Tanking Shortage in Random Dungeon Finder - Give tanks a dungeon preview

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · December 2018

Dont start me on fake tanks. -_-
Went with my healer on normal random dungeon and the finder gave WGT last night.
The tank was was one shot by the Planar Inhibitor and Molag Kena. And was 2 shots by Micella/Ortho/Cordius.
Why? Stage 4 vampire without fire glyph. Same applied to a stage 3 DD.
I had to tank with the healer.

usmcjdking wrote: »

I don't have this issue.

I also don't walk into a pug with Ebon & Alkosh and expect great things to happen.

Amen to this. Alkosh is for vet trials, and lets be honest not a set for tanks only. Can be used by a melee DD if one bothers to lower their "high crit" setup to more group friendly setup.

For tanks Ebon & Imperium is far better combination for trials, followed by Ebon & Galenwe in 4man groups.
Many times saw the Imperium damage shield saving the group on HRC, while Galenwe helps a lot on dungeons these days with fake DDs who only spam light attacks.

idk · December 2018

thanoscopter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

thanoscopter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

thanoscopter wrote: »

Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE. I figure it's quicker to just keep DPSing than rez this fellow again.

My thought was why res him to begin with.

I do not do it to be rude but sometimes those I run with, we queue with only 3 of us just to see what we get. If the pug is an issue and they die I tell my group not to res them. It is not intended to be rude but the best use of our time. I have yet to have anyone complain about that. If anything we are thanked for our clear and for explaining the fights.

I rezzed him purely out of sympathy and hoping he would learn some mechanics. I actually would have rezzed him an unlimited amount of times if he was more respectful, took off his sword & board and stopped taunting...but he just wanted to be hard carried I think.

Well, at least you don't vote kick em either, I think not rezzing them is a good solution and maybe some incentive for them to improve.

No, I see no point to kicking a player unless they are an ass, which does occur sometimes.

However, I do assess their contribution and when dealing with some HM fights where mechanics can be an issue when not followed, like the fight you discussed, I tend to not have the team res a player like you described. There is nothing redeeming about that player since they clearly did not listen to the stop taunting request.

Back to the point. Why can't real tanks be somewhat guaranteed to be paired with real DPS and real healers with a group preview? We are in high demand and want assurances we are getting a legit group. Contrary to what others claimed, my tank queues are still instant. I reckon the tanks with longer queues are trying to queue for Vet Blood Root Forge or Falkreath Hold when it isn't even the pledge.

To the point then. Most decent tanks are pretty much guaranteed to be paired with real DPS and healers. Whatever they want. They general get into guild groups and sometimes zone groups. They avoid GF like a plague. If you want to pick and choose you form your group before queueing. Very simple.

Pretty much you will find decent tanks are in decent guilds. That goes for decent players in general which is why a totally random GF group is often not so great.

Arunei · December 2018

OP, you still haven't bothered to explain how this benefits anyone other than you and other tanks. All your examples of "oh tanks have it so bad" can easily apply to any other role in this game. It's not the role, it's the player. Again, all this would do is serve to do is allow tanks to pick and choose which groups to join without giving the group itself any sort of chance, and that's going to lead to an even bigger shortage of tanks, not do anything to combat it.

As others have said, if you don't want to bother with the dirty casual pugs, group up with people from a guild or even zone chat and then do a random daily. And as someone else has said (and I don't recall seeing you offer any sort of valid response on), don't 'real' healers and DDs also have a right to the information you're demanding tanks have? Is a tank's time worth so much more than anyone else's? Why should only tanks get the right to preview a dungeon before joining a group?

damtotb16_ESO · December 2018

Samsgaard wrote: »

Six tanks, seen it all in PUGs. Sometimes it sucks, and sometimes you do have to bail on HM (or bail completely); but this attitude is toxic.

Also, why should only the tank get this preview? I bet a 1000 CP+ DPS would like to know something about the group before he decides to enter the dungeon and potentially have to carry the other three players. Why wouldn't the healer also be entitled to know what he's signing up for?

This gave me a good laugh, show me a dps that carries a tank in DLC dungeon?

bharathitman · December 2018

This is a very bad idea, if the tank gets to 'preview' a dungeon, obviously the tank would 'pick and choose' the group that he/she wants to play with and this leads to

Low level DDs waiting forever and ever to get matched with a tank since most tanks would not be willing to group up with them. Given a choice every tank would love a group with 60k dps than a group with 15~20k dps
Tanks with low skill levels looking for an easy carry would again choose to group up with high CP players. This wont improve their tanking skills at all

No matter how you look at it, DDs are screwed big time. As a tank, I see if the group can manage the dungeon, and if the group cannot manage then I leave to cut my losses. But this happens very rarely

Eso101rus · December 2018

I don’t agree that tanks should be able to preview group, but I understand the frustration of the OP. And I agree that as an experienced tank I can tell from the first pull whether the group can do it, also the title, weapons held, health points all tell me what I’m guessing before an add is hit. Low cp is definitely NOT a factor, I’ve seen many ‘master wizards’ who haven’t got a clue what to do at 810cp.

