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Tanking Shortage in Random Dungeon Finder - Give tanks a dungeon preview
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MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I use dungeon finder on my tank all the time. Instead of getting frustrated and leaving when a group is doing poorly, I take the time to explain the boss fight. Lots of people don't like to ask questions, because lots of people will kick the inexperienced player. Taking a few minuets to explain the fight can save everyone a lot of frustration. You'll still get those people that don't listen, but you'll have more success then failure by not being "that guy".
It depends, if newbies are polite and want to listen, yeah it's only a good thing to explain mechanics etc. But if this is toxic noob then I really don't want to be his teacher. He will learn only on one thing - he opened his trap -> he searches for new tank. Anyway this happens so rarely, that i don't know what's OP problem.1 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭I use dungeon finder on my tank all the time. Instead of getting frustrated and leaving when a group is doing poorly, I take the time to explain the boss fight. Lots of people don't like to ask questions, because lots of people will kick the inexperienced player. Taking a few minuets to explain the fight can save everyone a lot of frustration. You'll still get those people that don't listen, but you'll have more success then failure by not being "that guy".
I am cool with teaching ppl mechanics.
The issue is potatoes going in vet with a pathetic 10k dps.0 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭A lot of tanks are like this, currently. Since they are in such demand they have no patience for beginner groups and just "instance jump" till they find a solid group.
Thats not true. I have no issue to go through a beginners group and teach them, while I am the tank even if that is the "random normal". (usually I use the random finder on vet).
What I do not have patience to do, is to have 2 Damage dealers who can barely kill the 3m dummy in 24 hours, doing light attacks (bow, fire staff usually) only. And this is completely nerve breaking not only on some difficult boss with mechanics (even on normal) like the Plannar Inhibitor (WGT) but tough trash mobs in Imperial Prison. (normal mode)
Even tonight, knowing how bad the dps was in normal Imperial Prison, I said to them, going to drag all trash mobs on me, run behind me and don't fight.
What the rest did? stuck on the other side of the U gorge, for 20 minutes trying to kill the first watcher. I gave up and quit.
And veteran mode things are even worse. Bogdan in vEH2, beats to submission the CP800 vampire noobs, who after a long grind think they can just go into a dungeon and "win" without fire glyph. Same applies to Rilis on vBC2
God forbid is "DLC" dungeon, even on normal takes hours with PUG. Especially when some queue with fake healers, yet they cannot even do damage.2 -
Zekka✭✭✭✭The problem is and will always be low dps """damage dealers""" queueing for content they can't complete, add mandatory dps tests to queue for veteran dungeons and all the issues would be solved.
Something like 15k minimum for I versions, 20k for IIs, 25k for DLCs and randoms, it won't make clears guaranteed but it would help tremendously.6 -
Dr3sden✭✭✭The issue is because of game design isn't immersive for most tanks. How often do we hear... how I level a tank and said as a DPS or I am afraid of pug because as a tank I make no difference.2
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Haquor✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Allowing tanks to preview/decline groups they aren't interested in isnt actually going to do a whole lot to help the groups using Groupfinder who need a tank.
I mean, it'll be great for the tank. Tanks get to dungeon-surf until they get their easy-peasy run. But it'll suck for anyone looking for a tank to run DLC dungeons.
Due to the amount of people queuing who are clueless, wanting a carry and unwilling to learn then at least allow the ability to NOT queue for dlc or partially completed dungeons for everyone. That would be an amazing start for all people using finder.0 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Meanwhile...
24 minute queue for vet dungeon as a tank on PC NA at the moment... O.o
Queue Twilight Zone music.1 -
thanoscopter✭✭✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »A lot of tanks are like this, currently. Since they are in such demand they have no patience for beginner groups and just "instance jump" till they find a solid group.
Thats not true. I have no issue to go through a beginners group and teach them, while I am the tank even if that is the "random normal". (usually I use the random finder on vet).
What I do not have patience to do, is to have 2 Damage dealers who can barely kill the 3m dummy in 24 hours, doing light attacks (bow, fire staff usually) only. And this is completely nerve breaking not only on some difficult boss with mechanics (even on normal) like the Plannar Inhibitor (WGT) but tough trash mobs in Imperial Prison. (normal mode)
Even tonight, knowing how bad the dps was in normal Imperial Prison, I said to them, going to drag all trash mobs on me, run behind me and don't fight.
What the rest did? stuck on the other side of the U gorge, for 20 minutes trying to kill the first watcher. I gave up and quit.
