Elitism vs. Enjoying the game

MilwaukeeScott · December 2018

Why is being a good player equate to elitism?

Why do you assume good players are not having fun?

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

Yeah, people give bad advice all the time. Unless you’re pushing scores, wear whatever is fun for you, there’s only a few % difference in DPS between most damage sets. And in your example, what did they expect the guy to wear while he farmed HRC? Hundings is a great starter set to wear while obtaining better gear.

Raudgrani · December 2018

Chicharron wrote: »

For the title it would seem that the elitists do not enjoy the game, but i think that everyone enjoys the game in their own way.

I do not have any respect for elitists, i do not even consider them human beings, but i think if they play TESO it is because in a very twisted way they enjoy it.

Quite a few of them do I guess. But even so, you even see and hear some very well known players (youtubers) say things like how they were always angry and irritated, basically because of the game - and thought about leaving the game, but then settled with the decision to just play for fun, and not to chase scores, farm gear all the time and improve DPS and such.

Many people take that too seriously, and forgot we are here to have fun, not just to compete. If you feel different, I hope you don't try to impose that mentality in newcomers - so that this is all they see. Most of them don't start to play to be #1 on leaderboards, but because they like the Elder Scrolls world itself. It's sad if they get the idea that this is what it's all about. "Get meta BIS gear, or your time spent here is without meaning!".
You can sadly enough see this growing mentality reflected in guild store too these days, it's pretty hard to actually find pieces of "non meta" gear now, or at least it's way harder than it used to be. You have the same number of items, but from like 4-5 different sets really.

PrayingSeraph · December 2018

I avoid trial guilds like the plague. Quite literally every one I have joined before were filled with elitists, constantly giving "advice" to most other players even outside trials themselves

I have no issue whatsoever with people wanting to meta, but it does annoy me a bit that there is this atmosphere where players feel the *need* to meta.

Like seriously, trials are just one segment of ESO...

Facefister · December 2018

Good performance =/= meta, people often tend to confuse these two with each other.

Noone is against you enjoying the game but when you're in a group environment and your personal "enjoyment" drags down the entire group then I would ask myself again who is the actual "elitist" here.

Raudgrani · December 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Good performance =/= meta, people often tend to confuse these two with each other.

Noone is against you enjoying the game but when you're in a group environment and your personal "enjoyment" drags down the entire group then I would ask myself again who is the actual "elitist" here.

Yes. But there must be some kind of middle way between totalitarian fascistoid elitism, and complete "snowflakeism" - where you demand to join a vet trial run wearing blue quality Mad Tinkerer and Ashen Grip gear
My main DD (StamNB) is wearing Relequen, Briarheart (better DPS than Ravager for me now), Velidreth and VMA bow. I was even running with Automaton, Spriggan and VMA daggers/bow previously. Not same numbers as now, but I didn't need anyone to carry me.
Sure, I would MAYBE pull 1-2k more DPS it I switched to Advancing Yokeda, but I got ONE gold ring of AY, and nothing else - not even a lousy old blue neck or ring, and no weapons whatsoever (and remember here: you need the DAGGERS for AY to outperform some other alternatives); and I am positively NOT going to start farming some AY to please someone else. I simply won't. If someone give these things to me, sure - but I don't need anyone to tell me to do it. If that's a demand, they can surely find someone else better at bending to the will of others. I won't do that to please others.

Oathunbound · December 2018

I think there is a perception problem that applys to people seeing someone as being a elitest jerk when they are trying to offer advise that they think would be helpful. I would consider myself a meta chaser when it comes to gear and getting a good rotation for DPS but I would never force my way of thinking on someone who doesn't want it. However if someone asked for my advise I would say that they would ultimately go for the best sets possible but also offer sets they can wear now that will fit their role in the meantime. It just sucks when you are trying to be helpful but when you ask "do you know what you're doing?" It is more likely taken as a criticism rather then an olive branch to offer advise.

zaria · December 2018

Tasear wrote: »

First there's a difference between elite and elistism. The elite will advise something fitting person's need, while elistist will push their way.