Jeremy · December 2018

thanoscopter wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.

Oh, I understand their issue. It's pure toxicity.

They don't want to get matched in with players who don't meet their exacting, and unrealistic, demands. They're asking for the ability to play kingmaker in the random vet queue; because, as the tank, their time is more valuable than the mere mortals queuing for DPS.

Well I'm glad you said it for me. ^^

We don't always agree (in fact we rarely do). But on this issue we're in complete agreement.

Are you guys sure you aren't confusing an unwillingness to put up with nonsense with toxicity? I do a lot of PUGs. I've leveled over 8 tanks to Undaunted 9 mostly in PUGs because I can join a vet PUG at any time on my schedule.

I've seen a lot more of the bad and the good in the group finder than most commentating here. That's because I actually use the group finder tool heavily unlike others giving advice yet stating they barely PUG or use this feature because they get their guildies instead.

I've put up with a lot of subpar groups and carried them. I got to say, if a tank leaves, they are usually justified in their decision. A tank should not have to wear DPS sets to carry DPS players in a vet dungeon, group finder or not.

So why is it perfectly okay for you guys to boot a fake tank but not okay for a real tank to leave a group of fake DPS? Seems like a double standard here.

I use the activity finder heavily as well. Usually two to three times daily.

I regret to say my experiences are different than your own. Because rarely do I see it justified when the tanks leave. They are often unreasonably impatient, demanding and have unrealistic standards. And even when they stay they can be like this.

For example: earlier today I was doing a Veteran City of Ash 1. Sure, the damage wasn't anything amazing. But we were doing fine (it's not exactly a difficult dungeon) and on the last boss the tank started berating the damage dealers because they weren't killing the adds fast enough. Even though the boss's health was going down fine and I wasn't having a hard time healing anyone. We easily won the fight, on hard mode. But for some reason that didn't seem to matter to the tank because he wanted top tier DPS - even when it wasn't needed - and they were going to suffer his wrath because they didn't have it.

And scenes like this are not uncommon for me.

zaria · December 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

The general reasons I see for few tanks are, in no particular order:

1. Most players don't want the responsibility. Solution: ????

2. Most players don't enjoy tanking compared to DPS or another role. Solution: Would probably require reworking tanking, which ZOS may or may not be willing to do.

3. Tanks prefer to run with known friends or guildmates over randoms due to low DPS making runs a pain. Solution: Everyone has an idea for this one.

4. Swapping from tank gear/CP to do other content is a pain. Solution: ESO would have to create "loadouts" or something where we can swap between builds quickly in-game (no add-ons). However, this is unlikely with the way we are charged for CP and Skill resets.

Honestly, I think the solution to #3 is for ZOS to teach players how to do better DPS. An in-game constant DPS counter would be a good start, followed by actual tutorials about DPS rotations.

This,
1 tanking is different skills than DD or healer, its also more responsibility and tank has other mechanics to handle who don't affect healer and DD.

2 and 4 is much the same, DD is default as you need to do damage even then questing. Basic healing is replacing one of your destruction staffs with an healing staff, you need to level up this and its skills also some other skills are nice for healers but still difference is small.
At best an tank is an low cp DD in dps gear, for health tank builds even questing is an pain.

3 as its an lack of tanks its often easy to get an guild group who is more fun, often you get people joining who join just because its an guild group.

thorwyn · December 2018

I would want to see which dungeon, if it is partially completed, the time the players have been in there and the CP levels. This would give incentive to more tanks and get the potential groups in limbo actually moving. Let tanks decline these potential dungeons if we aren't comfortable with them.

I would also want to see a complete MMO history of all players involved, their current CV, a valid HIV-test, their instagram and/or facebook accounts, a subscribed NDA and a copy of their last three pay checks.

On a serious note: each and every class can be a pain in the a... when doing random dungeons. Live with it. Tanks are nothing special.

Digiman · December 2018

People people.... these are all terrible ideas!

The solution would be to provide a group buff to 4 mans that increase healing, damage or survivability if a player with a role can't be found.

IF A TANK CAN'T BE BOTHERED STAYING FOR A FEW RUNS TO HELP A GROUP,

THEN THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE CONSIDERED NEEDED FOR THAT GROUP!

MartiniDaniels · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

People people.... these are all terrible ideas!

The solution would be to provide a group buff to 4 mans that increase healing, damage or survivability if a player with a role can't be found.

