There should be a better solo trial/dungeon that remedies the large skill gap in ESO.

Flares · December 2018

As a newer player queuing into vet dungeons and normal dungeons, it seems to me that the skill gap between the top players and the worst players is a VERY large gap in this compared to other MMOs except FF14 pre Stone, Sea, Sky. There's been encounters where I, a 160~ cp stamblade pull 24-28k dps single target in a dungeon and a 700+ cp whatever can barely hit 10k dps. Now, I do have prior raiding experience in server first and world first progression in other MMOs. However, a player who is 4x my lvl and gearwise should at least pull the same.

Likewise, the difference between a good tank and a good healer is much too large in this game, with good tanks being noticed for their timely use of debuffs, blocks, and grouping and then there are the tanks who tunnel vision and hold block and provide no utility for the group or healers who solely spam heal and doesn't buff, debuff, or provide other utility.

Now, the reason why there is a discrepancy between the "elitist" groups on the forums and reddit and the "ultra casual" is apparent in ESO just like it was in FF14. A lack of a GOOD tutorial for new players. When games like ESO consist of a large number of players who are used to light/heavy spam from skyrim coupled with the lack of overland difficulty and mind numbingly easy Dolmens, it's no wonder there is such a large discrepancy. Players simply don't need to improve in 90% of the game.

Now, I know there are alot of players that don't want to feel pressure to follow "meta builds" and have a desire to "play as they want", but the issue is that the community isn't improving as a whole. From what I garnered, the top end players have been asking for harder trials/ dungeons, but that is impossible if the 99+% of the current playerbase cannot complete them. The skill gap is simply too large

A solution ZOS can provide is what other MMOs such as EverQuest, WoW, FF14, The Secret World, Wildstar, etc has already provided. A instance/dungeon/trial that players can/need to complete in order to participate in endgame content. I'm sure many older gamers can remember Matt from EQ and how players bemoaned the "difficulty" of the dps checks before they can progress, but in the end it made the game healthier as a whole. Likewise, WoW players can remember when they added DPS/Tank/Healer specific trials that players need to Gold/Silver in order to even queue up late game. They were all balanced so that the HPS/DPS/or TPS check required is just above the bare minimum required for completing all dungeons/trials.

In other games, a similar trial is introduced, but not made mandatory by giving players an incentive to pass it such as a title/mount/gold/etc.

However, in ESO the closest thing we have is vMA which as some of know is a DPS centric arena. We need something that can cater to each role.

Examples -

Tank Trial - Complete before queue as Tank/gives BiS tank X/mount

Players need to grab aggro from X mobs and protect Y NPCs for Z minutes. NPCs will damage the mobs/boss and tanks can provide debuff rotations to boost the NPCs damage. There will be a number of interrupts required and every so often a mob will break away and tanks need to grab back aggro. In addition, a random assortment of mechanics from popular trials/dungeons will occur that tanks need to complete. Healer Trial - Required for queue as healer or healer petskin/mountskin

Healers will need to maintain a standard HPS over a couple NPCs attacking a boss who are taking DoTs. NPC's will have resources (stamina, magicka, etc) that healers can provide them along with buffs to boost their damage on the boss OR maintain a higher HPS as the boss gradually increases the Direct Damage and DoTs the longer it is alive. A few mechanics will be provided at random. This allows healers to choose whether to complete it by buffing and healing NPCs to make the boss die faster OR speccing into full heals and try to keep up the increasing HPS requirement as damage becomes near unbearable. DPS - A multipart trial

The first part will have DPS required to deal (25k/35k/45k, depending on difficulty) dps on a stationary target or kill it before X minutes.

The second part will require them to learn how to aoe down a pack of mobs in x seconds.

The third and final part will be similar to the first part, except they have to only maintain 70% of their stationary dps while dodging red and performing mechanics. All red damage is a oneshot. To stimulate real trials and dungeons, the more dps they do, the less red and mechanics they have to perform.

