Tigerseye wrote: »

By the way, I will just add that I have bought two lots of these crates, in the past and a very kind friend bought me a third (as I liked the pets this month!).

I quite enjoy opening them, even though I won very little, both this time and last and had to buy 3 of the 4 pets I wanted, this time, with traded-in gems.

So, I'm not so opposed to them that I won't ever buy them.

In the case of people who are over 18, don't have a gambling problem and can limit themselves to what they can afford, they're actually quite a fun way of getting small things (like pets) you would have bought (for a reasonable price), anyway.

Problem is, some people clearly aren't over 18 and/or don't have much money and/or can't limit themselves and for those people, it is a constant temptation they can't easily avoid and (possibly) even the start of a lifelong gambling addiction.

I'm anti prohibition, but if you knew someone was an alcoholic, you wouldn't force them to have a bar permanently set-up in their living room, where they couldn't get away from it, would you?

Very well said.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

You just made me think of something. How come Pokémon cards is not gambling, or Magic the Gathering is not gambling, hockey, baseball cards? Is it gambling?

Collectable figure blind-boxes, those little toy capsules that come out of the machines at the grocery store entrance, Kinder eggs...

Back then in my child hood in the 1970s and 80s, we had baseball, hockey cards. Thing is, there was no "exclusives" that we must have. So we didn't buy more to get "what we want" than "what we didn't want".

Eh, there was wanting to get Your Favorite Player. Or that special Rookie Card. Or the last three cards to complete your set. Or...
(and then there were the collectors)





And hey! There's repeating dungeon runs because you want to break open the loot box boss at the end for a chance to get That Piece Of Gear You Really Need™. Doesn't cost anything, you say? Ah, but time has value. If your time is worth $X/hour, and it takes 30m per run, you're "spending" $X/2 on every random draw from the "box". I can't wait for Congress to pass a stupid feel-good law about loot boxes, with such vague wording that one of those class-action-suit factories ("20-inch monitors are actually 19.87 inches because of the bezel? OMG, so many customers have been Harmed™, we must sue to get everyone $1 in damages, and $50million in fees for ourselves!") can file a lawsuit against all gaming ever for addicting kids to random loot drops.

What are you talking about? What is your point? Gambling addiction is not a joke. Any addiction is not a joke. So why are you making lite of the situation? At first I thought you were mentioning what else could be considered gambling but then you turned it into a joke. So sorry I don't understand. If you are making a joke and trying to make a funny, you have insulted so many people where it's no joke. If it's not a joke or you trying to make a humours statement please explain but that went over my head.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Actually I rather think we need more self control as a society. Blaming companies for tempting you to buy things is diverting the blame from yourself. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Yes, Yes, yes let people drink and drive or do drugs and drive. Yes let more people get dependant on drugs or get addicted to gambling.

So why have bouncers at bars or adult places? Why limit

BahometZ wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

By the way, I will just add that I have bought two lots of these crates, in the past and a very kind friend bought me a third (as I liked the pets this month!).

I quite enjoy opening them, even though I won very little, both this time and last and had to buy 3 of the 4 pets I wanted, this time, with traded-in gems.

So, I'm not so opposed to them that I won't ever buy them.

In the case of people who are over 18, don't have a gambling problem and can limit themselves to what they can afford, they're actually quite a fun way of getting small things (like pets) you would have bought (for a reasonable price), anyway.

Problem is, some people clearly aren't over 18 and/or don't have much money and/or can't limit themselves and for those people, it is a constant temptation they can't easily avoid and (possibly) even the start of a lifelong gambling addiction.

I'm anti prohibition, but if you knew someone was an alcoholic, you wouldn't force them to have a bar permanently set-up in their living room, where they couldn't get away from it, would you?

Very well said.

Gambling advertisements and machines in my country are legislated to also have advertisements for help with gambling addiction, and are emphatically worded to address gambling as a problem, and to think about what you're doing.

I think it's probably the best approach, in that it allows those who do not have a problem to continue as per, and treats people like adults, while also reminding those who do have a problem to think about it, and offering them a solution to address it. If you got rid of gambling entirely, you're ruining enjoyment for the majority. If you did nothing, you're assisting the destruction of people's lives.

