Magblade and Magwarden DPS Need Group Utility

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

Currently these two builds bring almost nothing to a group. Let’s compare to other classes:

Mag Sorc:
Minor Intellect
Minor Prophecy
Major Berserk Synergy
Conduit Synergy
Off Healing from Self Heal (Twilight Matriarch)

Mag Templar:
Minor Sorcery
Resources from Shards
Synergies from Shards and Purify
Off Healing from DPS skills (Ritual of Retribution)
Off Healing from Self Heal (BoL)

Mag DK:
Engulfing Flames 10% Fire Dmg
Major Sorcery
Minor Brutality
Note: Mag DK is also relatively useless since Sorcery is given by potions and brutality is only useful in groups with Stamina DPS, but engulfing is so good it makes up for these.

Now what does Magblade bring? No off healing (after last patch) and their one group heal cannot be used as a self heal. Minor Savagery, which is often useless since nobody brings stamina DPS to newer trials. They bring no synergies for Alkosh.

Magwarden: While the class has a lot of group buffing capability, none of these are tied to DPS skills. Frost Cloak is nice for the group Major Ward and Resolve, but slotting and casting it is a significant DPS loss (and it only hits 6/12 players in a trial). They can technically supply Minor Intellect and Endurance, but again it’s on a skill that no DPS should be using. After last update it seems like they are intended to be the supplier of Minor Toughness, but that implies they must be off healing the group and none of their DPS skills provide off healing. The closest would be Lotus, but it only heals one player per second and cannot reliably keep Toughness on a full group, and it is also a DPS loss. They typically offer no synergies and provide no off-healing.

The only things Magwarden and Magblades have going for them are Major Protection ultimates (which are also a DPS loss and are typically not slotted) and the ability to use Master Architect efficiently for Major Slayer (which is not a class buff, and other classes can also utilize the set).

I would really like to see a change so that at least one (preferably a few) Magwarden is beneficial to a group optimization. And that Magblades are useful for more than just pulling high single target DPS.

SaintSubwayy · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Mag DK:
Engulfing Flames 10% Fire Dmg
Major Sorcery
Minor Brutality
Note: Mag DK is also relatively useless since Sorcery is given by potions and brutality is only useful in groups with Stamina DPS, but engulfing is so good it makes up for these.

DK DD's provide as nothing as Magden and Magblade.

EVERY Skill you lited is provided by the Tank (or Potions, Major Sorcery) , so MagDK nor StamDK provide something usefull in group Ulitlity

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Mag DK:
Engulfing Flames 10% Fire Dmg
Major Sorcery
Minor Brutality
Note: Mag DK is also relatively useless since Sorcery is given by potions and brutality is only useful in groups with Stamina DPS, but engulfing is so good it makes up for these.

DK DD's provide as nothing as Magden and Magblade.

EVERY Skill you lited is provided by the Tank (or Potions, Major Sorcery) , so MagDK nor StamDK provide something usefull in group Ulitlity

Yes, that is often true. The only reason to bring a MagDK is if you do a single tank trial with a Warden tank. They’re close to making my list, but they technically do have 1 DPS skill that helps the group. Wardens and nightblades have 0.

Edit: I guess I’m also viewing this more from a ranged DPS viewpoint for vCR and vAS. I’ve given up on melee in those trials because numerous mechanics discourage it.

Dr3sden · December 2018

There's an easy soultion...spell crafting....

Masel · December 2018

Dr3sden wrote: »

There's an easy soultion...spell crafting....

Thats Not a Solution. With spellcrafting all classes could access the same skills, so it would result in the same scenario that we have now. These discrepancies can only be solved through utility that can be brought by dds and by dds only.

Dr3sden · December 2018

Masel wrote: »

Dr3sden wrote: »

There's an easy soultion...spell crafting....

Thats Not a Solution. With spellcrafting all classes could access the same skills, so it would result in the same scenario that we have now. These discrepancies can only be solved through utility that can be brought by dds and by dds only.