And veteran mode things are even worse. Bogdan in vEH2, beats to submission the CP800 vampire noobs, who after a long grind think they can just go into a dungeon and "win" without fire glyph. Same applies to Rilis on vBC2
God forbid is "DLC" dungeon, even on normal takes hours with PUG. Especially when some queue with fake healers, yet they cannot even do damage.
These kind of issues justify leaving and re-queuing for a different group. It is often faster to just requeue, especially if the group you are leaving was struggling through a DLC. If you got pretty good or okay-ish DPS and also play a tank, you can just tell when the DPS are duds that are just light attacking with a bow. No amount of coaching is going to drastically improve the run and any time explaining rotations in chat can be better served by starting your new group search.
I understand people are up in arms about "fake tanks", but many of the groups I join as a real tank probably actually deserve a fake tank, since they are often fake DPS and fake healers. I hate to say it, but I started putting a VMA destro staff on my backbar and sometimes the light attacking has been outdamaging the DPS in vet dungeons. Maybe DPS checks need to be implemented at this point to move things along.
If you can't break 10k on a dummy then do you really need to force people to carry you through vet Marches of Sacrifice because you want to see how a Balorgh helmet looks on your toon? Get real.
Edited by thanoscopter on December 16, 2018 1:39AM2 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think an option to filter DLC dungeons would solve a lot of the problems.
I get the attitude of the OP. It sucks to end up on a training run when you just wanted a quick dungeon, but that is the nature of the random group finder. Getting to cherry pick your groups would just lead to the disappointment of newer players since their queue would never pop once a tank saw they were low CP...
Besides that is discouraging newer players really healthy for the game? Consider these runs community service for the betterment of the game's community, or drop out and take the 15 minute penalty for being a bad citizen.
Playing since beta...4 -
NoMoreChillies✭✭✭✭✭
✭separate dungeons into tiers
then anyone has to clear 1st tier to be able to queue for 2nd tier, clear 2nd and queue for 3rd etc.
This way ppl know what they are getting into. Tanks/Healers/DPS all on same page.Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.7 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Allowing tanks to preview/decline groups they aren't interested in isnt actually going to do a whole lot to help the groups using Groupfinder who need a tank.
I mean, it'll be great for the tank. Tanks get to dungeon-surf until they get their easy-peasy run. But it'll suck for anyone looking for a tank to run DLC dungeons.
Due to the amount of people queuing who are clueless, wanting a carry and unwilling to learn then at least allow the ability to NOT queue for dlc or partially completed dungeons for everyone. That would be an amazing start for all people using finder.
That would be a great quality of life choice...except for the people in the group trying to fill an slot in the party. Which is one of the express purposes of having a Groupfinder in the first place.
Your suggestion would essentially mean that for most groups, losing a party member for any reason on any dungeon means they have to wait a long time or might as well quit the dungeon and try again from the beginning.3 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I often wonder if all these awesome tanks who have to put up with filthy casuals not understanding mechanics ever explain the mechanics to said scrubs, or are instead in too much of a rush to complain on the interwebs.6 -
Delsanab14_ESO✭✭✭✭I've decided that I'm just going to become a tank, learn to tank, research tanking, and either fail or not at it, but I'll never complain about the team.Account: @Delsana
FREE CRAFTING (NA PC) SIDENOTE: Hel'phaer is a Grand Master Crafter with almost every motif (excluding Buoyant, Meridian, Coldsnap, Grim Harlequin, Tsaesci, Pellitine, and Elder Argonian because can't afford it) and will craft attractive quality and visually appealing training gear or combat sets for those interested. FREE gear for players below CP 160 (equivalent level of 210), and paid gear in some form from those CP 160 or higher.2 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭I often wonder if all these awesome tanks who have to put up with filthy casuals not understanding mechanics ever explain the mechanics to said scrubs, or are instead in too much of a rush to complain on the interwebs.
Usually when I tank, I give people a little pause before boss so whoever don't know the mechanic can speak up. Usually, no one speak up. Then when they failed to do the mechanic, I ask if they know the mechanics for this boss, half of them said they do. I pointed out what they did wrong that lead to the wipe. Yet again, they keep failing.
But I disagree with the OP idea. Either leave group or run with premade or queue specific.Edited by TheDarkShadow on December 16, 2018 4:34AM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.
Oh, I understand their issue. It's pure toxicity.
