Siroria and Spell Strategist are ruining build diversity and class flavour

Krayl

I haven't been playing as much lately so I don't have anything to add about SS.

As far as Siroria goes, the main problem I have with it is that every other trial set that gives Minor Slayer for magicka users (that I know of anyways?) has a 5 pt bonus that is either based on heavy attacks, activating a synergy, or popping an ultimate.

-Heavy attack based sets are only good for healers and some sorc builds.

-Ultimate based (MA) is fine for NB mostly.

-Synergy based is maybe the most versatile, but the only set there is Moondancer which gives you a random buff and that randomness varies how useful the bonus is.

If you want a minor slayer buff and you're not a magBlade or heavy attack sorc, siroria is really your best/only? option for a set with minor slayer. Not that minor slayer is a necessity but as a flat damage bonus, it's pretty nice to have.

Suggestion: Make the heavy-attack based trial set 5 pc bonuses also add some damage to light attacks along with heavy (like Undaunted Infiltrator does) and possibly another 5 pc bonus (like the ones infallible gets)

This would bring them closer in line with siroria as far as usefulness goes.

Kanar

md3788 wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Yeah relequin ruined stam set diversity. Set balance sweet spot was right before Summerset. There was still a best, but second best was almost just as good. With SS they just "had to" introduce new sets that would make people buy the chapter.

Frankly, it makes me disgusted with ZOS game design team that they buckle to marketing and finance like that. The alternative explanation is even worse: that they are so clueless and out of touch with the product that they didn't know relequin is twice as strong as next best set.

Why do you have to buy the DLC to get Spell Strategist? I don't understand. This comes from PvP.

By SS I meant Summerset. It is really obvious from the context of the paragraph and the usage. Are you paid by zos to derail threads pointing out their greedy tactics?

md3788

Kanar wrote: »

md3788 wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Yeah relequin ruined stam set diversity. Set balance sweet spot was right before Summerset. There was still a best, but second best was almost just as good. With SS they just "had to" introduce new sets that would make people buy the chapter.

Frankly, it makes me disgusted with ZOS game design team that they buckle to marketing and finance like that. The alternative explanation is even worse: that they are so clueless and out of touch with the product that they didn't know relequin is twice as strong as next best set.

Why do you have to buy the DLC to get Spell Strategist? I don't understand. This comes from PvP.

By SS I meant Summerset. It is really obvious from the context of the paragraph and the usage. Are you paid by zos to derail threads pointing out their greedy tactics?

@Kanar I was asking an honest question. Nothing more, nothing less. I've never seen anyone refer to Summerset as SS, where as this thread is about Spell Strategist and most people abbreviate Spell Strategist as SS.

WatchYourSixx

@MLGProPlayer dunno if this had been said before but siroria has been BiS since it came out. Same with Relequen for Stam. All the other sets you mentioned have always failed in comparison to siroria 1 to 1. Now mixing and matching with siroria was debated for a bit after summerset was released, but ultimately everyone realized siroria/bsw with zaans was the most single Target damage build. And all you needed was a double fire build. This was back at the end of June, if you didn't know that then you were just out of the loop.. it's been the same until strategist gained popularity I suppose. Personally still think bsw is better though for maximum damage.

md3788

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer dunno if this had been said before but siroria has been BiS since it came out. Same with Relequen for Stam. All the other sets you mentioned have always failed in comparison to siroria 1 to 1. Now mixing and matching with siroria was debated for a bit after summerset was released, but ultimately everyone realized siroria/bsw with zaans was the most single Target damage build. And all you needed was a double fire build. This was back at the end of June, if you didn't know that then you were just out of the loop.. it's been the same until strategist gained popularity I suppose. Personally still think bsw is better though for maximum damage.

Agree with this, but I thought it was Siroria + MS that was considered BiS..

Masel

For siroria to outperform julianos or sorrow, you just need an average of 4-5 stacks over the fight duration, which isn't much. Unless you pair it with another slayer set, then it will be 7-8 stacks.

The additional magicka bonus alone compensates for 40% of the julianos (or bsw/sorrow) and the stacks just need to go the gap. So even if you don't get more stacks than I said above, siroria will be just as good as others.

Lab3360

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This is the best set combination for every magicka class right now. No other combo even comes close.

Before these sets came along, other sets actually got some burn. Necropotence, Master Architect, BSW, Silks of the Sun, Elf Bane, Julianos, Infallible Aether. All these sets were used by different classes.

Now, even though a class like DK uses only flame damage, Siroria + SS blow away any combination of BSW/Silks/Elf Bane. Even though warden is a pet class with a low CD ultimate, Siroria + SS blow away Necropotence + Master Architect, and so on.

Siroria + SS has completely killed any semblance of endgame build diversity. Did anyone else prefer building for your specific class' strengths vs. just using the same gear on every character you have?

Dont worry. When the racial passive nerfs hit, you wont have this problem.

John_Falstaff

Lab3360 wrote: »

Dont worry. When the racial passive nerfs hit, you wont have this problem.

Well if we call "every stamina DD a redguard, every magicka DD either dunmer or altmer, and every tank or healer an argonian" diversity to begin with, then yes, we definitely won't have that anymore. Good riddance to such diversity.