Instead of trying to mess with a system that is already broken it's time to build on top of situation.

People are gradually showing signs they don't like what is offered. There's not enough utility to be competitive. There's stamina dps feeling like ever other stamina dps in game. There's Sorcs without enough secondary effects on skills. Nightblades without synergies.

So why I proposed spell crafting is to give people what they truly want is to feel different and have unique not every might have. As such my verision is you have to Hunting and discover spells. Think of it like runes but crafting spells. There are many benefits to my proposal.

First you could give some rare spell runes as quest rewards or hidden during quests. This solved that issue about end game players hating questions or thinking overland content is a waste of time.

Second it is fashion scrolls online people like collecting and hoarding things and like feeling if they wanted to they could still do this too.

Turn cp system into a spell rune store where you can craft new things for it.

You can keep adding skill lines but it won't solve issues for people. Like nightblades...and x want utility but skill lines can be easily hard by anyone. Spell crafting would take work, gold, time, and real effort for people.

It would renew zones and get people to buy dlc content. Have spell runes hidden throughout or part of something like quests, rare dailies.

Also cause I am cruel make the runes degrade overtime of not used or put in a store. This will keep content fresh.

Make a super rare ruin kit to repair degrading runes

My idea fits the target audience so it will reach people on emotional level.
Most of ESO layers like to explore and express creativity. This can be supported by extreme solo population in game and previous pills or information shared on forum and in game about players. Also housing and fashion do so well because creative people. Also let's not forget the play as you want party.

md3788 · December 2018

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

md3788 wrote: »

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

Not by much this patch. It’s about on par with Magplar. Still way ahead of Sorc and Warden.

md3788 · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

Not by much this patch. It’s about on par with Magplar. Still way ahead of Sorc and Warden.

Assuming MagPlar can sit in combat prayer 100% of the fight

Taleof2Cities · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

Not by much this patch. It’s about on par with Magplar. Still way ahead of Sorc and Warden.

I think you're missing the big picture, here, @WrathOfInnos.

Which is not all classes are created equally depending on your role (i.e. class diversity).

It's OK that MagWarden and Magblade don't bring group utility in the DPS role ... because they definitely bring those intangibles in other roles (tank, healer, PvP).

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

md3788 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

Not by much this patch. It’s about on par with Magplar. Still way ahead of Sorc and Warden.

Assuming MagPlar can sit in combat prayer 100% of the fight

Slimecraw works just fine in places like vAS+2. Here was my run a few nights ago, with no combat prayer. I only know a handful of nightblades that can beat that, and when I play nightblade I do significantly worse.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

MagBlade does bring one thing to the group. Highest ranged DPS

Not by much this patch. It’s about on par with Magplar. Still way ahead of Sorc and Warden.

I think you're missing the big picture, here, @WrathOfInnos.

Which is not all classes are created equally depending on your role (i.e. class diversity).

It's OK that MagWarden and Magblade don't bring group utility in the DPS role ... because they definitely bring those intangibles in other roles (tank, healer, PvP).

Well its obviously just my opinion, but Magblade is typically best suited for DPS, not healing or tanking. And historically it was the DPS role with the most group support, to the point where 6-7 magblades were preferred for vAS and vCR because they gave so much off-healing. Now it is suddenly lacking all of that, and personally I have not enjoyed magblade at all this patch. It is a build that only supports itself, and I much prefer bringing some group synergy.

Warden is a different story, in that they really do excel at tanking and healing. Still, its been a long-running pain point that magwarden DPS adds nothing to a trial group. It briefly looked like there was a chance to correct this, but the Minor Toughness change really missed the mark, and the bear DPS nerf actually made them even less wanted in trials (the other buffs did not make up for it).

