So now we're gambling for currency

Grimm13 · December 2018

Tigerseye wrote: »

They are designing the game as though everyone is either; a) a "whale", or b) a vet (with a surplus of included with ESO+ purchase currency), or c) a brand new player, or d) a player who doesn't pay anything for the game (i.e. a "freeloader").

d) does not exist as ESO is Buy 2 Play. Someone pays for the game, it might not be much still someone paid.

Elsonso · December 2018

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

So, yeah. ESO has some stupidly expensive, totally optional and un-needed cosmetic mounts & houses? Whatever. I'll just keep wondering why people get so worked up over it

Why? Because chances are that somewhere inside ZOS, someone reads those examples from other games (which I did not quote) and has already wondered how they could implement them for ESO.

The Crown Store is an evolving thing, and they have been pushing the boundaries since it was rolled out. ZOS apparently thinks they can do a kinder and more friendly cash shop. They are still marching in the direction of those games you talked about. All ZOS has said is that they don't like key boxes with drops in the game that require a purchase in the store to unlock, and that they have "no plans" to sell armor and weapons in the store. I figure both of those are upheld by nothing more than the willpower of the person in charge.

Honestly, this game is probably one bad fiscal outlook away from P2W.

Latios · December 2018

lordrichter wrote: »

Honestly, this game is probably one bad fiscal outlook away from P2W.

It will die the instant it does so. Pay to win games never remain with a healthy population, and ESO’s pop(me included) would never accept it.

I’ll say it again: if you want to complain about “cash shops”, complain about:

Jewelry crafting being locked behind a paywall(Summerset);
The best DPS sets being locked behind a paywall(Siroria/Relequen);
And any other examples of clear combat advantages to those who paid for access to them. These should be made bind on equip(except perfected versions) and jewelry transmuting should be available to everyone.

Cosmetics are harmless. These, on the other hand, aren’t. If people complain about flashy mounts being locked behind crates but don’t always bring up the real problem, we will see that transition much sooner.

Tigerseye · December 2018

Grimm13 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

They are designing the game as though everyone is either; a) a "whale", or b) a vet (with a surplus of included with ESO+ purchase currency), or c) a brand new player, or d) a player who doesn't pay anything for the game (i.e. a "freeloader").

d) does not exist as ESO is Buy 2 Play. Someone pays for the game, it might not be much still someone paid.

Yeah, that is very true.

I should have said; d) a player who only pays for the game itself (doesn't ever buy ESO+, or anything from the Crown store).

Digiman · December 2018

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

We have items that can only be obtained through gems, which can only be obtained through gambling boxes. So if we give them real money, they pay in-game currency out at a random rate of exchange based on box contents.

Imagine paying $15 and getting a random amount of crowns. Maybe you'll get 1500, or maybe 50 depends on the RNG.

These gem exclusive offerings are encouraging some pretty shady practices.

Well with the way governments are looking at these loot box situations Zenimax better start counting the days and get their licks in before the lollipop is taken away from them.

Bruccius · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

We have items that can only be obtained through gems, which can only be obtained through gambling boxes. So if we give them real money, they pay in-game currency out at a random rate of exchange based on box contents.

Imagine paying $15 and getting a random amount of crowns. Maybe you'll get 1500, or maybe 50 depends on the RNG.

These gem exclusive offerings are encouraging some pretty shady practices.

Well with the way governments are looking at these loot box situations Zenimax better start counting the days and get their licks in before the lollipop is taken away from them.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Belgium's ridiculous decision to match the outlook for the rest of the world.

Digiman · December 2018

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

EphemeraCrawford · December 2018

I wouldn't put too much faith in Belgium's ridiculous decision to match the outlook for the rest of the world.

The American FTC has announced they will be looking at the practice of loot crates.

Delsanab14_ESO · December 2018

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

I wouldn't put too much faith in Belgium's ridiculous decision to match the outlook for the rest of the world.

The American FTC has announced they will be looking at the practice of loot crates.

The FTC right now is not as... reputable as it was a few years back sadly.

sevomd69 · December 2018

Latios wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Honestly, this game is probably one bad fiscal outlook away from P2W.

It will die the instant it does so. Pay to win games never remain with a healthy population, and ESO’s pop(me included) would never accept it.

I’ll say it again: if you want to complain about “cash shops”, complain about:

Jewelry crafting being locked behind a paywall(Summerset);
The best DPS sets being locked behind a paywall(Siroria/Relequen);
And any other examples of clear combat advantages to those who paid for access to them. These should be made bind on equip(except perfected versions) and jewelry transmuting should be available to everyone.