They don't want to get matched in with players who don't meet their exacting, and unrealistic, demands. They're asking for the ability to play kingmaker in the random vet queue; because, as the tank, their time is more valuable than the mere mortals queuing for DPS.
You are correct, but also miss one important aspect.
Why do they need the GF. Pretty much any decent tank can easily get into a decent guild and never has to worry about the GF. That is pretty much the case for any decent player regardless of role. So why do they need the GF so bad?4 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Better idea: make tanking something people want to do, and not something you need to carry 5+ sets for. That'd be a great start in the right direction.7 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭I don't really understand why the OP is using the Group Finder in the first place. Most of my chars are tanks and I mainly team up with people from my friends list, or the guild, people are always looking for decent tanks.
I do from time to time use the Finder but I make sure I go in with a hybrid tank that can also deal high damage, self-heal, and solo the content if required. Such a jack of all trades can complete nearly all 4 man content in the game anyway, as it's so easy. The exception being some of the newer vDLC dungeons.
So I don't see that this is a problem at all for the majority of players, who are in guilds anyway, and the OP's 'preview' suggestion would only add to/create such a problem anyway.Edited by FlyingSwan on December 16, 2018 5:45AM1 -
thanoscopter✭✭✭The vet Tempest Island I just did had a CP 200 player with 22k hp without food buff and queued as a DPS. I noticed he was also using a sword and shield and taunting stuff off of me. I advised him to not taunt because I am the one who correctly queued and am the rightful tank of the group. He continues to taunt. The CP 810 DPS doing 75% of group damage gave no tips or advice, he just expressed how he was most of the damage. I mean, none of us could really improve this guy's play no matter what we said, he wouldn't even stop taunting when I asked nicely and he just said "Sorry, bla bla bla".
Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE. I figure it's quicker to just keep DPSing than rez this fellow again. I doubt he was using a useful set like Torug's anyway on his fake DPS. Pretty much did the whole dungeon with 3 anyway. At no point did any of us initiate a votekick but we were all clearly strongly considering it.
Honestly, if the second DPS wasn't able to hard carry and make it a somewhat fast run I would have been so out of there shortly after seeing the S&B and taunting off the tank. There needs to be some sort of filter against players like the above queuing for vet dungeons. Imagine if both DPS were doing what he did...the first trash pull would take 5 minutes.
Tips, advice and mechanics only can do so much for certain players...if they don't got the foundation aka basics, you're just wasting your time trying to teach.
Edited by thanoscopter on December 16, 2018 7:29AM6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭thanoscopter wrote: »Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE. I figure it's quicker to just keep DPSing than rez this fellow again.
My thought was why res him to begin with.
I do not do it to be rude but sometimes those I run with, we queue with only 3 of us just to see what we get. If the pug is an issue and they die I tell my group not to res them. It is not intended to be rude but the best use of our time. I have yet to have anyone complain about that. If anything we are thanked for our clear and for explaining the fights.3 -
Delsanab14_ESO✭✭✭✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »I often wonder if all these awesome tanks who have to put up with filthy casuals not understanding mechanics ever explain the mechanics to said scrubs, or are instead in too much of a rush to complain on the interwebs.
Usually when I tank, I give people a little pause before boss so whoever don't know the mechanic can speak up. Usually, no one speak up. Then when they failed to do the mechanic, I ask if they know the mechanics for this boss, half of them said they do. I pointed out what they did wrong that lead to the wipe. Yet again, they keep failing.
But I disagree with the OP idea. Either leave group or run with premade or queue specific.thanoscopter wrote: »The vet Tempest Island I just did had a CP 200 player with 22k hp without food buff and queued as a DPS. I noticed he was also using a sword and shield and taunting stuff off of me. I advised him to not taunt because I am the one who correctly queued and am the rightful tank of the group. He continues to taunt. The CP 810 DPS doing 75% of group damage gave no tips or advice, he just expressed how he was most of the damage. I mean, none of us could really improve this guy's play no matter what we said, he wouldn't even stop taunting when I asked nicely and he just said "Sorry, bla bla bla".
Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE. I figure it's quicker to just keep DPSing than rez this fellow again. I doubt he was using a useful set like Torug's anyway on his fake DPS. Pretty much did the whole dungeon with 3 anyway. At no point did any of us initiate a votekick but we were all clearly strongly considering it.
Honestly, if the second DPS wasn't able to hard carry and make it a somewhat fast run I would have been so out of there shortly after seeing the S&B and taunting off the tank. There needs to be some sort of filter against players like the above queuing for vet dungeons. Imagine if both DPS were doing what he did...the first trash pull would take 5 minutes.