Methinks that companies like Zenimax have a very strong motivation to resist the move to label lootboxes as gambling, because then they might fall under a whole slew of gambling legislation like the above, and have to actually give a ***. Lawyers gonna lawyer.

So true. I agree with you 100% I am curious how the lawyers will deal with this.

From the Webster's Dictionary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling?src=search-dict-box

gamble verb

gam·​ble | \ˈgam-bəl


\
gambled; gambling\ˈgam-​b(ə-​)liŋ


\
Definition of gamble (Entry 1 of 2)
intransitive verb
1
a
: to play a game for money or property
b
: to bet on an uncertain outcome
2
: to stake something on a contingency (see contingency sense 1) : take a chance
transitive verb
1
: to risk by gambling : wager
2
: venture, hazard

gamble noun
Definition of gamble (Entry 2 of 2)
1
a
: an act having an element of risk
b
: something chancy
2
: the playing of a game of chance for stakes

Yes I know it's not law, so I wonder how the law really works? At least nobody can't say loot boxes is not gambling.

I mean in Ontario it's illegal unless we get written permission for the Lottery Gaming Commission to take in real money from gambling. Since Zenimax is taking in real money from people WHO buy loot boxes it should be illegal.

Now it's up to the lawyers to tell the governments why they shouldn't be regulated. To me the gaming industry found a way to "circumvent" the law but I don't think they circumvented the law at all, and actually broke it. Thing is the government didn't do anything about. Maybe now they will. Other wise anyone can have "loot boxes" and sell them for real money.

Is it sad that anything can be considered gambling? Yes. Who is to blame for kinder eggs to be considered gambling? The gaming industry. Still if the gaming industry, Zenimax were not greedy and preying on people's needs this wouldn't have happened. Thing is why are they doing it?

After all I asked Zenimax many times here on the forums, and never got an anser from them. What kind of business is Zenimax in? Maybe before they were in the business to make money from video games. Now that business has changed to making money through gambling with a video game.

After all if online slot machines is considered gambling and has to be regulated since REAL MONEY is being used, how come Elder Scrolls Online loot boxes are not? REAL MONEY needs to be used to buy online crates. We are gambling, taking a chance, taking a risk, playing a game for money, wagering, something chancy, playing a game of chance for stakes so it should be regulated.

After all we can't use "atoms" to bribe our way out. Bethesda's lawyers do not get paid in atoms so how come they tried and give their customers who give them real money fake currency as a bribe? (ok I needed to do that dig :P).

Seriously we can't use ESO gold to buy loot crates and by that I mean someone has to use actual money to buy loot crates to trade in game gold for it. We can't use in game gold to buy loot crates from Zenimax so, how is that not gambling with real money? It is gambling with real money, no ands if's or buts. Thing is how does the law describe it for each country/state/province?

Ackwalan wrote: »

ESO does not exploit gamers with gambling addictions, just like McDonalds does not exploit fat people with eating addictions. Stand up and take responsibility instead of blaming others.

You do realize that in some people it's not simply something where they can just stop gambling or stop eating too much. There are officially diagnosed mental health diseases from professionals in this matter.

Remag_Div wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

ESO does not exploit gamers with gambling addictions, just like McDonalds does not exploit fat people with eating addictions. Stand up and take responsibility instead of blaming others.

You do realize that in some people it's not simply something where they can just stop gambling or stop eating too much. There are officially diagnosed mental health diseases from professionals in this matter.

And the most successful addiction rehab programs teach those addicted folks that THEY are in control of they're own life. No one made them keeping drinking, no one made them do drugs, no one made them keep buying digitial bits. Once you own up to your own problems then you can begin to fix them.

Keep blaming other people, games, or companies and you'll end up right back into the compulsive behavior that started it all.

Take responsibility for yourself! You are the only person who can truly control your own actions. Once you can do that, then you can tackle that the temptation never really goes away but you learn to resist it and overcome it, but it begins and ends with YOU. (All "you" is meant figuratively, not directed at any one person of course)

Let me start by saying I am a Gambler's Therapeutic Counsellor (10 years tomorrow); degree in social work. The statements I make are my own opinions and not that of my organisation nor the body that funds us.

I would here for a while if I responded to some of the comments in this thread. I believe they lack an understanding on the topic and of human behaviour.