I know this is a controversal topic as seen on the forums and on reddit with some players proudly claiming 5/10/15k dps being enough for X. However, there should not be such a large gap in player skill. The gap as it currently stands, divides the playerbase between "elitist" 60k dps group requirements and 5k dps light attackers. This causes issue when balancing future content as shown with the perceived difficulty of dlc dungeons vs vanilla and becomes a nightmare for developers to try and balance future trials and dungeons so that players are able to complete them, but good players can't just DPS down what is an intended 12min boss fight in 2 minutes.

JumpmanLane · December 2018

Bad idea and ZOS won’t do it. Casuals would quit and casuals are how ZOS monetizes the game.

WhyMustItBe · December 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Bad idea and ZOS won’t do it. Casuals would quit and casuals are how ZOS monetizes the game.

Got to agree on this.

ESO combat isn't tab target like most if not all those other games you mentioned. With more active and dynamic combat comes a higher skillcap, and a lot of people simply don't have the ability to function on the level of those at the absolute peak of the curve.

That is what special titles, leaderboards, cosmetics, and other rewards for the "elite" are for.

If you are having trouble finding people on your level to play with I suggest:

1) Join a guild (there are many) dedicated to high-end content. Tamriel Foundry is a good place to find these.

2) Take the time to teach the people you run with regularly so that the community improves along with your experience.

VileNord · December 2018

I'm not keen on having tank/healer roles locked behind a tutorial dungeon but I love the idea of having the tutorials. It would be interesting to see EXACTLY what ZOS thinks a good healer or tank should be able to accomplish.

usmcjdking · December 2018

This game is not complicated enough to support something like a healing or tanking mini trial.

Linaleah · December 2018

while do like idea of tutorial dungeon as a way to explain the roles, OP you are mistaken when it comes to the reason for the skill gap in ESO. its not so much a lack of tutorial as the fact that ESo utilizies animation canceling/manual weaving. high end players can do it. low end players? cannot. especially when coupled with manual aiming rather then sticky targeting.

you assume that those low end dps are just light attacking. but reality is they are often using various skills, they are just using them much slower then elite players hitting those 50k + numbers.

oh and... given how darn near useless level up advisor is? I have no confidence in ZoS's ability to create actualy useful tutorial dungeons.

Mr_Walker · December 2018

Lag plays havoc with ani-cancelling. Hell, it doesn't do any favours for bar-swapping.

Sylvermynx · December 2018

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Lag plays havoc with ani-cancelling. Hell, it doesn't do any favours for bar-swapping.

Oh so true! I wanted to give you an insightful, an agree AND an awesome. Settled on the awesome.... Bar swapping. I'd LOVE to. Ain't hap'nin.

Edit for typo.

templesus · December 2018

I’d love this. I’m personally of the opinion that the elite should be able to complete content at the rate of their skill level, which cannot happen when I que for vMoS and want to do HM but have a couple 300 CP players who are not competent enough nor pull enough damage.

This would make the Q system much, much better. Even if the casuals would hate not getting carried by elite players.

AlnilamE · December 2018

Flares wrote: »

They were all balanced so that the HPS/DPS/or TPS check required is just above the bare minimum required for completing all dungeons/trials.

And this is where end game players overestimate the amount of DPS actually needed to finish content. Sure, low DPS takes longer, but it's doable. So what exactly would your tutorial do for end game players if people can pass it with less than 20k DPS?

Nebthet78 · December 2018

Linaleah wrote: »

while do like idea of tutorial dungeon as a way to explain the roles, OP you are mistaken when it comes to the reason for the skill gap in ESO. its not so much a lack of tutorial as the fact that ESo utilizies animation canceling/manual weaving. high end players can do it. low end players? cannot. especially when coupled with manual aiming rather then sticky targeting.

you assume that those low end dps are just light attacking. but reality is they are often using various skills, they are just using them much slower then elite players hitting those 50k + numbers.

oh and... given how darn near useless level up advisor is? I have no confidence in ZoS's ability to create actualy useful tutorial dungeons.

Animation Cancelling is the very heart and cause of the HUGE disparity between high end elite players, and the average player base who work at a good rotation, but are unable to pull it off effectively.