Edited: Replaced parse with a better example

MLGProPlayer · December 2018

At least Magblade provides top DPS. Magden gives you zero utility and lower DPS than any other class. They have a ton of utility, but like you said, slotting any of it is a DPS loss (and their DPS is already in the gutter).

Tasear · December 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

At least Magblade provides top DPS. Magden gives you zero utility and lower DPS than any other class. They have a ton of utility, but like you said, slotting any of it is a DPS loss (and their DPS is already in the gutter).

Maybe the bigger question is why is dps amount wiegted so high for success over utility on game design...

Liofa · December 2018

Magblade does have utility. Magblade allows healer to not run Combat Prayer. They have the best ultigen of all DD classes and an extremely cheap Ultimate to give Major Slayer that also increases their damage by a ton, unlike Templar ultimate.

MagWarden is the only class that can bring Major Slayer effectively from range, still bad though, that I agree with. They don't bring much else. If only Warden DDs had a way to give Toughness to allies reliably. We tried Lotus and Orb synergy. They are meh at best.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Magblade does have utility. Magblade allows healer to not run Combat Prayer.

That is an interesting point, that magblade DPS can effectively give the healer an extra skill slot. However this is a double edged sword. If I’m on my Sorc in a group full of nightblades, it is pretty common for combat prayer to be determined unnecessary, which means I have to use Slimecraw and lose the damage from Zaan or Ilambris.

If I’m in a group with a few Sorcs and Templars then I get combat prayer, as well as 100% Minor Prophecy and Sorcery and an endless supply of shards. Every Nightblade added to the group slightly reduces each player’s DPS.

To put it another way, if a Magblade wanted to try to maximize their DPS, they would surround themselves with Sorcs and Templars. Every additional Nightblade by their side means less synergies and lower buff uptimes.

Iskiab · December 2018

You guys are living in the past, how are magblades top ranged dps? It's been a while since other classes got buffed a bit putting them on par with magblade.

Iskiab · December 2018

Actually thinking about it I'll go further. I see little reason to play magblade since magtemplar offers everything a magblade does plus aoe dps and group healing.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

Iskiab wrote: »

Actually thinking about it I'll go further. I see little reason to play magblade since magtemplar offers everything a magblade does plus aoe dps and group healing.

Yeah pretty much this. From Clockwork City until Murkmire Magblades were high DPS and helped the group with Funnel Health and Refreshing Path. These off-heals took some pressure off healers and tanks, allowing better buff and debuff uptimes.

Post-Murkmire Magblade lost enough sustain that it isn’t much different than Templar DPS, and Funnel and Refreshing were changed to be incompatible with dealing damage. My magblades are currently gathering dust, and I’m glad we can rearrange characters now so they are far down the list.

IMO we only see so many Magblades around because the meta hasn’t caught up with the most recent patch. Similar to how Sorcs were popular long after their glory days of One Tamriel and homestead. It takes awhile for people to level and learn new classes.

Magwarden has been in this situation a long time.

royo · December 2018

It isn't that the meta hasn't caught up to magplars, it's that the best players have tried both and top magblades are still pulling better numbers in most situations.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

royo wrote: »

It isn't that the meta hasn't caught up to magplars, it's that the best players have tried both and top magblades are still pulling better numbers in most situations.

@royo Their individual DPS is good, especially single target and even more noticeably in vAS or on target skeletons where other classes don’t get Minor Berserk. My argument is that they contribute nothing to Alkosh uptime, group sustain, healing or Magicka DPS buffs. And in anything other than perfectly controlled environments (where minimal damage is taken and all buffs/debuffs have 100% uptime) I don’t believe that the all magblade meta holds true this patch.

royo · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

royo wrote: »

It isn't that the meta hasn't caught up to magplars, it's that the best players have tried both and top magblades are still pulling better numbers in most situations.