I believe everyone in our society (including companies & governments) have a responsibility to take care of those who walk among us that have reduced cognitive functioning/acquired brain injury. I also think it is somewhat unfair to single out gaming companies use of loot boxes when there are so many governments around the world addicted to the revenue they receive from gambling. Here is Australia I understand 7 to 10% of revenue received by our State Governments comes from the taxing of gambling activities.

You could argue for days whether loot boxes constitute gambling. However I believe they can result in people experiencing harms similar to those that partake in mainstream gambling activities. That said any urge can grow and results in harms. Urges are a natural part of our life otherwise we wouldn't drink, eat or have children, but given the right conditions any urge can get away on people. I have also worked with people who have experienced harms from urges related to alcohol, drugs, sex, food, chocolate (yes chocolate), and exercise.

I see gaming companies have 3 options to make revenue. Pay-to-win, monthly subscriptions, and loot boxes (please tell me if there are others). I am sure there forums would light up with a massive backlash if they went with options 1 or 2 to compensate for the removal of loot boxes.

A boss I once had said to me ' Come to me with solutions, not problems'.

My solution - Limit the monthly amount that can be spent on loot boxes and slightly increase the monthly subscription. Not perfect but could result in a reduction of harms.

on a related note, pacrooti needs to stop saying "sadly you have no more crates but you can purchase more" (or along those lines)

See this is what I don't get. People blame companies for their inability to control their addiction. By this logic a person who's addicted to eating it's being prayed upon by fast food and buffet chains? People simply need to learn to handle them selves and be adults. Not that I AGREE with loot boxes mind you.

Glurin wrote: »

Matchimus wrote: »

A boss I once had said to me ' Come to me with solutions, not problems'.

So you worked for a guy who had no understanding of the problem whatsoever and would just pick a solution based on nothing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s99ZeamF7J0

No. I would say 9 times out 10 he already knew the answer. He encouraged me to be a critical thinker. A skill you will never learn if someone else is always doing it for you.

If you're posting in this thread because you are genuinely concerned about gambling addiction (in games or in general) and the effects in can have on people, then kudos to you - it's a horrible problem that can destroy lives, both for the sufferers of the illness and their families and friends. There are a bunch of charities and organisations that you can donate money or time (or both) to, that do a lot to help.


If, however, you're posting here because you're outraged that you can't afford the latest round of shiny pixels in the store, and you're using a very real problem to validate your rage and disappointment, then shame on you - it's YOU, not ZOS, Zenimax/whoever, who are the real 'disgusting' people here. It's YOUR behaviour that is 'outrageous'.

As long I get a skin for dungeon cleaning (sticking with amberplasm daub forever), I dont need buy skin with money. Ppl like to show what they they did, not what they can purchase. I just buy creates 1 time per season. Why getting a mount that everyone will be using. Same as indrik stuff, i havent got any feather.

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Pretty sure Crown Crates are more like lottery tickets in that regard.

You buy a lottery ticket knowing fully-well that you will (most likely) get trash, but you still buy it in the hopes of it being good.

A car would be comparable to a DLC; you already know what you get. Crown Crates are randomized, we know this. just as we know lottery tickets have winning, and losing, numbers. You choose to buy one, it's a risk you took.

Tigerseye wrote: »

By the way, I will just add that I have bought two lots of these crates, in the past and a very kind friend bought me a third (as I liked the pets this month!).

I quite enjoy opening them, even though I won very little, both this time and last and had to buy 3 of the 4 pets I wanted, this time, with traded-in gems.

So, I'm not so opposed to them that I won't ever buy them.

In the case of people who are over 18, don't have a gambling problem and can limit themselves to what they can afford, they're actually quite a fun way of getting small things (like pets) you would have bought (for a reasonable price), anyway.

Problem is, some people clearly aren't over 18 and/or don't have much money and/or can't limit themselves and for those people, it is a constant temptation they can't easily avoid and (possibly) even the start of a lifelong gambling addiction.

I'm anti prohibition, but if you knew someone was an alcoholic, you wouldn't force them to have a bar permanently set-up in their living room, where they couldn't get away from it, would you?

If you aren't over 18...you shouldn't be playing this game anyway...and if you do choose to skirt the TOS...and have problems because of crates...well...I have enough problems in my real life...where that becomes the very least of my worries...