On topic, how to people get knowledge without be deemed? Do people need to join guilds? How to people learn to get better in game as a solo player?

You want an guild or multiple asap, you want some social and helpful ones primarily you don't need multiple trading guilds as an new player.
FB is the second worse possible source for builds. Its designed to be an e-pen wagging arena.
Asking the max cp guy who is struggling in an delve for builds is worse.
Zone chat is better, asking people in an decent pug is way better, guilds is even better. I say going here is the best option.

Telling an cp160 to farm Yokeda, Relequen and Velidreth is idiotic, vMA is insane. he need an cheap and easy cp160 set to replace the leveling one. Now you replace either the crafted or overland with an dungeon set, perhaps an better overland.
you also get your first monster set. the stamina trial set I would prioritize would be VO as it works very well in pugs as "healer" rarely provide resources on cooldown

its also idiotic fun overland as in rapid on cooldown, yes its pointless on dummy and is weak on long parses on hard bosses with no adds.

At this level you can start looking for an bis set, note that your dps should be above 30k or you can just do something else like clearing vet dlc dungeons, you also have vMA who require an different build.

Finally you reach endgame.
Now that? note that this is an issue any Khajitt kitten has to face.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/6769308672/h98C8FAC0/

Tasear · December 2018

zaria wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

First there's a difference between elite and elistism. The elite will advise something fitting person's need, while elistist will push their way.

On topic, how to people get knowledge without be deemed? Do people need to join guilds? How to people learn to get better in game as a solo player?

You want an guild or multiple asap, you want some social and helpful ones primarily you don't need multiple trading guilds as an new player.
FB is the second worse possible source for builds. Its designed to be an e-pen wagging arena.
Asking the max cp guy who is struggling in an delve for builds is worse.
Zone chat is better, asking people in an decent pug is way better, guilds is even better. I say going here is the best option.

Telling an cp160 to farm Yokeda, Relequen and Velidreth is idiotic, vMA is insane. he need an cheap and easy cp160 set to replace the leveling one. Now you replace either the crafted or overland with an dungeon set, perhaps an better overland.
you also get your first monster set. the stamina trial set I would prioritize would be VO as it works very well in pugs as "healer" rarely provide resources on cooldown
its also idiotic fun overland as in rapid on cooldown, yes its pointless on dummy and is weak on long parses on hard bosses with no adds.

At this level you can start looking for an bis set, note that your dps should be above 30k or you can just do something else like clearing vet dlc dungeons, you also have vMA who require an different build.

Finally you reach endgame.
Now that? note that this is an issue any Khajitt kitten has to face.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/6769308672/h98C8FAC0/

That picture is priceless. 10/10 meme

Tasear · December 2018

Oathunbound wrote: »

I think there is a perception problem that applys to people seeing someone as being a elitest jerk when they are trying to offer advise that they think would be helpful. I would consider myself a meta chaser when it comes to gear and getting a good rotation for DPS but I would never force my way of thinking on someone who doesn't want it. However if someone asked for my advise I would say that they would ultimately go for the best sets possible but also offer sets they can wear now that will fit their role in the meantime. It just sucks when you are trying to be helpful but when you ask "do you know what you're doing?" It is more likely taken as a criticism rather then an olive branch to offer advise.

I agree about this too. Like it's sad how the world first posts always get ridicule or with hate feeled posts. They are community's elite who push human the limits the game can offer. But I usually find people associate them with a different group of people the elistists which isn't necessarily fair.

Tigerseye · December 2018

Yeah, I totally get what you mean, OP.

My personal point of view is that this game is not worth worrying about, from a serious point of view.

I, eventually, got sucked into all that, with WoW.

I even raided HC (top level of raids, at that time), in the end.

However, for all its faults (and there are many), there was some kind of logical, step-by-step, gear progression in WoW, at that time.

Dungeons>LFR>"Real" Raids (of each difficulty).

