Magblade and Magwarden DPS Need Group Utility

WrathOfInnos

royo wrote: »

In PvE, meta is the group composition that provides the fastest full event clear with full vitality.

@royo Do you believe in any requirement of repeatability? Or is a low clear rate acceptable as long as it eventually results in one good pull?

royo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

royo wrote: »

In PvE, meta is the group composition that provides the fastest full event clear with full vitality.

@royo Do you believe in any requirement of repeatability? Or is a low clear rate acceptable as long as it eventually results in one good pull?

A group's goals, desires, and membership causes them to make decisions to adapt the meta or follow it. Or ignore it. If a certain group needs 3 runners backroom maw to have high percentage clears, that doesn't make it meta. Meta is merely what is optimal for maximum speed with full vitality. If a group has no stamblades, they adapt. If the group doesn't care about score or speed or vitality, they adapt. If a group wants IR and wants to wear phoenix, then they are free to do so. None of this changes the fact that as of right now, the meta for vAS dps is 7 magblades and a sorc. That being said, all 5 mag classes can put up 40k+ AoE in there and clear. The days of SockMonkey putting up world record scores with a Templar off-tank are gone, but that was certainly a meta comp at one point.

WrathOfInnos

@royo Fair enough, I don’t fully agree, but I can respect that point of view.

Your vMoL runner example is an interesting one. A good runner can clear back room solo with a little luck, but they can’t do it every time. That could be interpreted as meta, since it would result in the fastest time and highest score, but I would still say 2 runners would be the commonly accepted meta. And to your point, it would be unreasonable to call a 3 runner strat meta because it is widely accepted that 3 runners is unnecessary (despite the fact that there are 3 runner zones, and likely the dev’s intention).

royo

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@royo Fair enough, I don’t fully agree, but I can respect that point of view. Your vMoL runner example is an interesting one. A good runner can clear back room solo with a little luck, but they can’t do it every time. That could be interpreted as meta, since it would result in the fastest time and highest score, but I would still say 2 runners would be the commonly accepted meta. And to your point, it would be unreasonable to call a 3 runner strat meta because it is widely accepted that 3 runners is unnecessary (despite the fact that there are 3 runner zones, and likely the dev’s intention).

I mean, zero runners is the meta in maw this patch, but I see what you're saying.

WrathOfInnos

royo wrote: »

I mean, zero runners is the meta in maw this patch, but I see what you're saying.

Haha, true. I saw a video of that not too long ago, haven’t had the pleasure of doing a pad 3 burn yet myself.

troomar

Have someone mentioned stamSorcs? No? Ah, ok...

WrathOfInnos

troomar wrote: »

Have someone mentioned stamSorcs? No? Ah, ok...

@troomar What’s a stam sorc? I can’t remember seeing one in so long...

Jk, my first level 50 character was actually a stam sorc. He doesn’t get much use these days, mostly due to trial mechanics being anti-melee.

Just looking at vCR it seems like devs went out of f their way to make things hard on stamina. The biggest threat (spheres) will kill the group if you melee them. In the portal, safely getting to a jump pad means staying near the middle, not off in a far corner hitting crystals. Crushing darkness forces you out of melee range, hoarfrost sometimes forces you out if melee range, stacking in flares can even force you out if melee range sometimes. Not to mention ice rings, standards, creepers, one comets, burgeoning blaze, and everything else that forces movement away from a boss.

Stamina survival is also tough in new trials, where you have to do every mechanic with near perfection, and they still sometimes combine in ways that inevitably kill you (same for Magicka actually). Soon to get worse if the proposed Major Evasion nerf goes live next patch.

Melee have plenty of problems, but that’s a topic for another day.

WrathOfInnos

@tmbrinks What do you think of this hypothetical scenario: 4 Templar DPS in vCR. This means 4 shards are going out every 8s, in a neat little pile on the ZMaja’s tail. Everyone in the group can grab one on demand, every 24s. Suddenly orbs are not needed, no more chasing them, or watching their agonizingly slow movement toward the group. The healer gains a bar slot and plenty of new opportunities for things like Combat Prayer and Blood Altar.