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.

These are two issues that are never going to be fixed and has caused a lot of issue between moderate players who can't pass the threshold; and the elite gamers. ZOS doesn't know how to fix animation cancelling and therefore it's been called a feature instead of an exploit of mechanics. The Lag, I'm afraid, may not be all on ZOS' end, but has been proven to be partially caused by Akamai servers, so that won't be fixed any time soon.

There is only one way that ZOS is going to be able to EVER do anything to bridge the massive DPS gap. That's to determine what they feel is the MAX DPS they want to be in this game and to CAP it! If ZOS doesn't want end game guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged burning passed game mechanics, then the answer isn't nerfing the skills and items sets, which in the end, nerfs the moderate player much more than the end game players; the answer is to CAP Max DPS.

At some point in time, ZOS will need to decide. Are we willing to loss 80% of the 1% who can do HM Vet Trials? or are we willing to lose 40% of the other 99% of players who have reached the level to do this content, but can't or are being left out?

JumpmanLane · December 2018

Linaleah wrote: »

while do like idea of tutorial dungeon as a way to explain the roles, OP you are mistaken when it comes to the reason for the skill gap in ESO. its not so much a lack of tutorial as the fact that ESo utilizies animation canceling/manual weaving. high end players can do it. low end players? cannot. especially when coupled with manual aiming rather then sticky targeting.

you assume that those low end dps are just light attacking. but reality is they are often using various skills, they are just using them much slower then elite players hitting those 50k + numbers.

oh and... given how darn near useless level up advisor is? I have no confidence in ZoS's ability to create actualy useful tutorial dungeons.

ZOS devs wipe in the dungeons they created. Lol.

LordGavus · December 2018

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

idk · December 2018

ESO is very much a game that requires skill to play well. Nothing Zos can add will change that. It takes a will or desire to even be mediocre.

Tutorials are great for the most basic aspects of game play, but they will always lack in being able to convert a weak player into someone with even moderate skill. That requires desire and many just want to play the game as they want, which is fine.

Also, OP confuses elitist with actual elite players. For the most part elitist players are somewhere in between actual elite players and casual players. An elite player can carry casual players through most dungeons but an elitist is one who complains because that is a struggle for them.

Also, the difference between a strong and weak player has been in the game since it launched. I was in a guild where the leadership was really poor at playing the game. They took offense to the suggestions that magicka dps and healers perform best in PvE when wearing light armor and stam with DPS. Overland and quests were more challenging then and many had issues with quest bosses because they used such bad, play as you want, builds the leadership promoted.

Nebthet78 · December 2018

LordGavus wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

Yes, me too, but it isn't. I can't imagine doing it in 400-500 ping... That must be like trying to do a rotation in the middle of an FPS drop to 15!!

Part of an issue I found too, is that a majority of these elite guilds want new members, but they don't want to spend a lot of time helping to train these new players. Whether it's helping with rotation, or preparing them by running in progression training groups to teach players mechanics and get the fights down. They don't want to play with people at a lower level than them, and so they actually end up infiltrating other guilds, finding out who the best players are there that meet their desired skill level and pulling those guilds' best players and integrating them in to their own. It is one of the main reasons why a lot of end game raiding guilds and players are considered toxic.

Maybe if they spent more time helping the lower end players and training and educating them, where ZOS fails, there would be more than 1% competing in the end game content.

ruengdet2515 · December 2018

LordGavus wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

>>>
For me 300 ping up+ (sometime 500-1000)
Is this the reason i can not dps > 21k in vTrial ? (sometime 9-15k)

LordGavus · December 2018

ruengdet2515 wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

>>>
For me 300 ping up+ (sometime 500-1000)
Is this the reason i can not dps > 21k in vTrial ? (sometime 9-15k)

The lag definitely makes it hard. I've hit a wall around 33k.
But I have guildmates doing 50k parses with 300 ping, so it can be done.

leeux · December 2018

I don't think it directly correlates to ping rate... I think it's more the reliability of your upstream channel (ISP to net to ZOS).