As for Siroria and Strategist - sure, the sets are strong. Now if you suggest to nerf them, then offer an example of how to nerf them in such a way that they would be neither "so good they're better than anything else in every situation" nor "not worth having over BSW / Sun / Necropotence / ...". The sets are situational, they require some additional mastery to be effective (Siroria - positioning, SS - choice of target at right moment to place the mark), so go ahead and try to think up a way of how to change them but at the same time avoid returning to having only raw stat sets (and yes, per-class meta isn't much better than absolute meta - still same 'if you're X, put on Y for best results') only rewarding players for, you know, putting them on.

HallowedUndead

*me sitting here with SS and Siroria equipeed

https://www.google.com/search?q=kermit+drinking+tea&safe=strict&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS821US821&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=7Wv-BXVcDLtriM%3A%2CKoweAJgqcG_dyM%2C_&usg=AI4_-kRe1gC1OPRlIsl_wVLlEWfiVcYA4Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjm7tHMuqzfAhWpVN8KHXYrCLcQ9QEwAHoECAAQBA#imgrc=7Wv-BXVcDLtriM:

Dirty_Digs

Ad lib as necessary....

"you didn't know that ______ was the new meta? I can do _____ single target even though I'm brand new and have only been playing for a _________. It's not my fault your a ________"

Sound familiar? This is why I don't do trials anymore.

idk

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

People Like OP are the reason ZOS doesnt take our feedback serious.
"Its BiS on the Dummy therefore it ruins class flavour and set diversity"

If they're so useless, why do so many people get defensive at the suggestion of nerfing them?

Case in point: your post.

I think it is more they are pointing out the fallacy of the OP.

Luckylancer

SoLooney wrote: »

If those sets aren't meta, then another set will be meta, and then you're gonna complain about those sets

sirorira and spell strat are not even hard to farm. Perfect siroria is a little bit harder

Second, those 2 sets require some skill to be any good, aka staying in your siroria circle and time on target for spell strat.

Dont see why theres so many complaints about pve gear 😂🤣

Dont forget he said several sets were used before this. He would complain about them too. ZoS put op sets to Summerset to sell it more.

MLGProPlayer

Luckylancer wrote: »

SoLooney wrote: »

If those sets aren't meta, then another set will be meta, and then you're gonna complain about those sets

sirorira and spell strat are not even hard to farm. Perfect siroria is a little bit harder

Second, those 2 sets require some skill to be any good, aka staying in your siroria circle and time on target for spell strat.

Dont see why theres so many complaints about pve gear 😂🤣

Dont forget he said several sets were used before this. He would complain about them too. ZoS put op sets to Summerset to sell it more.

There is a difference between having 5+ meta sets and having 2 meta sets.

Derra

Masel wrote: »

For siroria to outperform julianos or sorrow, you just need an average of 4-5 stacks over the fight duration, which isn't much. Unless you pair it with another slayer set, then it will be 7-8 stacks.

The additional magicka bonus alone compensates for 40% of the julianos (or bsw/sorrow) and the stacks just need to go the gap. So even if you don't get more stacks than I said above, siroria will be just as good as others.

That´s perfected siroria though - i don´t know how many people even run around with that in the first place?

xaraan

Kurat wrote: »

I disagree. They are BiS mostly for target dummy parses and for some static st fights. Not very good for heavy mechanic or multi target instances.

I'm with Kurat here. They are great for target skele fights. Not so much when you are moving a lot, have a lot of targets, or killing stuff quickly.

I still love Moondancer, BSW and even Necro, MA and Mother's Sorrow.

In fact, I kind of like that they are really strong in certain situations, but not every situation and other sets can look appealing outside of that. Bigger problem that set designs in the game is that most players and even GMs aren't good enough with builds to recognize what they need in a build and player and just see the meta and mimic it.

Chelo

xaraan wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

I disagree. They are BiS mostly for target dummy parses and for some static st fights. Not very good for heavy mechanic or multi target instances.

I'm with Kurat here. They are great for target skele fights. Not so much when you are moving a lot, have a lot of targets, or killing stuff quickly.

I still love Moondancer, BSW and even Necro, MA and Mother's Sorrow.

In fact, I kind of like that they are really strong in certain situations, but not every situation and other sets can look appealing outside of that. Bigger problem that set designs in the game is that most players and even GMs aren't good enough with builds to recognize what they need in a build and player and just see the meta and mimic it.

That's a huge problem with this community because most of the players that copy this "YouTube builds", have no idea how to play and keep dying every time in every single boss encounter.

Remember guys, you DPS will be 0 of you are dead anyway...

Chelo

xaraan wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

I disagree. They are BiS mostly for target dummy parses and for some static st fights. Not very good for heavy mechanic or multi target instances.

I'm with Kurat here. They are great for target skele fights. Not so much when you are moving a lot, have a lot of targets, or killing stuff quickly.

I still love Moondancer, BSW and even Necro, MA and Mother's Sorrow.

In fact, I kind of like that they are really strong in certain situations, but not every situation and other sets can look appealing outside of that. Bigger problem that set designs in the game is that most players and even GMs aren't good enough with builds to recognize what they need in a build and player and just see the meta and mimic it.

That's a huge problem with this community because most of the players that copy this "YouTube builds", have no idea how to play and keep dying every time in every single boss encounter.

Remember guys, you DPS will be 0 of you are dead anyway...

AgaTheGreat

I don't think it ruins build diversity. A smart person knows when and how to use sets. If they use siroria and spell strategist for trials with many targets and running around that means they're dummy bashing idiots.