So, I was tempted to engage in the process, step by step.

Here, it just feels random, disjointed, awkward, pointless and quite frankly, kind of confusing, unless you make a point of researching both the progression path and the fotm gear sets and set combinations far more than should ever, ever, ever (yeah, three evers...) be necessary.

Not only that, but end game is just not appealing, or tempting, in the same way.

There is no real learning curve, or feeling of moving, logically, from one stage to another, smoothly.

It, therefore, doesn't draw me in.

Apparently, I need that step-by-step, logical, process to feel the need to bother.

Also, I find physically moving in this game a pain (literally - RSI); so, again, it reduces my will to try to do anything too challenging, or that might go on for hours, without end.

Even though, actually, the repetitive movements needed for farming hurt far more than the ones needed for doing dungeons, for some reason.

In general, I'm drawn far more to housing, fashion, pets and stuff and keep myself ticking over, mainly, with daily quests.

Once I get bored with that and run out of houses to decorate (assuming nothing is added to both the fun and functionality of housing), I may have to move on, unless things here change fairly radically.

I don't even really bother running vet dungeons, despite being max CP - the fact that someone, who bothered to raid in WoW (albeit, once LFR existed), doesn't bother with anything much here, should tell you that something must be very wrong.

At this point, I far prefer the GW2 gearing process (even though that game has quite a few other, non-related, issues) - which is, basically, gear once at max level and then forget about it.

In other words, play the game to enjoy it - not to endlessly gear and re-gear, every 5 minutes.

jainiadral · December 2018

Oathunbound wrote: »

I think there is a perception problem that applys to people seeing someone as being a elitest jerk when they are trying to offer advise that they think would be helpful. I would consider myself a meta chaser when it comes to gear and getting a good rotation for DPS but I would never force my way of thinking on someone who doesn't want it. However if someone asked for my advise I would say that they would ultimately go for the best sets possible but also offer sets they can wear now that will fit their role in the meantime. It just sucks when you are trying to be helpful but when you ask "do you know what you're doing?" It is more likely taken as a criticism rather then an olive branch to offer advise.

Sorry, this is probably unwanted advice, but "Do you know what you are doing?" sounds like a criticism in the guise of a question. Most people who ask it are critics. Are you trying to ask them what they want to accomplish?

Maybe try, "What are your objectives and goals? Maybe I can help you reach them." Or some less weenie version, anyway

templesus · December 2018

My one and only question regarding all of this;

Was the information they gave him wrong?

If not, I don’t understand what’s so bad. They told him what endgame gear is, it’s up to him whether he gets it or not. I feel that coming to forums to bash those players without even giving the full story of what happened // what exactly he asked for, is in fact, asinine and disrespectful.

TheRealSniker · December 2018

Why are you always targeting 2 groups of people who obviously dont like eachother and hope for reactions?
Ive seen 5 such forum posts within the past few days and I always see the same group of people organizing and stroking the fire

@Tasear Im looking at you

I dont get it...
The Moderators are obviously banning and suspending peoples Videos for having a single hatewhisper in them but let posts like these be alive and well...

THEDKEXPERIENCE · December 2018

If you’re gonna do something may as well try to be good at it.

Just don’t be a jerk about it.

Nothing wrong with trying your best and offering advice when asked for it. People who do that are simply elite at being people.

Being a jerk about it makes you an elitist.

jainiadral · December 2018

Didn't really want to jump into this whole thing, but I can't help myself.

Advice, especially detailed advice, is useless unless you make some attempt to tailor it to the wants and needs of the asker. If you don't make that attempt, you're creating a situation like the one the OP has posted. One that if you're a high end player will ultimately result in a chilling effect among newer players who will be too scared to try group content. That's why it's important to suss out a newer player's ultimate objectives before offering advice.

Ask questions and listen to the player's answers before offering advice. Make it relevant to them. Otherwise it might be worse than useless.