Tips, advice and mechanics only can do so much for certain players...if they don't got the foundation aka basics, you're just wasting your time trying to teach.
For all you know that was a dog typing on a keyboard and it just happened to smash the keys well enough to use some abilities and talk. This might have been either the highlight of its day or it could have been the most boring part of its day. I mean it probably was trying to get to Moonkeep to see all the BIG FURRY WEREWOLFOS.
That's my take on it. Also I want to take this time to say that the word combination "DPSing" bothers me as it's Damage Per Second-ing." But alas...
Also any DPS that has to tell others that they are indeed doing most of the damage should perhaps focus more on the dps, they're clearly not doing the most they could be if they're also taking the time to brag about it.
Account: @Delsana
FREE CRAFTING (NA PC) SIDENOTE: Hel'phaer is a Grand Master Crafter with almost every motif (excluding Buoyant, Meridian, Coldsnap, Grim Harlequin, Tsaesci, Pellitine, and Elder Argonian because can't afford it) and will craft attractive quality and visually appealing training gear or combat sets for those interested. FREE gear for players below CP 160 (equivalent level of 210), and paid gear in some form from those CP 160 or higher.3 -
thanoscopter✭✭✭thanoscopter wrote: »Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE. I figure it's quicker to just keep DPSing than rez this fellow again.
My thought was why res him to begin with.
I do not do it to be rude but sometimes those I run with, we queue with only 3 of us just to see what we get. If the pug is an issue and they die I tell my group not to res them. It is not intended to be rude but the best use of our time. I have yet to have anyone complain about that. If anything we are thanked for our clear and for explaining the fights.
I rezzed him purely out of sympathy and hoping he would learn some mechanics. I actually would have rezzed him an unlimited amount of times if he was more respectful, took off his sword & board and stopped taunting...but he just wanted to be hard carried I think.
Well, at least you don't vote kick em either, I think not rezzing them is a good solution and maybe some incentive for them to improve.1 -
FlyingSwan✭✭✭✭✭thanoscopter wrote: »The vet Tempest Island I just did had a CP 200 player with 22k hp without food buff and queued as a DPS. I noticed he was also using a sword and shield and taunting stuff off of me. I advised him to not taunt because I am the one who correctly queued and am the rightful tank of the group. He continues to taunt. The CP 810 DPS doing 75% of group damage gave no tips or advice, he just expressed how he was most of the damage. I mean, none of us could really improve this guy's play no matter what we said, he wouldn't even stop taunting when I asked nicely and he just said "Sorry, bla bla bla".
Final boss comes, DPS S&B guy is still taunting, dies to boss early into fight. I'm only one who bothers to rez him. Guy dies again 10 seconds later to an AOE.
Was no point rezzing that char, he was a burden alive due to the taunting, at least dead he couldn't cause chaos.
In fairness, vet Tempest Island does not need a 'tank' in the true sense of the word. Any of the base ESO vet dungeons can be 'tanked' by a DPS slotting a taunt (or preferably both) to control the fights and then contributing to damage in a significant way.
The fact that 90% of the group content in the game does not need hard and fast roles, is a significant factor in the outcome that tanks are quite a rare commodity.
Edited by FlyingSwan on December 16, 2018 7:57AM2 -
Riverlynn✭✭✭✭
Giving tanks a preview would in effect make them rarer - certain tanks would just keep previewing groups until they found the one with the 'perfect' set-up.
Thus everyone else would still be tankless - but who cares about them as long as 'you get yours', right?
Seems this solution would benefit a few elitist tanks, and few others.
If I pug with any of my tanks (currently three of them), then I accept the bad with the good. That is, for me at least, the very definition of pugging. It's random - you're thrown together with strangers and left to make the best of it. Now me, I like that - I like the challenge that it sometimes presents, I like meeting new players and I've made some friends doing it.
If you don't like that - then play in a cosy bubble of cherry-picked players of your choice...but please don't suggest the pug game be changed to fit YOUR preferences.My accountant told me to invest my money in bonds. So I bought 100 copies of Goldfinger.
Unicorns and cannonballs, palaces and piers
Trumpets, towers and tenements, wide oceans full of tears.
Flags, rags ferryboats, scimitars and scarves
Every precious dream and vision, underneath the stars.6 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I keep seeing the complaint about low cp players in vet random dlc dungeons. Someone posted they had a cp20 in there...
How?