@royo Their individual DPS is good, especially single target and even more noticeably in vAS or on target skeletons where other classes don’t get Minor Berserk. My argument is that they contribute nothing to Alkosh uptime, group sustain, healing or Magicka DPS buffs. And in anything other than perfectly controlled environments (where minimal damage is taken and all buffs/debuffs have 100% uptime) I don’t believe that the all magblade meta holds true this patch.

Are you talking about vAS? There's always been a sorc interrupter of course, the best of whom are pulling over 40k AoE. The best magblades are over 40k single on olms alone, and well over 50k in AoE. I haven't seen a magplar break 35k single on Olms. They aren't meta in vAS. Viable? Certainly. A good choice for a lot of groups? Yes.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

royo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

royo wrote: »

It isn't that the meta hasn't caught up to magplars, it's that the best players have tried both and top magblades are still pulling better numbers in most situations.

@royo Their individual DPS is good, especially single target and even more noticeably in vAS or on target skeletons where other classes don’t get Minor Berserk. My argument is that they contribute nothing to Alkosh uptime, group sustain, healing or Magicka DPS buffs. And in anything other than perfectly controlled environments (where minimal damage is taken and all buffs/debuffs have 100% uptime) I don’t believe that the all magblade meta holds true this patch.

Are you talking about vAS? There's always been a sorc interrupter of course, the best of whom are pulling over 40k AoE. The best magblades are over 40k single on olms alone, and well over 50k in AoE. I haven't seen a magplar break 35k single on Olms. They aren't meta in vAS. Viable? Certainly. A good choice for a lot of groups? Yes.

@royo Single target Olms in vAS is kind of a tricky measurement though. Any class is capable of 40k+ single target if they have ideal buffs and debuffs, never have to focus minis and if protectors die quickly minimizing the shield duration on Olms. It’s the players doing splash damage and focusing minis when required that allow the single target parsers to get their high numbers without wiping to mechanics. Now your group is pretty OP, so maybe you guys are ignoring minis for the most part, in which case I agree that NB is highest single target. And they should probably all wear Spell Strat if splash is not a concern.

usmcjdking · December 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Magblade does have utility. Magblade allows healer to not run Combat Prayer. They have the best ultigen of all DD classes and an extremely cheap Ultimate to give Major Slayer that also increases their damage by a ton, unlike Templar ultimate.

MagWarden is the only class that can bring Major Slayer effectively from range, still bad though, that I agree with. They don't bring much else. If only Warden DDs had a way to give Toughness to allies reliably. We tried Lotus and Orb synergy. They are meh at best.

Trellis on tank.

royo · December 2018

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

royo wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

royo wrote: »

It isn't that the meta hasn't caught up to magplars, it's that the best players have tried both and top magblades are still pulling better numbers in most situations.

@royo Their individual DPS is good, especially single target and even more noticeably in vAS or on target skeletons where other classes don’t get Minor Berserk. My argument is that they contribute nothing to Alkosh uptime, group sustain, healing or Magicka DPS buffs. And in anything other than perfectly controlled environments (where minimal damage is taken and all buffs/debuffs have 100% uptime) I don’t believe that the all magblade meta holds true this patch.

Are you talking about vAS? There's always been a sorc interrupter of course, the best of whom are pulling over 40k AoE. The best magblades are over 40k single on olms alone, and well over 50k in AoE. I haven't seen a magplar break 35k single on Olms. They aren't meta in vAS. Viable? Certainly. A good choice for a lot of groups? Yes.

@royo Single target Olms in vAS is kind of a tricky measurement though. Any class is capable of 40k+ single target if they have ideal buffs and debuffs, never have to focus minis and if protectors die quickly minimizing the shield duration on Olms. It’s the players doing splash damage and focusing minis when required that allow the single target parsers to get their high numbers without wiping to mechanics. Now your group is pretty OP, so maybe you guys are ignoring minis for the most part, in which case I agree that NB is highest single target. And they should probably all wear Spell Strat if splash is not a concern.