One DPS can slot Ritual of Retribution. Maybe the 2 healers are now a Warden and a Sorc, with all of their unique skills and buffs. One of them throws Olo onto the shard pile, knowing every DPS will go there often.

This is just one possibility, I’m sure there are plenty of others that nobody has thought about yet. There are so many opportunities for groups to synergize, and it doesn’t have to be centered around support roles.

tmbrinks

@WrathOfInnos the problem with that is that orbs are the best heal in the game, along with being a synergy. They provide both a HoT, and a instant heal when synergized. I don't believe there is any getting around running orbs.

WrathOfInnos

tmbrinks wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos the problem with that is that orbs are the best heal in the game, along with being a synergy. They provide both a HoT, and a instant heal when synergized. I don't believe there is any getting around running orbs.

@tmbrinks I could be wrong, since I don’t heal often these days, but doesn’t 1 cast of springs still outheal 1 cast of orbs and cover a larger area? I thought orbs were only my highest source of healing received because everyone was so resource hungry they demand healers spam them.

tmbrinks

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

If you use the full health bonus, orbs only need to be up for 1 second to "outheal" healing springs. and for 4.5 seconds to "outheal" illustrious.

If the orb is in "contact" with the group for more than 4.5 seconds as they pass though (without being popped) they will "outheal" healing springs 1 cast to 1 cast.

WrathOfInnos

tmbrinks wrote: »

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

@tmbrinks Very interesting, I did not know they were outside of the healing target cap. In that case, one consequence of anyone grabbing a shard is that they cannot synergize an orb for 20s, and therefore the whole group misses out on the burst heal.

All this time I thought orbs were primarily a sustain tool, with a secondary bonus of healing, and now you’ve convinced me that is inverted, due to misleading and arbitrary target caps. Thanks for the info.

FakeFox

If you list matriarch for Magsorc you can list literally any class based healing skill as "off heal."

WrathOfInnos

FakeFox wrote: »

If you list matriarch for Magsorc you can list literally any class based healing skill as "off heal."

@FakeFox The outliers are Dark Cloak and Coagulating Blood. Specifically looking at Dark Cloak, which has become popular for running vCR portal, possibly the only place a self-heal is needed in trials. If you see the other runner is about to die, a Templar or Sorc can hit their self-heal to save them. Nightblades with Funnel and Refreshing used to be able to do the same, but this was effectively removed for everyone except Nightblade healers. Swallow soul is now popular, but it too heals only the caster. For a Nightblade to provide assistance to another runner they would need to slot an additional skill, Offering, which is disabled from use as a self heal.

FakeFox

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

If you list matriarch for Magsorc you can list literally any class based healing skill as "off heal."

@FakeFox The outliers are Dark Cloak and Coagulating Blood. Specifically looking at Dark Cloak, which has become popular for running vCR portal, possibly the only place a self-heal is needed in trials. If you see the other runner is about to die, a Templar or Sorc can hit their self-heal to save them. Nightblades with Funnel and Refreshing used to be able to do the same, but this was effectively removed for everyone except Nightblade healers. Swallow soul is now popular, but it too heals only the caster. For a Nightblade to provide assistance to another runner they would need to slot an additional skill, Offering, which is disabled from use as a self heal.

I see what you mean now. I personally see it as a non-issue. In any case for everyone except Magplar being able to heal other players is DPS loss and if you expect a Magsorc to use matriach you can just as well use funnel and refreshing on a Magblade. And even without the ability to heal other runners Magbaldes are still better then Magplar or Magsorc for this role as their clearspeed is superior.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

@tmbrinks Very interesting, I did not know they were outside of the healing target cap. In that case, one consequence of anyone grabbing a shard is that they cannot synergize an orb for 20s, and therefore the whole group misses out on the burst heal.

All this time I thought orbs were primarily a sustain tool, with a secondary bonus of healing, and now you’ve convinced me that is inverted, due to misleading and arbitrary target caps. Thanks for the info.

its not. only thing in the game that is, is minor life steal.

tmbrinks

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

@tmbrinks Very interesting, I did not know they were outside of the healing target cap. In that case, one consequence of anyone grabbing a shard is that they cannot synergize an orb for 20s, and therefore the whole group misses out on the burst heal.