VaranisArano · December 2018

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Why are you always targeting 2 groups of people who obviously dont like eachother and hope for reactions?
Ive seen 5 such forum posts within the past few days and I always see the same group of people organizing and stroking the fire

Tasear Im looking at you

I dont get it...
The Moderators are obviously banning and suspending peoples Videos for having a single hatewhisper in them but let posts like these be alive and well...

You know, you can simply report threads you feel are baiting or report comments that are derailing/arguing back and forth.

If the mods agree, they'll deal with it.

Rain_Greyraven · December 2018

Elite, Elitism, Douchenozzle......

It's really semantics.

BoneShatterer · December 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

For some enjoying the game is doing good at the game etc

Also once you do get cp160, it is when end game starts so why not do trials and start the gear grind, It's not as if getting relequen is overly difficult - it drops on normal. And yokeda drops on normal and vet + you can upgrade the quality. it's something to grind for.

It's not the end of the world to suggest a newer player gear options, because it gives them something to do if they choose to do that, some people do like the idea of that and well others dont.

i started my char level 1, on my other account.... since i had not recovered my original one, so he was level 1 *** gears and all.. i was sent from sumemrset tuto TO summerset storymode... i was cp140 when i cleared summerset story...... i had EP > SILVER>GOLD story mode to clear not including all the other DLCs story mode ..... exactly when do you consider yourself end game when the only thing you've done in the game to lead you to the end is 1 dlc ? and you havent touched the original game?

Finviuswe · December 2018

Everyone that I was enjoying the game most, and that is something I was really thankful for.

People were most jealous of me. That is what we hoped for lol.

BoneShatterer · December 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thorstienn wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The answer I go with is: whatever gear you need to run the level of content you want to run.

Because, for example, if you want to tank trials, I'm going to tell you to go farm Crypt of Hearts for Ebon Armory. You can wear Plague Doctor, Whitestrake, or Livewire or whatever you want to get your Ebon, but you'll need that Ebon (and eventually Alkosh) when you want to tank trials.

I get what you're saying, but this is getting close to another common problem, and I think it stems from the meta "creators" titling "dungeon and trials build" NOT "trials leaderboards build"

You suggest a tank needs Alkosh to run trials, even though it's a trial set so to get it, you wear something else (infused crusher torugs perhaps), and you realise we can complete this fine with this gear!

In the OP case: hundings and viper?
lol, noob run these 2 trial sets and a vdungeon set and vMA bow backbar!
Ok, what sets do I run to get those?
Hundings and leviathan (or vipers I guess) is a good option!
=elitist idiots.

In other words, you are correct that it depends on the content someone wants to run, but really the only time to tell someone to run the meta, is in a guild that is going for Vet leaderboards runs.

Nb: not a specific attack on you Varanis, you just mentioned a common gripe I have.

Not a problem.

I specifically mentioned Alkosh because anyone who wants to tank trials will need to acquire a set eventually (unless they run with groups who dont ask their tanks to run Alkosh to support the group.)

So its sort of like this.

"You want to tank trials? Okay. The 3 sets you need are Ebon Armory, Alkosh, and Torug's."

"I'm a brand new tank..."

"That's okay. None of those are necessary for dungeons, or even technically to conplete trials, but those are the sets groups expect because it gives the best support for the group.

So wear whatever you like while you acquire those sets, but chances are that your trials guilds will want you to have those three sets available."

So yeah, I understand why people explain the gear you need to have available if you want to do top tier content because groups expect certain buffs and min maxed gear. Its good for a new player to know what they are aiming for if they want to do top tier group content. On the other hand, I totally agree that its great to know the gear you can use while you get the top tier gear (and usually that gear is perfectly usable for most content outside of top tier min-maxed groups.) It's also silly to expect brand new players to jump straight to top tier trials gear like they are Athena leaping fully formed from the head of Zeus.

i play a dps but i get your point also my tank on this account is dated as well xD almost my entire account is dated orsinium and [/b]RARELY[/b] do a raid im doing the normal dungeon for the exp and thats it. i've only returned to pledges but then again as a caster dps being melee magicka i need ot have spell strag another set and a 3rd set of this or that my rotation MUST be specific or im just some weaksauce noob who doesnt know how to play the game and i should stop playing... and yes i've been served this meal more than once in a normal dungeon but hey when the tank goes down the heal goes down im the one cleaning the mess xD but its far from enjoyable. if my guidl ever has requirement i will gladly accept it and i will be moe than happy to ask for help to understand whats happening. but so far most of the guilds ive joined.....