It's becoming apparent to me that perhaps we define meta differently. Magplars are good and more people should play them. However, I can assure you that not every class is capable of 40k single on Olms.

tmbrinks · December 2018

magplar DPS really doesn't bring all that much group utility either. If they are running BoL, they are losing DPS. The ritual for a synergy is already being run by the group healer (in vCR), possibly tank healer (in vAS). The shards that the DPS throw are the Blazing Spear morph, i.e. the "bad" ones that only restore 1 resource pool (plus they share the cooldown with orbs). Minor Sorcery, if it's not up 100% from your healer running PotL or another dawns wrath skill every 20 seconds, they're bad... bad bad.

If you don't have a templar healer, which many groups still do, there is some utility there, but at a significant dps loss.

magblades can essentially be self sufficient, they don't need CP, so they can spread out in vAS, running funnel can provide self-heals, plus they make up for lack of group buffs by doing more dps. As you said, a magplar can be very close to a magblade, but they are realistically not providing any group benefit that isn't already there with a templar healer (who will do it much better)

magwarden dps is atrocious, I agree. But having a templar/warden combination on healers provides those buffs.

idk · December 2018

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Mag DK:
Engulfing Flames 10% Fire Dmg
Major Sorcery
Minor Brutality
Note: Mag DK is also relatively useless since Sorcery is given by potions and brutality is only useful in groups with Stamina DPS, but engulfing is so good it makes up for these.

DK DD's provide as nothing as Magden and Magblade.

EVERY Skill you lited is provided by the Tank (or Potions, Major Sorcery) , so MagDK nor StamDK provide something usefull in group Ulitlity

Very true. It would be a bad Dk dps offering them.

Also NBs bring weapon crit iirc.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

I didn’t intend for this to become a magplar vs magblade DPS thread. Magplar is just a useful comparison since they are finally pulling good numbers this patch.

My real point is that the #1 DPS support class became tied for least support class, and seemingly everyone is fine with this.

tmbrinks · December 2018

I personally see it as a tradeoff. Provide the highest DPS and the lowest group utility. It seems as you go up the list of more group utility, you go down the list of DPS. Makes sense to me (magwarden excluded)

royo · December 2018

I think most of the score-pushing community is annoyed by the 8 stamblade full trial comps and the 6+ magblade mini trial comps.

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

royo wrote: »

I think most of the score-pushing community is annoyed by the 8 stamblade full trial comps and the 6+ magblade mini trial comps.

@royo Yes, that is definitely true. It would be great if there could be more benefit from diverse groups. I suppose any beneficial changes to nightblades are unlikely as long as they are the most popular DPS class. I just fear that the lag in mass player base adaptation will result in them being overnerfed patch after patch (just like Sorcs over the last year and a half).

As for defining meta, I’m sure many people have their own definitions. My take on it is that it has to consider multiple facets of the game. I feel like too often meta is interpreted as isolated performance, such as Nightblade single target DPS in this case. IMO if I can take a 5% DPS loss and boost the 7 DPS around me by 1% then it it worth doing. I think there’s also an element of making content easy as well. For example Ele Weapon is preferred over Crushing Shock for meta damage builds, but if that means 1-2 people die to mechanics that could’ve been interrupted I would say it’s not worth the sacrifice. Similarly, a pure DPS would maximize their numbers by using Ghastly Eye Bowl or green max stat food, but realistically a food with health is more effective.

I don’t consider a tactic that will lead to 1 lucky high score after 99 wipes to be meta. In my opinion there is an element of reliability and consistent smooth runs. In some trials this may mean a couple tri-glyphs to hit a safe health threshold, or slotting a shield even though it’s a DPS loss.

Anyway, not basing any of these examples at you personally, I don’t know you well enough to know your stance. I’m just contrasting my views with some I’ve heard in the end game community.

royo · December 2018

In PvE, meta is the group composition that provides the fastest full event clear with full vitality.