Cosmetics are harmless. These, on the other hand, aren’t. If people complain about flashy mounts being locked behind crates but don’t always bring up the real problem, we will see that transition much sooner.

Siroria is NOT the best DPS set... unless you're only fighting a dummy...just saying...

Bruccius · December 2018

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

I wouldn't put too much faith in Belgium's ridiculous decision to match the outlook for the rest of the world.

The American FTC has announced they will be looking at the practice of loot crates.

And?

Looking at is not the same thing as coming to the same deluded conclusion as Belgium did.

DMuehlhausen · December 2018

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

We have items that can only be obtained through gems, which can only be obtained through gambling boxes. So if we give them real money, they pay in-game currency out at a random rate of exchange based on box contents.

Imagine paying $15 and getting a random amount of crowns. Maybe you'll get 1500, or maybe 50 depends on the RNG.

These gem exclusive offerings are encouraging some pretty shady practices.

It's not gambling though cause you know you are getting something. One of the core things that make gambling, gambling is the risk you may not get anything back.

I also don't think they would ever sell a crown if you didn't know exactly how many you were going to get based on what you pay. I have no problem with crates as long as they are always 100% cosmetic. I though wouldn't buy another crown if it was a random number.

Curtdogg47 · December 2018

I just whish you could turn all crown crate items you don't want into gems, including the mounts and the costumes I don't like, or want. I just want those gem to buy mount training for my next alt. Seriously starting a new character a 60 speed and stam is so freaking nice!

I should probably do the math, it might be cheaper to just the crown mount training 10 packs. But sometimes I do get something I like in the crates so its not all bad.

In my personal opinion though I think ZOS would make more dollars by dropping the price on everything ditching the crate system and just having a seasonal cash shop with the occasional limited edition or one time only items from time to time. I would buy more stuff if I could just buy what I like and wanted out right.
And as long as its all cosmetic I'm cool with whatever they put in the shop!

Glurin · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Girl_Number8 · December 2018

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

We have items that can only be obtained through gems, which can only be obtained through gambling boxes. So if we give them real money, they pay in-game currency out at a random rate of exchange based on box contents.

Imagine paying $15 and getting a random amount of crowns. Maybe you'll get 1500, or maybe 50 depends on the RNG.

These gem exclusive offerings are encouraging some pretty shady practices.

Eso decided to hire carnival game operators for their business model. Don't worry, you will get that giant teddy bear with just a few more gambles....I mean tries.

Buy crowns, to get crates, to get gems but instead you get nothing. Not shady at all

Delsanab14_ESO · December 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

JinMori · December 2018

Don;t like it don;t buy it, but at the same time, by saying this you are ignoring an enormous problem that these kind of practices create, things that have been said to no end.

Iv'e already said a few things about this problem, in short, zos priority isn't making a good game, it's crown store, by buying this trash, you are validating their bs, so if you are buying cosmetics for real money, just know you are part of the problem.

Afterall, why make good content, and especially balancing the already existing content, if they can just make money off this gambling system?

JinMori · December 2018

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

We have items that can only be obtained through gems, which can only be obtained through gambling boxes. So if we give them real money, they pay in-game currency out at a random rate of exchange based on box contents.

Imagine paying $15 and getting a random amount of crowns. Maybe you'll get 1500, or maybe 50 depends on the RNG.

These gem exclusive offerings are encouraging some pretty shady practices.

It's not gambling though cause you know you are getting something. One of the core things that make gambling, gambling is the risk you may not get anything back.

I also don't think they would ever sell a crown if you didn't know exactly how many you were going to get based on what you pay. I have no problem with crates as long as they are always 100% cosmetic. I though wouldn't buy another crown if it was a random number.

I don;t think you understand the definition of gambling, so here it is for you... Jeez the length people go to justify things, it's unbelievable.

gamble
/ˈɡamb(ə)l/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"he gambles on football"
synonyms: bet, wager, place a bet, lay a bet, stake money on something, back the horses, try one's luck on the horses; More
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"he was gambling on the success of his satellite TV channel"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk, take a leap in the dark, leave things to chance, speculate, venture, buy a pig in a poke; More

Notice how it doesn't say anything about the possibility of getting nothing, sure, you could get nothing from gambling, but that isn't the definition, just, pay money in hope of a result.

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2018

I don’t have any issues with loot boxes. I have never bought any, and I’ll never buy any I don’t give a damn what they put in them.

My one ONLY gripe with them are they are targeted at children. That gives me a very low opinion of ZOS and to use the words I’d like to use to describe how that makes me feel would get me banned....targeting something like this at kids just crosses the line for me, it goes into the area of honor and respect you just don’t go....

