

I wish you weren’t a nice person so that I could go back to hating you just based on your build choices.

@mursie is widely regarded as the grumpiest and most pessimistic streamer. Look at his facial reaction when he got his first real snipe gank

https://clips.twitch.tv/WanderingShinySwanAMPEnergy

Zeromaz · December 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

I think most NBs just don’t have the right combination of abilities to compete at higher MMRs. I don’t see many NBs when I play BGs.

I don’t run Momentum or Vigor, and have zero crit resists but I manage to do alright and I strongly believe its due to skills I have on my hotbars.

This thread has made me very curious about your build and skill choice! Hopefully will run into you in BGs in the future.

I actually made a post to get an idea if people were interested here

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/450904/want-a-bg-pvp-bow-bow-guide#latest

I wish you weren’t a nice person so that I could go back to hating you just based on your build choices.

@mursie is widely regarded as the grumpiest and most pessimistic streamer. Look at his facial reaction when he got his first real snipe gank

https://clips.twitch.tv/WanderingShinySwanAMPEnergy

Aaaah wouldn’t life be easier if we just hated each other? Sadly, i think we’re beyond that now.

I believe most people who have interactions with me feel as if i’m a supurb meanie dingie. I’m cold towards people i don’t know because most humans are jagweeds and i’d rather not waste my time. However... i warm up nicely once you prove me wrong. Which you did exactly that. Respek!

Edit: lol just watched the clip. God i love that video. His expression went from one extreme to the other in a quarter second. Pure joy!

NightAngel690 · January 2019

Nbs are viable; however, with the amount of premade cancer groups growing more cancerous, it’s very hard to play unless you know how to brawl. You tend to notice that a lot of the nbs in bgs are usually just trolls who want to get easy videos but they don’t really do much in terms of helping to win the match.