Siroria and Spell Strategist are ruining build diversity and class flavour

John_Falstaff · December 2018

@JobooAGS , actually, AY isn't the only viable choice for front bar. Veiled Heritance performs great there as well (and it's an overland set), Ravager for stamplars, and a lot of sets performing just a bit below meta. Besides, for people who don't have vMA bow the range is even wider (Leviathan will numerically give almost the same benefit as AY, doesn't force one to keep stacks, and unlike AY, it does have a bow.) So it's a meta, but not without good alternatives.

themaddaedra · December 2018

Every 4 out of 5 bosses favor BSW over Siroria, and every 5 of 5 mob packs favor Mother's Sorrow over SS.

Just because one or two stack and burn fights favor these sets, it no way means that they are mandatory for everything.

People see some high numbers with these sets on certain bosses and they go crazy like it's Siroria+SS or death. Truth is both are extremely situational.

SupremeRissole · December 2018

Agreed with most posters, Spell strat is a dummy set and good for a select few fights. If you are on console and dont have the luxury of swapping sets in a flash sets like BSW or MS are going to buff your cleave which IMO is one of the main assets ranged players bring to a raid.

Plus sets like siroria and relequin are a good idea because they are great in pve but trash in pvp so you dont have the other community getting butthurt about how op it is causing nerfs and making that group butthurt.

But dont worry, next dlc there will be a new set only available to buyers and it will be BiS (thats how they sell it).

Derra · December 2018

Masel wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

We finally have meta sets that require a bit of skill to really perform well and you want them nerfed? Booooo!

Something else will come along in the next year and it will be meta and plenty of other sets are perfectly viable unless pushing score to the absolute limit. Enough with the nerfs. These sets are just fine, not the best in all situations, and they reward skill (weaving and positioning). This is exactly what we want out of meta gear if you ask me.

Wouldn't consider spell strat to require skill though

Depends on where it´s used. In pvp it can be quite bothersome to actually apply the buffs when you want it to be applied.

If that set is to be touched i´d like it to be limited to pvp targets instead of nerfed. I´d hate to see an actual good pvp set touched because of pve causes it was never designed for.

ATomiX96 · December 2018

People Like OP are the reason ZOS doesnt take our feedback serious.
"Its BiS on the Dummy therefore it ruins class flavour and set diversity"

royo · December 2018

DPS is so obscenely high right now that it barely matters what you wear. You can break 65k raid buffed single target while wearing kags and julianos. Unless you're running for a score, people can wear whatever and play a wide variety of classes.

MLGProPlayer · December 2018

ATomiX96 wrote: »

People Like OP are the reason ZOS doesnt take our feedback serious.
"Its BiS on the Dummy therefore it ruins class flavour and set diversity"

If they're so useless, why do so many people get defensive at the suggestion of nerfing them?

Case in point: your post.

Chelo · December 2018

I use BSW and MS for all PvE Group Content... As I always said, dummies doesnt hit you back...

ATomiX96 · December 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

People Like OP are the reason ZOS doesnt take our feedback serious.
"Its BiS on the Dummy therefore it ruins class flavour and set diversity"

If they're so useless, why do so many people get defensive at the suggestion of nerfing them?

Case in point: your post.

They are already sub-par on most fights, why nerf them? There are better options out there but people see the 500 spelldamage on spell strategist (with "100% uptime") and go wild because they lack game knowledge.
BSW with realisticly 50%+ (66% is too optimistic) uptime or just mothers sorrow will always win against spell strategist in 2+ target fights which are 90% of all encounters, siroria looks good on paper and is only good in static fights, so how many fights are there where you can keep up your stacks? maybe 5? Yeah in these cases Siroria and Spell-Strategist are good but thats not the majority of the encounters.
Please get some experience before you make sh!tposts like these on the forums. Thanks.

kojou · December 2018

Ok, so there are situations where burning down one target is the most important thing in a raid (e.g. overchargers, flame shapers, etc.) In these cases Spell strategist would be the best, but it is not by much in any case.

I run Siroria and BSW on my magicka DK and Siroria and MS on my NB. I was actually thinking about getting SS to use as an alternative to Siroria when I have to be more mobile.

In any case there will always be a perceived "best" set and more players will gravitate towards it, but its all within a few % difference in most cases, so I never get that bent out of shape over the current meta.

Lifemocker · December 2018

You don't really need spell strategist for any pve content, unless your team wants max possible score on the leaderboards.
Anyways the dps is pretty high atm, so you can run BSW with MS and still hit high numbers. Siroria and Spell strategist is not needed to complete content.

ezio45 · December 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This is the best set combination for every magicka class right now. No other combo even comes close.

Before these sets came along, other sets actually got some burn. Necropotence, Master Architect, BSW, Silks of the Sun, Elf Bane, Julianos, Infallible Aether. All these sets were used by different classes.

