NBs in high end BGs and what it means

Fur_like_snow

Recently I was watching an ESO stream. The streamer stated that NBs aren’t viable in high end BGs and his recommendation to a viewer(who was a NB in the same match as the streamer in a BG) was to play a “real class”.

My question to the community is are NBs viable in high MMR BG matches? Does playing a NB in high MMR BGs hurt ones team? Are other classes better designed for these types of matches? Would choosing a class, like for instance a stam warden bring more to a group in terms of utility and dps than a NB?

dazee

what is a high MMR BG? last I checked the only BGs in the game are non CP level 50 and pre level 50

Fur_like_snow

My understanding of what high MMR means is a character will accumulate ranking simply by participating in BG matches win or lose. Over time this rank adds up where the match making system will then attempt to pair that player up with other players of similar MMR. Unlike a ladder system where winning or losing increases or decrease rank in ESO it is gained by playing matches and currently it’s not possible to lower or reset the ranking.

Vermethys

They are viable without a doubt, though many NBs hurt the team because they spend the entire match in stealth or just keep spamming Snipe from a safe distance. Honestly, I always find myself groaning once I see at least two NBs on my team -- I know I'm going to be a glowing target then. But, they are very effective in game modes like Crazy King or Capture the Relic.

CatchMeTrolling

Any class is viable in the right hands, it’s when premades come into play when things become an issue. From my experience, most people queue solo or two man.

The only bad nb is one that sits in cloak because your team automatically becomes outnumbered.

Aurielle

NBs are viable in high MMR BGs if they eschew the ganker archetype. The problem with most NBs is that they’re built as glass cannons and stealth away at the first hint of trouble. NBs who do not use stealth (or use it offensively — i.e. specifically to land critical hits) and stick with the team are absolutely viable.

I’ve been experimenting with a no-cloak magNB recently and have been having considerable success. Funnily enough, people do not seem to realize that some NBs don’t use stealth, and waste precious resources trying to “reveal” me. I’m using a few NB skill morphs that are seldom used and it’s confusing the people I regularly play against. This is why being able to build for yourself and not copypasta some YT streamer is so important.

Thogard

LOL was this me? It sounds like something I’d say.

When a team capable of winning a match brings a stamblade to a GvG tournament I shall recant! But until then, I’ll stick with my original opinion - NBs are overpowered against unorganized opponents and underpowered against organized opponents.

Those two don’t cancel out to make NBs balanced.. it just means they’re unbalanced on both sides of the spectrum.

Slack

A NB simply adds nothing to a group, and the way, most people play it, especially stamblades, makes you one less when the fight starts.
Can't recount how many BGs I have already enjoyed fighting 3vs4vs4, because that 1 shitblade in my team never stayed with group and rather waited to gank the spawns

Adenoma

Best NB role that can be played for high MMR is a HOT build with gossamer and likely something like overwhelming surge for offense or spec more defense and just run transmutation with a BR resto. You’d get to pump out resto ult/soul siphon and have excellent healing while putting out decent DPS.

I’m a big fan for premades (although I’m having a hard time assembling it for GvG sort of stuff) of doing setups with overlapping rapid regenerations and then using wall of elements with a healer on a charged ice wall to get a huge amount of ground AOE pressure. @Thogard has alluded to this sort of setup; although his was in a GvG context for a stamina group where they were using caltrops and vigor to perform the same roles. I just prefer a lot of the utility built into magicka classes over stamina.

Xvorg

Interesting topic. I've never trid BG, but it seems a great place for Sap Tanks

Kikke

NBs are viable as long as you play brawler instead of assasin. Tho 99% of all NBs are 100% addicted to their cloak

Bashev

Mag NB healers are probably the best ones. But they are so rare.
The problem is that most stam NBs has zero teamplay.

Thogard

Here was what I said last night

https://clips.twitch.tv/LitigiousOptimisticGiraffeKappaClaus

I feel bad about it but jinnx is cool and he knows I play my own bow stamblade build in BGs every Tuesday :P

sabresandiego_ESO

We played a bunch of organized high end matches last night and I felt very effective on my NB. I consistently got one of the highest damage totals and assists from high single target damage; and generally lower deaths, except for one game, due to being able to teleport away with shade. My team won most of the time and I went from being nearly the last one picked due to my class in the first game, to being a mid tier pick after healers and wardens in the latter games.

I’m playing as an archer/brawler hybrid btw. Not your typical sneaky NB that is squishy and sneaks around.

technohic

It's not just battlegrounds. I find when I'm roaming by myself and therefore pretty much playing selfishly in Cyrodiil; my NB can brutalize someone. If I group up with anyone and try to contribute; its practically a waste when running into other groups. I could build a no cloak, brawler type to be out in the open, but the single target burst focus is wasted if a group knows to heal my target and pin me down.