Children DO NOT have a fully developed brain. Even at 16 years old kids are ruled by emotion instead of rational thought. A 16 year old kid is no more capable of making a sound decision to purchase something in game than he is in purchasing alcohol. This is why it’s illegal to buy booze before 21 and it really ought to be 25 but the gift had to compromise on that one.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

The human brain works differently in teens than adults they use different parts to make decisions. The brain doesn’t fully develop until 25, putting things like loot boxes in front of kids should be criminal. Just like it’s illegal for kids to be in casinos for the same reasons.

Sure their parents should control their child purchases, but we know in reality 7 out of 10 times that doesn’t happen for various reasons.

These things need to be regulated in a way that makes them less predatory towards kids.

If an adult wants to spend thousands of dollars on loot boxes, let em, they are adults...but targeting these things at kids which most of them are is just flat out wrong and disgusting

Glurin · December 2018

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

And just who do you think actually pays for those taxes and regulations on the company?

I'll give you a hint. It's not the company.

Diminish · December 2018

yodased wrote: »

Keep presenting you opinion as fact, and referencing games that consult shrinks to prey on our weak little minds.

Why can no one just be honest and admit that you want whats in the box and either cant or wont pay for the chance?

Trying to compare loot boxes to actual atrosities is really sad. Not being able to play barbie dream house or dressup is not trauma.

The only thing you can not get right now is houses for gold. Thats it.

Spouting off that devs dont put effort into game or saying as fact they would make more money from non chance one off sales is a strech armstronh level reach.

No one can predict the future, blanker statements of opinion presented as fact is absurd.

If you work for this company and have access to real data, I will listen to you
If you are just a pissed off gamer who wants the new shiny and cant or wont get it, you have no facts.

Do games use psychology to entice people to spend money? Of course they do. So do movies amd television and instgram and facebook and google and apple and car manufacurers and energy drinks and real estate agents and t.v. doctors and the evening news and your congressman and senators and drug companies and literally every single other business on the planet.

Be mad at the people perpepuating the system, wheres the attack on the people spending a grip of cash so i can buy 20k crowns with gold?

The reason that its not gambling is because its not an exchange of currency. If you could revert your purchased in game currency back to the original currency you would have gambling, because you would be dealing with legit exchange.

Bitcoin is gambling, loot boxes are games of chance. You buy tokens you dont exchange them simply because there is no reversal or probability that you could financially benefit from the system.

Rather you like to admit it or not, "games of chance" are in-fact gambling by definition. Currencies do not need to exchanged for something to be deemed as gambling. Real people do develop real psychological addictions to gambling which can lead to huge adverse affects on their livelihood, rather it is for money or some virtual item is not of importance.

You are absolutely right, businesses do entice consumers to spend money... However (and using some of your examples), you don't walk into a car dealership and throw $60k down hoping to drive out of there with that new Ferrari, and end up leaving with a fiat. You don't walk into a real estate agency to buy a home with $150k, and leave with a trailer because RNG. You don't go buy an energy drink with $3, and walk out with a teaspoon of sugar and a pack of kool-aid because RNG.

In the end, predatory loot crates in not only this game, but every other game WILL end up being regulated, and rightfully so. Any "game of chance" should be required to outline specific odds of winning, and provide access to a problem gambling hotline for those who may need it. Just because you don't feel like it is a huge ordeal, many people suffer from gambling addiction, and loot crates ARE gambling, and ARE addicting to some people.

If Zos wants to sell micro-transactions in a virtual store, then they should do just that, but selling a mere chance at an item in a virtual store without being regulated is flat out unethical. With how popular gaming is now days, it needs to change, and in time it will rather you or anyone else likes to believe it.

DaveMoeDee · December 2018

While I don't care much about this, I do take issue with how convoluted they are making purchasing things by selling things only for gems. How many levels of indirection do they plan to add? It is their game, but that approach is really not consumer friendly.

Still, I don't see the point in caring. Just give up on getting that crap and you are set. And stop pretending this is about kids. It is about them deciding certain stuff will only be for whales.

Korah_Eaglecry · December 2018

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Honestly I don’t care either way. This is an 18+ game, why the hell are children playing it? Why the hell are you complaining about how people spend their money op? It’s not Pay 2 Win, it’s just cosmetics your getting, jeez.

Anyways I’m just waiting for those Storm Atro Crates.

You dont care, but you care enough to complain about the OP complaining?