IF A TANK CAN'T BE BOTHERED STAYING FOR A FEW RUNS TO HELP A GROUP,

THEN THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE CONSIDERED NEEDED FOR THAT GROUP!

If dps don't bother to prepare for his role why tank should bother to "help a group"? For polite and clever newbies - I'll always help and tell them about mechanics, but if we have cp100+ lazy *** why he need any help. It's L2P issue.

Eso101rus · December 2018

On a side note, the number of tanks turning up using ransack instead of pierce armour is becoming increasingly annoying for us tanks who decide to run the odd dd occasionally.

Digiman · December 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

People people.... these are all terrible ideas!

The solution would be to provide a group buff to 4 mans that increase healing, damage or survivability if a player with a role can't be found.

IF A TANK CAN'T BE BOTHERED STAYING FOR A FEW RUNS TO HELP A GROUP,

THEN THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE CONSIDERED NEEDED FOR THAT GROUP!

If dps don't bother to prepare for his role why tank should bother to "help a group"? For polite and clever newbies - I'll always help and tell them about mechanics, but if we have cp100+ lazy *** why he need any help. It's L2P issue.

Yes, how can they L2P when no one gives the new guys the experience.

Tanks are nothing special, don't know why this game is so gun how the holy trinity, they should just absolve the situation by providing buffs to groups that are missing roles.

MartiniDaniels · December 2018

Eso101rus wrote: »

On a side note, the number of tanks turning up using ransack instead of pierce armour is becoming increasingly annoying for us tanks who decide to run the odd dd occasionally.

You may place your ele drain by yourself, mage

Eso101rus · December 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Eso101rus wrote: »

On a side note, the number of tanks turning up using ransack instead of pierce armour is becoming increasingly annoying for us tanks who decide to run the odd dd occasionally.

You may place your ele drain by yourself, mage

Lol, yeah it’s the first thing I do if apart from that the tank is half decent. 😂

VaranisArano · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

People people.... these are all terrible ideas!

The solution would be to provide a group buff to 4 mans that increase healing, damage or survivability if a player with a role can't be found.

IF A TANK CAN'T BE BOTHERED STAYING FOR A FEW RUNS TO HELP A GROUP,

THEN THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE CONSIDERED NEEDED FOR THAT GROUP!

If dps don't bother to prepare for his role why tank should bother to "help a group"? For polite and clever newbies - I'll always help and tell them about mechanics, but if we have cp100+ lazy *** why he need any help. It's L2P issue.

Yes, how can they L2P when no one gives the new guys the experience.

Tanks are nothing special, don't know why this game is so gun how the holy trinity, they should just absolve the situation by providing buffs to groups that are missing roles.

This game is really weird about the Trinity.

Either your group and the dungeon mechanics really need a good tank, a good healer, and 2 DDs OR your group is experienced enough/the dungeon easy enough that you could complete it with whatever random assortment of roles your wanted.

But in general, the hardest dungeons require a tank for mechanics and the fastest runs are usually 1 tank/3 DDs and its because ZOS wants ESO tanks to be about battlefield control which really makes fights go smoother.

AllegraLionheart · December 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Allowing tanks to preview/decline groups they aren't interested in isnt actually going to do a whole lot to help the groups using Groupfinder who need a tank.

I mean, it'll be great for the tank. Tanks get to dungeon-surf until they get their easy-peasy run. But it'll suck for anyone looking for a tank to run DLC dungeons.

This sums up my thoughts on this. Tanks are already an easy load-in if I leave a group that isn't up to snuff for the content they're trying to run. I feel like OP's idea, while insightful, would only exacerbate the issue of relatively fewer tanks.

John_Falstaff · December 2018

So-o... a question to the topic starter. You've mentioned that you're not against teaching inexperienced people who're willing to learn (which I think everyone should do, we're in a social game, nobody will teach new folks except us), but you want this cherry-picking feature of group finder because you're frustrated with people who're not willing to learn. So... how that feature will tell you in advance who's willing to learn and who's not? Do you only want experienced people or those who want to learn are also included? I can't figure which of those two is being discussed.

Jimmy · December 2018

OP is elitist and doesn't deserve to be a tank, tanks are supposed to be selfless.

Numerikuu · December 2018

Jimmy wrote: »

OP is elitist and doesn't deserve to be a tank, tanks are supposed to be selfless.

In that case I guess a lot of people here are selfish for sticking to DD, considering there's a tank shortage.

While I don't agree with OP regarding dungeon previews, I do agree with them on everything else. Nobody likes having their time wasted. Sure, it's best to que up with at least one other person you know you can trust, but they're not always available.

I'd list changes that they need to do to their *** dungeon finder, but let's face it. We've done that, time and time and time again. They're not going to do jack *** to improve it.