All this time I thought orbs were primarily a sustain tool, with a secondary bonus of healing, and now you’ve convinced me that is inverted, due to misleading and arbitrary target caps. Thanks for the info.

its not. only thing in the game that is, is minor life steal.

Maybe I haven't noticed because of the sheer number of orbs, that they still end up hitting everybody, due to there being multiples in the group. Regardless, I still think orbs are superior to healing springs, if they have the same cap.

Can the orbs "change' targets as they move? so if only 6 are in range, it will hit all 6? But as it moves, if the ones in range change, will it hit those 6?

Thanks for the clarification.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

@tmbrinks Very interesting, I did not know they were outside of the healing target cap. In that case, one consequence of anyone grabbing a shard is that they cannot synergize an orb for 20s, and therefore the whole group misses out on the burst heal.

All this time I thought orbs were primarily a sustain tool, with a secondary bonus of healing, and now you’ve convinced me that is inverted, due to misleading and arbitrary target caps. Thanks for the info.

its not. only thing in the game that is, is minor life steal.

Maybe I haven't noticed because of the sheer number of orbs, that they still end up hitting everybody, due to there being multiples in the group. Regardless, I still think orbs are superior to healing springs, if they have the same cap.

Can the orbs "change' targets as they move? so if only 6 are in range, it will hit all 6? But as it moves, if the ones in range change, will it hit those 6?

Thanks for the clarification.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

they hit 6 every half second, so i understand why you would think they do pass the cap. yes, they act like you describe.

tmbrinks

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Healing springs is limited to hitting 6 people at a time still. Orbs are not. I think the dual utility of orbs will keep them the as the heal of choice. You are correct in that 1 tick of HS will out heal orbs, but it's only by a small amount, and orbs have a higher ceiling, especially if the healer can throw more than the dps use.

On my healer Healing Springs heals for 1848 per second for 4 ticks (Illustrious healing ups this to 1912 for 5 ticks)

Orbs will do 828 every 1/2 second (1656 a second) for up to 20 ticks
On them being synergized, they will burst for 5840 health.

In my opinion, orbs are superior.

@tmbrinks Very interesting, I did not know they were outside of the healing target cap. In that case, one consequence of anyone grabbing a shard is that they cannot synergize an orb for 20s, and therefore the whole group misses out on the burst heal.

All this time I thought orbs were primarily a sustain tool, with a secondary bonus of healing, and now you’ve convinced me that is inverted, due to misleading and arbitrary target caps. Thanks for the info.

its not. only thing in the game that is, is minor life steal.

Maybe I haven't noticed because of the sheer number of orbs, that they still end up hitting everybody, due to there being multiples in the group. Regardless, I still think orbs are superior to healing springs, if they have the same cap.

Can the orbs "change' targets as they move? so if only 6 are in range, it will hit all 6? But as it moves, if the ones in range change, will it hit those 6?

Thanks for the clarification.

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

they hit 6 every half second, so i understand why you would think they do pass the cap. yes, they act like you describe.

Yeah, they hit so rapidly, that I never noticed they only hit 6 at a time. There's also usually multiples in the group, so it feels like everybody is being hit at the same time.

kaithuzar

Before people figured out magblade rotation, magdk was pretty top dog for trials dps (2014-2015~ish), where do they sit now in comparison?
I would at least think magdk aoe dps should be higher.

tmbrinks

kaithuzar wrote: »

Before people figured out magblade rotation, magdk was pretty top dog for trials dps (2014-2015~ish), where do they sit now in comparison?
I would at least think magdk aoe dps should be higher.

magDK isn't bad at dps. They just have to be in melee range, and they are significantly worse than any Stamina class.

Some trials (vAS and vCR) are extremely difficult on melee players because of the movement involved. Fights that are not difficult on melee (vMoL, for example), the dps loss of a MagDK versus any Stam class is too much.