DaveMoeDee · December 2018

Grimm13 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

They are designing the game as though everyone is either; a) a "whale", or b) a vet (with a surplus of included with ESO+ purchase currency), or c) a brand new player, or d) a player who doesn't pay anything for the game (i.e. a "freeloader").

d) does not exist as ESO is Buy 2 Play. Someone pays for the game, it might not be much still someone paid.

Might as well be a "freeloader" when they practically give the game away for $10 and people can play non-stop for years. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with those people, as they are playing the game as ZoS has defined it. But they are a class of player that doesn't contribute to revenue. They are just a body in Tamriel.

Delsanab14_ESO · December 2018

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Grimm13 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

They are designing the game as though everyone is either; a) a "whale", or b) a vet (with a surplus of included with ESO+ purchase currency), or c) a brand new player, or d) a player who doesn't pay anything for the game (i.e. a "freeloader").

d) does not exist as ESO is Buy 2 Play. Someone pays for the game, it might not be much still someone paid.

Might as well be a "freeloader" when they practically give the game away for $10 and people can play non-stop for years. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with those people, as they are playing the game as ZoS has defined it. But they are a class of player that doesn't contribute to revenue. They are just a body in Tamriel.

Cost more than 10 for Summerset, Vvardenfell, ESO, and the DLC.

Delsanab14_ESO · December 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

And just who do you think actually pays for those taxes and regulations on the company?

I'll give you a hint. It's not the company.

We're not talking about taxes. I've said this two times now. Regulations are quite a bit more than that.

Glurin · December 2018

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

And just who do you think actually pays for those taxes and regulations on the company?

I'll give you a hint. It's not the company.

We're not talking about taxes. I've said this two times now. Regulations are quite a bit more than that.

Well, first of all, yes, we were talking about taxes.

Digiman: "True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices."

And second, regulations have the same result as far as flow of finances is concerned. Costs are going to be passed down to the consumer, one way or another. That's how businesses stay in business. The money has to come from somewhere, and the place most businesses get all their money is you.

Glurin · December 2018

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

While I don't care much about this, I do take issue with how convoluted they are making purchasing things by selling things only for gems. How many levels of indirection do they plan to add? It is their game, but that approach is really not consumer friendly.

Still, I don't see the point in caring. Just give up on getting that crap and you are set. And stop pretending this is about kids. It is about them deciding certain stuff will only be for whales.

"Consumer friendly" is not the point. As you yourself indicated, this is about the whales. The function of an alternative currency like crowns is to distance your mind from the actual cost of an item. "Oh look, it's only 5000 crowns!" No, it's fifty bucks. (FYI, this is similar to the reason things cost $19.95 instead of $20.) Thus using crowns to buy crates which give you a random amount of gems in order to buy something that can only be purchased with 600 gems introduces so many layers that nobody has any idea how much the item in question actually costs. Which is exactly where they want you.

Delsanab14_ESO · December 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

And just who do you think actually pays for those taxes and regulations on the company?

I'll give you a hint. It's not the company.

We're not talking about taxes. I've said this two times now. Regulations are quite a bit more than that.

Well, first of all, yes, we were talking about taxes.

Digiman: "True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices."

And second, regulations have the same result as far as flow of finances is concerned. Costs are going to be passed down to the consumer, one way or another. That's how businesses stay in business. The money has to come from somewhere, and the place most businesses get all their money is you.

Regulations as in "they are not allowed to do certain things anymore"

Glurin · December 2018

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices.

Which will probably be on top of the 9% so called "Amusement Tax" Chicago has and the 10% state tax Pennsylvania has just proposed on games rated Mature or AO, which themselves are on top of state and local sales taxes and such. All in the name of school safety and protecting children, of course.

Those are taxes on the consumer. Not an actual cost to the company typically in practice. Regulation is a bit different.

And just who do you think actually pays for those taxes and regulations on the company?

I'll give you a hint. It's not the company.

We're not talking about taxes. I've said this two times now. Regulations are quite a bit more than that.

Well, first of all, yes, we were talking about taxes.

Digiman: "True, though they are looking into it though, the weakest they can do is tax them more for gambling practices."

And second, regulations have the same result as far as flow of finances is concerned. Costs are going to be passed down to the consumer, one way or another. That's how businesses stay in business. The money has to come from somewhere, and the place most businesses get all their money is you.

Regulations as in "they are not allowed to do certain things anymore"

Right, and how do you think they are going to make up for that lost revenue?

Regulation is not some magic pill that just makes the world lollipops and rainbows because some bureaucrat says it should. It often comes with some pretty nasty side effects, costs being the least of them.