Digiman · December 2018

What gest me is the poor tanks that screw up once leave the group and when replaced that tank with 100 CP less manages to clear the dungeon despite a few more wipes...

PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF!

I can understand when a group can't completely function due to one ass being afk all the time and others not listening, but some tanks think they are gods gift to gaming and waltz the minute something looks ugly because they assume the rest is a waste of time....

MartiniDaniels · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

What gest me is the poor tanks that screw up once leave the group and when replaced that tank with 100 CP less manages to clear the dungeon despite a few more wipes...

PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF!

I can understand when a group can't completely function due to one ass being afk all the time and others not listening, but some tanks think they are gods gift to gaming and waltz the minute something looks ugly because they assume the rest is a waste of time....

He already re-queued and complete other dungeon while you were wiping with persistence. Wasted potions and armor repair have it's costs too after all.

Digiman · December 2018

Gold flows like water in this game, and he never used potions either

Eso101rus · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

What gest me is the poor tanks that screw up once leave the group and when replaced that tank with 100 CP less manages to clear the dungeon despite a few more wipes...

PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF!

I can understand when a group can't completely function due to one ass being afk all the time and others not listening, but some tanks think they are gods gift to gaming and waltz the minute something looks ugly because they assume the rest is a waste of time....

If a dd turns up spamming snipe and light attacks, backbarring a resto, it tests good tanks patience a lot.....ps this example happens more than you would possibly imagine recently.😆

Digiman · December 2018

Right, and tanks that don't block because they expect the healer to heal them while ordering the DPS to burn down the boss faster? That's never happened right? /sarcasm

Eso101rus · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

Right, and tanks that don't block because they expect the healer to heal them while ordering the DPS to burn down the boss faster? That's never happened right? /sarcasm

Not to put too fine a point on it most good tanks don’t run with a healer in 4 man content anymore as they are not needed, either not enough damage or a one shot. Only exception being the new prison where a healer is super useful.

MartiniDaniels · December 2018

Eso101rus wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

What gest me is the poor tanks that screw up once leave the group and when replaced that tank with 100 CP less manages to clear the dungeon despite a few more wipes...

PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF!

I can understand when a group can't completely function due to one ass being afk all the time and others not listening, but some tanks think they are gods gift to gaming and waltz the minute something looks ugly because they assume the rest is a waste of time....

If a dd turns up spamming snipe and light attacks, backbarring a resto, it tests good tanks patience a lot.....ps this example happens more than you would possibly imagine recently.😆

Most funny is that with proper, commonly available gear like hundings+spriggans, snipe+poison arrow+endless hail+LA provide those 15-20k dps needed for vet dungeons.

Eso101rus · December 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Eso101rus wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

What gest me is the poor tanks that screw up once leave the group and when replaced that tank with 100 CP less manages to clear the dungeon despite a few more wipes...

PERSISTENCE PAYS OFF!

I can understand when a group can't completely function due to one ass being afk all the time and others not listening, but some tanks think they are gods gift to gaming and waltz the minute something looks ugly because they assume the rest is a waste of time....

If a dd turns up spamming snipe and light attacks, backbarring a resto, it tests good tanks patience a lot.....ps this example happens more than you would possibly imagine recently.😆

Most funny is that with proper, commonly available gear like hundings+spriggans, snipe+poison arrow+endless hail+LA provide those 15-20k dps needed for vet dungeons.

No I’m talking spamming ‘either’ light attacks or snipe, actual weaving wouldn’t be too bad.

MartiniDaniels · December 2018

Digiman wrote: »

Right, and tanks that don't block because they expect the healer to heal them while ordering the DPS to burn down the boss faster? That's never happened right? /sarcasm

Block blocks resource restore so it's permablocking which requires healer support first of all. Not an issue for argonian - but argonian runs on expensive potions.

Maybe you may try to play a tank for a while, then you will understand why low dps teammates is such awful thing for a tank? With low dps in vet team cannot kill adds (small mobs) fast, and so those mobs deplete all tanks resources and start running around and then it's tank to blame after wipe ("i can't heal while running from mobs, i can't dps while running from mobs") from group view but actually those mobs should die in 10 seconds after spawning by game design.

SickDuck · December 2018

People’s complaints about their poor pug experience have very little to do with queuing. The problem there is very simple and fully in the control of ZOS. The problem is that dungeons are not properly standardised in difficulty. When you queue for a random run you may hope for FG1 but end up in FH or MoS. Then you start to complain about lowbies who might have wanted to run FG1 too but ended up with a hard dlc.

If ZOS could finally sort out the difficulty issues, tiers and rewards for running higher risk and/or longer dungeons I bet complaints would go down.