HUH YOURE A NEW GUY?!?! wow thats great now go in this VET farm that helm go in this vet farm thats et go find a crafter get those 3 items hit the pledges vet get that shoulder.....
me to answer = how hard is it?
guilds = you gotta have at least 2 sets of XYZ name with XYZ traitinpurple andyou need ot have that stone and this piece and your rotation must this oine....

how much are those things?

roughly 25-70k a pieces

me: you do know that i just started the game 3 weeks ago right?

guilds: ......

me: *reads top right corner of screen* you have been removed from the guild you were offered to joined.

heres a dare:

make a char max cp 170 allowed, and gear himout like a new player would and more importantly PLAY IT LIKE A NEW PLAYER would play it. tell me the tale after

Raudgrani · December 2018

templesus wrote: »

My one and only question regarding all of this;

Was the information they gave him wrong?

If not, I don’t understand what’s so bad. They told him what endgame gear is, it’s up to him whether he gets it or not. I feel that coming to forums to bash those players without even giving the full story of what happened // what exactly he asked for, is in fact, asinine and disrespectful.

The guy didn't ask for "endgame gear" (I don't take for granted he even know what that means), he happily started by telling how he just reached CP 160 wanted someone to craft him Viper's Sting and Hunding's Rage. He probably literally stepped out of a mishmash of junk he slapped on his toon from lvl1-lvl50/Cp160; and gets told to get that stuff.
He didn't even mention trials or dungeons, for all we know he could have been set on doing every quest and storyline in the game, not even go near trials etc.

That Viper crafting part alone should perhaps reveal that he had a little bit further to go down the road, before brainlessly spend hours on end farming Craglorn trials over and over again. I'm in a small trials guild myself, and there's a number of guys going like "Yokeda daggers?" every time we run a trial, I think they must have been doing it at least 50-100 times on normal, veteran and veteran hardmode altogether - still no dual daggers for some. If someone told me that's what's ahead for me to play the game back when I reached CP 160, I would just go "Erheem... Okay..." and think it was hopeless.

Right, I COULD perhaps buy the Relequen part, as we'll want armor it shouldn't take too many runs, but I mean AY... Daggers, jewelry. I mean, common? It wasn't like anyone told him "Fine, you can't craft Viper you get it in Fungal Grotto, but go for this for now [...], eventually though, you will probably want Advancing Yokeda daggers and jewelry if you are a stamina DD [...]". It was more like "That sucks, no use - go Advancing Yokeda and Relequen yada yada...". It isn't the first time I've seen stuff like that, and it's rarely ONE dude saying so. It's like something all natural.

I question myself what they think he should be wearing farming Craglorn Trials, Cloudrest and Cradle of Shadows though? You see people say they farm VMA naked and all, that's probably what they meant... ;-)

Another thing people forget is, you haven't just got better - your characters have too. I didn't really realize there was such a difference. When my son started playing ESO, he got killed several times by some mercenaries in Shadowfen during some quest (he was like lvl8 back then). He was like "Dad, can you help me with these?". I was like "Haha, wft. gimme that ****, now lookie here son!" - and I got smacked the same way first time, to my surprise. With any of my own toons, I could like drop the controller and go to the toilet for 10 minutes and get back, and they probably still wouldn't have killed me; and I would probably kill all three of them them myself in 2 attacks or so. It does matter. There's a vast difference between CP 160 and CP 810 too,

Kikke · December 2018

It's not elitism to give advice, even if the advice is out of said persons reach.
Just gives them something to set as a goal.