Now, even though a class like DK uses only flame damage, Siroria + SS blow away any combination of BSW/Silks/Elf Bane. Even though warden is a pet class with a low CD ultimate, Siroria + SS blow away Necropotence + Master Architect, and so on.

Siroria + SS has completely killed any semblance of endgame build diversity. Did anyone else prefer building for your specific class' strengths vs. just using the same gear on every character you have?

look at the sets you listed for mag, the newest one is over a year old. mag desperately needed an update to set

elfbane was never a bis gear, Ia hasnt been since at least master architect.

MLGProPlayer · December 2018

Lifemocker wrote: »

You don't really need spell strategist for any pve content, unless your team wants max possible score on the leaderboards.
Anyways the dps is pretty high atm, so you can run BSW with MS and still hit high numbers. Siroria and Spell strategist is not needed to complete content.

I know it's not needed. But if you want to min-max, it's really the only option, on every class.

Joker99 · December 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Lifemocker wrote: »

You don't really need spell strategist for any pve content, unless your team wants max possible score on the leaderboards.
Anyways the dps is pretty high atm, so you can run BSW with MS and still hit high numbers. Siroria and Spell strategist is not needed to complete content.

I know it's not needed. But if you want to min-max, it's really the only option, on every class.

You have pretty much zero idea what you're talking about, the other sets you listed (that somehow made up class flavour, in your opinion) are all crap apart from bsw, you'll never run spell strategist paired with siroria if you even remotely know about the existence of major force in raids and the fights in which siroria is useful are very scarce, and it's funny how you complain about having a set that's good on all classes but fail to recall that before it acuity was used in all situations mag/stam, so it's nerf actually led to more build diversity. If you want to min max there's no point in talking about magicka anyway if you're not running AS or CR, fights in which both siroria and spell strategist are not used.

So please, play the game, gain more knowledge, and stop calling for nerfs if you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sparr0w · December 2018

All mag: Siroria/Spell Strat/BSW/Sorrow
All stam: Relequen/Advancing/Veiled/Briar

You want highest numbers you use the meta sets. All sets are situational tho, wouldn't run spell strat or relequen in a trash fight. Wouldn't use Siroria in a mobile fight.

kathandira · December 2018

It's great for single target fights, other combos are better for AoE, or Mobile fights.

The best way to go about it, is to have different sets for different situations. Just getting a single pair of sets and staying in that at all times is lazy, and you aren't performing at your best.

Vahrokh · December 2018

It's like for Mechanical Acuity and others before it: they pump out grossly overpowered sets to make you buy the DLC / whatever, then nerf them when it's time to sell you the next DLC.

So, wait for a little, they'll get nerfed when the new "Crown Store Strategist" set or similar will drop.

NyassaV · December 2018

SS is only BiS if you're a target dummy hero

MLGProPlayer · December 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's like for Mechanical Acuity and others before it: they pump out grossly overpowered sets to make you buy the DLC / whatever, then nerf them when it's time to sell you the next DLC.

So, wait for a little, they'll get nerfed when the new "Crown Store Strategist" set or similar will drop.

I know that's what they do. The problem is that there shouldn't be a single BiS for every class, even if it's only a short-lived set (as all of these new sets are).

WrathOfInnos · December 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's like for Mechanical Acuity and others before it: they pump out grossly overpowered sets to make you buy the DLC / whatever, then nerf them when it's time to sell you the next DLC.

So, wait for a little, they'll get nerfed when the new "Crown Store Strategist" set or similar will drop.

I know that's what they do. The problem is that there shouldn't be a single BiS for every class, even if it's only a short-lived set (as all of these new sets are).

Neither Spell Strat or Siroria are BiS for all content, and nerfing either of them would simply put them in the large pile of useless sets (where Acuity landed).

For example in vAS+2, on Magplar or Magblade, there is no difference in total DPS between Spell Strat and Burning Spellweave or Mother’s Sorrow. One just shifts more DPS onto the main boss and the others shift more splash damage onto the mini bosses. Spell Strat is only worth using if you have a group that can burn down minis without having to focus them. About 60% of damage done is to the target being focused, which brings the 500 SD down to an effective 300 (balanced with other sets).

reprosal · December 2018

Never been a fan or siroria. I don’t like being bound to a circle. I use BSW/MS or SS/MS depending on the right.

If we are lacking war machine stam I will run MA/MS. Works just fine.

The_Tarantian · December 2018

Current meta is quite fun, most versatile for the past some patches. We got few very strong yet specifc niche sets (siroria/spell strategist).

But if you seriously think they are absolute BiS for high end content (for lower grade content gear choice barely matters at all) - I've got a bad new for ya - you have no damn clue of what are ya talking about.

Hixtory · December 2018

karekiz wrote: »

This is a vaguely disguised nerf Siroria sorc thread.