I thought Zos put a cap at 300 cp on queuing for these dungeons.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/408597/veteren-dlc-dungeons-require-you-to-be-cp300
I think someone's exaggerating to make a point...
Not that cp is any indication of skill. If anything, the cap proves it's not. But why exaggerate?Edited by Kel on December 16, 2018 9:47AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why would anyone tank?Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »As someone with multiple tanks I just do not understand the issue OP is having.
Oh, I understand their issue. It's pure toxicity.
They don't want to get matched in with players who don't meet their exacting, and unrealistic, demands. They're asking for the ability to play kingmaker in the random vet queue; because, as the tank, their time is more valuable than the mere mortals queuing for DPS.
By your conclusion, rather than helping the situation, you exacerbate the situation via your assumptions and projections.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.3 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭thanoscopter wrote: »Not going to beat around the bush here. If you use Dungeon Finder it's clear that DPS and healers are waiting around in queue for a tank in order to start. As a tank, with numerous tanks on my account, I have taken the option to leave groups with issues since I can just log on a different tank and "try again". Still, I do find myself being thrown in the same exact dead end dungeon even up to 15-30 minutes later, which emphasizes how severe this shortage really is.
Low CP group trying to do DLC? I'll pass. Combined group DPS looking suspect on the first pull of a Vet Dungeon? I'm out of there. Partially cleared dungeon and/or struggling on a boss which resulted in previous tank leaving? Unless I want a drop, no amount of sweet talking in the first 10 seconds is retaining my services.
If nothing about this is done the leaving will continue and I'm sure there will be even more "fake tanks" that I see players raging about on these forums. The tanking shortage is a huge issue that most players are out of touch with because clearly most players aren't tanks. Tanks basically have a near instant queue all day and every day precisely because very little people play tanks and therefore understand the issues.
I propose that tanks, especially paying ESO+ members who have to deal with DLC randoms, be given a dungeon preview. I would want to see which dungeon, if it is partially completed, the time the players have been in there and the CP levels. This would give incentive to more tanks and get the potential groups in limbo actually moving. Let tanks decline these potential dungeons if we aren't comfortable with them.
I'd rather spend an extra 5 minutes finding a group that shows promise than being instantly thrown into a mess half the time. One thing is for sure, giving us a 15 minute cooldown for leaving a weak group is not helping move things along in Dungeon Finder, it is quite the opposite actually.
WutIngame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!0 -
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I often wonder if all these awesome tanks who have to put up with filthy casuals not understanding mechanics ever explain the mechanics to said scrubs, or are instead in too much of a rush to complain on the interwebs.
We do try to teach the mechanics. But to what end? I have no issue get some new guild players and go through a dungeon mechanics for as long as it takes.
However I have issue when some players, do not speak at all when you ask if they know the mechanics. They wipe or doing things against the mechanics, yet they complain that the team isn't working.
Hell, I was running (as Tank) normal Cloudrest yesterday, and while the team was half way coming from Silaeda to Z'Maja, two attacked Z'Maja guardians, and both died to the spiders. Immediately asked who's going for portal and only one healer answered.
After the wipe people complaining about it, yet had to force 3 of the DDs to go down to the portal.
I was the lowest CP at 488 (playing since April 2014 but casually). The majority were CP600+
After that on the consequtive 6 runs of the trial, I had already organised the people for portal before even Galenwe was pulled.
I am no "expert", still learning, however have bothered to spend 15 minutes to see how my toon is working, how supposed to, and how suits my playstyle because of XYZ reason. (not everyone was born with 4 hands....).
Example. on my Khajiit Stamplar (DD), I use Shrouded Daggers instead of Deadly Cloak because suits me better, and I do not have to open potions every few seconds to keep up Major Brutality.
Same applies to my tank. If I see the team is using only light attacks, I switch the Imperium set with Galenwe, boosting the team dps by 30-35%Better idea: make tanking something people want to do, and not something you need to carry 5+ sets for. That'd be a great start in the right direction.
I have 2 tanks. One because "it was advisable" to have an Imperial DK tank some time (3 1/2y) back from my old guild, the other because I prefer Templars and Khajiit. (having 3 Khajiit Templars atm).
The Imperial DK true, is tough and a beast to die, though it provides 0 utility to the team compared to the Khajiit Templar tank.
Is the most boring toon I have.
The Templar on the other hand, can heal and regen Stamina, purge (ritual), can add to the damage output (in normal dungeons), yet is tough enough to pull through anything thrown at him even at most trials. And I mean anything.
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