And personally, if I had reached cp160, as a newb to the game today and asked people for gear tips and some would say "Anything works" "just use what you have" or worst yet. Gives me a subpar gear combination to farm for, I would feel that my time was wasted.
Why not just tell me whats best for my character?

Sylvermynx · December 2018

Kikke wrote: »

It's not elitism to give advice, even if the advice is out of said persons reach.
Just gives them something to set as a goal.

And personally, if I had reached cp160, as a newb to the game today and asked people for gear tips and some would say "Anything works" "just use what you have" or worst yet. Gives me a subpar gear combination to farm for, I would feel that my time was wasted.
Why not just tell me whats best for my character?

It's.... not so much what they tell you.... it's how they tell you. Nope, haven't had the issue in this game, but yeah.... in other games....

Tasear · December 2018

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Why are you always targeting 2 groups of people who obviously dont like eachother and hope for reactions?
Ive seen 5 such forum posts within the past few days and I always see the same group of people organizing and stroking the fire

@Tasear Im looking at you

I dont get it...
The Moderators are obviously banning and suspending peoples Videos for having a single hatewhisper in them but let posts like these be alive and well...

Not my thread dear, Let's stay on topic.

Tasear · December 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

It's not elitism to give advice, even if the advice is out of said persons reach.
Just gives them something to set as a goal.

And personally, if I had reached cp160, as a newb to the game today and asked people for gear tips and some would say "Anything works" "just use what you have" or worst yet. Gives me a subpar gear combination to farm for, I would feel that my time was wasted.
Why not just tell me whats best for my character?

It's.... not so much what they tell you.... it's how they tell you. Nope, haven't had the issue in this game, but yeah.... in other games....

It called respecting each other. I think biggest issue in this story is not the advice given, but how it was presented.

Sylvermynx · December 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Kikke wrote: »

It's not elitism to give advice, even if the advice is out of said persons reach.
Just gives them something to set as a goal.

And personally, if I had reached cp160, as a newb to the game today and asked people for gear tips and some would say "Anything works" "just use what you have" or worst yet. Gives me a subpar gear combination to farm for, I would feel that my time was wasted.
Why not just tell me whats best for my character?

It's.... not so much what they tell you.... it's how they tell you. Nope, haven't had the issue in this game, but yeah.... in other games....

It called respecting each other. I think biggest issue in this story is not the advice given, but how it was presented.

Exactly.

idk · December 2018

First, I do not see how making a suggestion is elitist. Granted, the person OP mentioned may not be interested in grinding any gear but from what I read it was only a suggestion that was made. It did not come off as elitist.

Heck, if that question was asked in a decent guild I would expect a similar answer.

Tasear wrote: »

First there's a difference between elite and elistism. The elite will advise something fitting person's need, while elistist will push their way.

To what the title says this is an appropriate response. I would add that an elite player is usually no the one who comes off as elitist since in most situations a newer or less experienced player would come across them that elite player can carry the group without issue.

The player who exhibits what we tend to refer to as an elitist is usually upset with a player because they need someone to help carry them so when they get a lesser skilled player they tend to push their views. We see this often when a player is complaining about the groups they get in GF. One has to wonder why they have to rely on GF to get a group to begin with. Think about that for a moment.

D0PAMINE · December 2018

I've run with experienced and new players. Experienced players almost always give friendly advice and don't mind helping, based on what I have seen, even in zone chat, I never see such toxicity. Im not saying it isn't there, I just don't see it. People went out of their way to help me, so I repay it forward. There is no one who has played this game who wasn't new, inexperienced, had a poorly constructed build, or false understanding of core gameplay mechs etc. I've used Oblivions Foe before. I understand what it's like.

D0PAMINE · December 2018

MilwaukeeScott wrote: »

Why is being a good player equate to elitism?

Why do you assume good players are not having fun?

A good point to bring up