Really need to tone some things down then buff sap and other morphs to be good again. The sap tanks have been gone way too long

sabresandiego_ESO

The main thing a NB brings to a group is single target pressure. This is more valuable to a group than most people realize.

Urvoth

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The main thing a NB brings to a group is single target pressure. This is more valuable to a group than most people realize.

True, but other classes do that better and with more flexibility.

sabresandiego_ESO

The only other class that brings comparable single target pressure as a NB is a mag Sorc

thankyourat

I've made this argument for years nightblades have the best passives and are a well thought out class but for the past year or so it's never been as strong as the forums make it out to be. Once you get to a certain skill level even 1v1 they become less of a problem. Where stamblades have been strong is 1v1 vs other medium armor stam builds. (These are usually the main people who think that stamblades are op as well) while you can see a pretty distinct advantage in these match ups that advantage disappears for medium stamblade vs heavy armor stam.

The thing nightblades shine at are 1v1s vs squishy opponents which is pretty useless in bgs. For bgs and viable I think it comes down to what do you consider viable. Are there alot of better options than nightblades in bgs? Yes. Are nightblades still playable in bgs? Yes. You will however have problems against well built teams be it premade or just luck. You just don't bring anything to a team that another class couldn't do better. As well as there are usually must pick classes like Warden and Templar. Most bg matches though you can play a nightblade and still have a good time

ChunkyCat

High MMR BGs are just a slugfest of snares, roots, and aoes.

So, yeah, your average NB is worthless in all that.

Waffennacht

I like an NB with my tank. I'll engage and hopefully the NB drops some major hurt on said opponent when they aren't looking

sabresandiego_ESO

Healers of any class (but ideally not more than one per team) and mag wardens in general are exceptionally good in battlegrounds. I feel that all the classes are fairly well balanced after that including nightblades but yes you do see less nbs at high mmrs. In high mmr bgs you see lots of wardens and dks, some Templar’s and sorcs, and fewer nbs

FakeFox

"Nightblade" describes no specific role or playstyle, so you can't give a reasonable answer to that. There are builds and playstyles for Nightblades that work very well in most meta teams, but you can make pretty much anything work depending on the team you play with. The typical stealth burst playstyle for the most part does not work against premades as those usually play very tanky and you can't solo burst anybody, however it can still work if you build a whole team around it. Generally ESOs PvP balancing is not very competitive and whoever cheeses the **** out of the other team first usually wins in premade BGs and this barely comes down to classes but to which team can fit more unbalanced cancer in their comp.

technohic

Id actually be curious about a brawler bladed in heavy, maybe even replacing cloak for the heal and making use of fear and shadow image for maims. I kind of played with the idea a bit on my stamblade and now thing I want to see a magblade similarly

brandonv516

Magblade is worse off right now than Stamblade solo in BGs but plays better as a teammate in high MMR matches.

Koensol

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The main thing a NB brings to a group is single target pressure. This is more valuable to a group than most people realize.

Not just that if you ask me. There are some really useful tools in the NB arsenal that people just never use for some reason, like dark shades, manifestation of terror and bolstering darkness and the powerful class heals. I play my magblade as a tanky healer/support bot and utilize said skills and see it offer a lot to the group.

Dark shades provide AoE minor maim to the group with very high uptime, especially in deathmatch where people are clumped together and are brawling. It also chases cloaked nbs

Manifestation of terror is by far the superior fear morph for group play. It fears up to 6 targets with a delay so it serves 2 great uses. You can utilize it to great effect when you are retreating, for example in cap the flag or chaosball.
Another place where it shines is when you put 2 traps into a clumped group as you are about to drop your ults. I prefer this to time stop because people dont see it coming. I try to keep the traps up 100% of the time which serves as a great resource drain.

Bolstering darkness is a great, but rarely used ult. Got some great buffs in summerset patch, where the major protection buff lingers for the full 18 sec duration on people even after they leave the area. See an opposing team coming in for an ult dump? Drop this on your group together with dark shades for some massive dmg reduction over a prolonged time and a massive snare. It even offers a neat and strong synergy when people go below 50% health that will heal them back up quickly and give them 70% movement speed.

Apart from this you have the strongest single target burst heal and AoE burst heal ultimate in the game.

Nightblade isn't the most group oriented class, but there is a lot to offer to the group as a nightblade, as long as you choose to abandon the solo player mindset that we see in 95% of nightblades in game. Just slotting one or two of these tools already makes you a lot more valuable to your team.

Aurielle

Koensol wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The main thing a NB brings to a group is single target pressure. This is more valuable to a group than most people realize.

Not just that if you ask me. There are some really useful tools in the NB arsenal that people just never use for some reason, like dark shades, manifestation of terror and bolstering darkness and the powerful class heals. I play my magblade as a tanky healer/support bot and utilize said skills and see it offer a lot to the group.