LOL

MooseKnuckles88 · December 2018

Mettaricana wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Tell that to relequen (def this)and advancing yokeda(on a lesser extent) for stam

I avoid these sets like the plague they are so friggan circumstantial it hurts boss moves out of range all stacks lost

I agree, I have relequens on my stamden and it can be a pain at times trying to get stacks built up in some fights.

lassitershawn · December 2018

Honestly I never slot Siroria and Spell strat isn't quite as OP as is suggested. Siroria is unusable in most real endgame content where magicka is prominent anyways.

vAS:
In vAS you have to do an absurd amount of work to keep Siroria stacks and sacrifice positioning of DoTs, hitting protectors, etc. It isn't very good. Spell strat is worth if you are burning down Olms alone and never focusing minis (not most vAS grps) but in my group where we barely ever have to focus them people have been saying it isn't a huge improvement (I haven't got it myself personally, in BSW/MS still cuz broke af). Sacrificing AoE also means your group is actually more likely to have to end up focusing minis because they get cleaved less. Even if you never focus minis there is the possibility of getting wasted procs on protectors.

vCR:
Most people only run Siroria if upstairs (4/7 in most vCR groups), it is very hard to keep stacks if going downstairs. Same issues with Spell strat as vAS, especially if designated to focus orbs you might get wasted procs.

Master Architect:
If you're running MA, you obviously can't run this combo, and MA is usually used on 2 mag DPS in both vAS and vCR.

Dungeons:
Gl keeping Siroria stacks on virtually any HM DLC boss. Literally every single final boss in these dungeons as well as many regular ones have mechanics that force movement, or the fights are so short that you won't even get to 20 stacks.

So basically the Spell Strat/Siroria COMBO is only BiS for very limited content (some craglorn, vMoL, and vHoF fights), almost all of which stam is going to be dominant in anyways. Spell strat itself loses a lot of its utility in all but the most optimized score pushing groups and is probably weaker than BSW for most vCR/vAS groups and progs. MA will replace it in some cases. These sets aren't near as dominant as OP and others would suggest, except for dummy parsing.

It isn't comparable to Acuity, which was BiS for virtually all serious magicka builds.

lassitershawn · December 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's like for Mechanical Acuity and others before it: they pump out grossly overpowered sets to make you buy the DLC / whatever, then nerf them when it's time to sell you the next DLC.

So, wait for a little, they'll get nerfed when the new "Crown Store Strategist" set or similar will drop.

See my post above for why this comparison is terrible and Acuity is crafted so that is a flawed argument in any case. Most people buy DLCs for new content anyways, if you aren't pushing content seriously what would you even need the sets for. They aren't OP in PvP (though other DLC sets admittedly are)...

vesselwiththepestle · December 2018

Regarding Siroria, you don't need 20 stacks for it to be better than BSW or Julianos. (Strangely I get more often Julianos recommended instead of Siroria than I get BSW recommended.) You have to train your movement. I often see ranged dps player making unnecessary movement, running around like there is no tomorrow. (Even in 4 players group content with bosses who don't have AOEs or mechanics I see players moving around!) It's easily understandable that when players are moving like that they can't make use of Siroria. However, when you get used to Siroria and you know the mechanics well, you can time your Siroria circles, so you can place them where you want them and get the most out of it. When the Siroria circle runs out and your next attack will place the new one, you just have to be at a place where you know you can stand a while (or come back after avoiding some aoe or mechanic thingy).
I would even say: having the circles helps the players to think more about their movement. I know Siroria helped me a lot to get rid of useless movement and re-positioning. It's like using training wheels.

Kanar · December 2018

Yeah relequin ruined stam set diversity. Set balance sweet spot was right before Summerset. There was still a best, but second best was almost just as good. With SS they just "had to" introduce new sets that would make people buy the chapter.

Frankly, it makes me disgusted with ZOS game design team that they buckle to marketing and finance like that. The alternative explanation is even worse: that they are so clueless and out of touch with the product that they didn't know relequin is twice as strong as next best set.

Kanar · December 2018

Mettaricana wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Tell that to relequen (def this)and advancing yokeda(on a lesser extent) for stam

I avoid these sets like the plague they are so friggan circumstantial it hurts boss moves out of range all stacks lost

^ Fox & grapes scenario here, folks.

md3788 · December 2018

Kanar wrote: »

Yeah relequin ruined stam set diversity. Set balance sweet spot was right before Summerset. There was still a best, but second best was almost just as good. With SS they just "had to" introduce new sets that would make people buy the chapter.

Frankly, it makes me disgusted with ZOS game design team that they buckle to marketing and finance like that. The alternative explanation is even worse: that they are so clueless and out of touch with the product that they didn't know relequin is twice as strong as next best set.

Why do you have to buy the DLC to get Spell Strategist? I don't understand. This comes from PvP.