Dark shades provide AoE minor maim to the group with very high uptime, especially in deathmatch where people are clumped together and are brawling. It also chases cloaked nbs

Manifestation of terror is by far the superior fear morph for group play. It fears up to 6 targets with a delay so it serves 2 great uses. You can utilize it to great effect when you are retreating, for example in cap the flag or chaosball.
Another place where it shines is when you put 2 traps into a clumped group as you are about to drop your ults. I prefer this to time stop because people dont see it coming. I try to keep the traps up 100% of the time which serves as a great resource drain.

Bolstering darkness is a great, but rarely used ult. Got some great buffs in summerset patch, where the major protection buff lingers for the full 18 sec duration on people even after they leave the area. See an opposing team coming in for an ult dump? Drop this on your group together with dark shades for some massive dmg reduction over a prolonged time and a massive snare. It even offers a neat and strong synergy when people go below 50% health that will heal them back up quickly and give them 70% movement speed.

Apart from this you have the strongest single target burst heal and AoE burst heal ultimate in the game.

Nightblade isn't the most group oriented class, but there is a lot to offer to the group as a nightblade, as long as you choose to abandon the solo player mindset that we see in 95% of nightblades in game. Just slotting one or two of these tools already makes you a lot more valuable to your team.

I use Dark Shades on my NB. I’m wearing Necropotence, too, so it gives me a large magicka pool. Excellent, very underused skill.

Also: Soul Siphon is quite possibly the best healing ultimate in the game. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve saved allies from what would have almost certainly been a group wipe since I started slotting it.

Also also: most people don’t know this, but you don’t need a large health pool to make Dark Cloak effective. Use it proactively (like people do with Vigor). It also procs Troll King when you get into trouble!

Seriously, building a no-stealth, group-oriented magNB has restored to me what Murkmire took away from my sorc: the ability to apply a lot of burst offensive pressure while having a lot of defense. It also has more group utility than my sorc ever did.

Iskiab

I play a magblade in the context of the OP’s post. How effective I am depends on my team mates. I’m a major and have gone 23-1 in a death match recently on the high end, on the low end I’ll have even kvd in a loss.

The issue is certain specs (especially warden) depend on your team mates to play a certain way to be effective and really it’s their specs that are the issue. 4 NBs in a death match and we’ll do okay, a mix of NBs and others and it’s more difficult.

When I’m at my best my team mates are tanking the other team and I’m sniping their rdps and healers. At my worst you get a bunch of teammates who charge into melee and die repeatedly so I’m forced to fight the entire other team solo. Then those same kamikaze players whine that they’re dying charging in because people are fighting back instead of you tanking.

Mag blades seem a little on the weak side but such is the way of MMOs with how classes get buffed and nerfed, no reason to stop playing one. My team will only come in third maybe 1/20 matches so doing the daily is still easy.

Iskiab

P.S. Another thing I’ve figured out, as soon as you can get away from your team. You should position yourself behind or away from team mates fighting the same targets. Enemies will throw too many aoes negating your stealth if you group up. Ignore group chat for the most part, those who whine most are usually the worst players.

Aurielle

Iskiab wrote: »

I play a magblade in the context of the OP’s post. How effective I am depends on my team mates. I’m a major and have gone 23-1 in a death match recently on the high end, on the low end I’ll have even kvd in a loss.

The issue is certain specs (especially warden) depend on your team mates to play a certain way to be effective and really it’s their specs that are the issue. 4 NBs in a death match and we’ll do okay, a mix of NBs and others and it’s more difficult.

When I’m at my best my team mates are tanking the other team and I’m sniping their rdps and healers. At my worst you get a bunch of teammates who charge into melee and die repeatedly so I’m forced to fight the entire other team solo. Then those same kamikaze players whine that they’re dying charging in because people are fighting back instead of you tanking.

Mag blades seem a little on the weak side but such is the way of MMOs with how classes get buffed and nerfed, no reason to stop playing one. My team will only come in third maybe 1/20 matches so doing the daily is still easy.

LOL, imagine that! People in team-based PVP build with group support in mind! Their builds aren’t the problem: the yolo solo stealth NBs who abandon their teammates at the first sign of trouble without doing anything to help them out are the problem.

eliisra

It obviously depends on group composition. If you have a team with multiple coordinated good gankblades, it's absolute pwnage in PvP.

If you have a team with mixed builds and classes, it's maybe not the most useful to have a snipeblade in the group. Especially not if it's the type of guy that leaves you to die and hides most of the fight.

I can't even begin to express how much i hate being teamed with terrible snipeblades if I'm healing lol. I can't do much for them, since not even range or hiding god knows where. They can't do much to help me either, since they're normally to squishy to peel in mele range and in addition to that, there's no reason for them to even do it. They wont get more kills by saving me lol. So I just get gangbanged all alone and die

I think brawler type stamblades are crazy good in teams though.