I play at ~230ms normally and I personally have days where I can practice all the time and not be able to reach more than ~30K dps, where every attempt fails due to light attacks not triggering, bar not swapping or generally animation locks disturbing my normal rotation.

But I have some days where I can have a smooth rotation and even at ~240 to 250 ms PR I'm able to reach ~37K or thereabouts... those are rare, though.

This game depends too much on a reliable upstream link from your comp to the servers... and most ISPs guarantee a downstream link quality, but upstream quality is generally awful... specially for those of us that live in the remote corners of the world, so to speak.

LeagueTroll · December 2018

LordGavus wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

Who need animation cancel to do just 10k dps

Kurat · December 2018

To OP
I dont understand your problem. This is why we have guilds. Join the ones that meet your expectations, skill, content etc. Or form your own guild and recruit like minded and skilled ppl and have fun together. You dont have to use the dungeon finder or pug trials and then try to force your standards on others. Do you realize that probably half the player base doesn't even care. A lot of ppl are just casuals and do occasional dungeon or trial. You shouldn't complain when pugging. Not everyone has the time or interest farming bis gear after every patch and practicing on skelly for hours. If they implemented some sort of test thing that you suggested, it would lock out a lot of players from a lot of content.
Also there ara ppl that genuinely try but are simply not capable. For example I personaly know few 70+ year olds who play eso.
But I do agree that the power creep is too big.

Linaleah · December 2018

LeagueTroll wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

The second root cause is also LAG!

Example: For the most part, I can animation cancel, even though I may be slower than most. BUT, once the latency in my game as shown by ZOS' frame rate and latency tool reaches above 120 I am no longer able to Animation Cancel. At 133, I lose the ability to swap bars reliably, this throws the whole rotation off and you end up with a massive dps loss. Practising 20hr a day, 7 days a week isn't going to fix that for me.
?

Try doing it at 400-500 ping.

I used to think a tutorial would be a good way of gating/preparing players for harder content. I've gone away from that now. I think the best way is players helping players though guilds and the like.

Who need animation cancel to do just 10k dps

according to all the many and varied "fake dps" threads 10k is fake dps.

code65536 · December 2018

Yes, there needs to be something done to close the gap between the ceiling and floor.

But I'm unconvinced that your idea would work or that it would do more good than harm.

Did you ever watch that ESO Live stream from a few weeks ago where Gina was a DD in normal MHK? People may laugh at her style of play, but it is, in my experience, fairly representative of most players in the game. Getting good requires time investment, physical skill (aka, "finger acrobatics"), and interest. Most players lack one or more of those, and it's not something that a tutorial will change.

I think the better approach would be to narrow the gap between floor and ceiling in the combat design. This is something that the devs have publicly stated that they want to do on multiple occasions, but their misguided design decisions that were ostensibly aimed at narrowing that gap have only served to widen it.

Take, for example, the sustain nerfs of the Morrowind patch. The devs stated explicitly that one of the goals of those nerfs was to bring the ceiling down closer to the floor, and they were pleased to see top groups struggle with vMoL HM on the PTS. And sustain nerfs won't hurt those "light-attack spammers", right? Well, sure. The very bottom of the floor was so low that you can't drop it down any further.

What the devs failed to realize was that the sustain nerfs affected the "middle", and it affected them disproportionally. These are people who do more than just light attack, but they aren't very good at it. They don't weave or they'll miss most weaves. They recast their DoTs early. They are not good at anticipating hazards and are slow at moving out of them when needed. And when we are talking about the "floor", we are really mostly interested in this group, not the people at the literal bottom. This is where someone like Gina is at, and from what I see in the game, this is where most players are at.

So why did the sustain nerfs hurt the middle? Well, light attacks cost no resources and represent a substantial chunk of damage, so people who light-attack-weave consistently are essentially getting a lot of "free" (as in costing no resources) damage. Essentially, they have a lower resource cost per damage dealt ratio. Managing timers on DoTs is another important thing. DoTs are very efficient in terms of damage done per resource spent... if you use them correctly. If you take too long to recast them, you are not getting the most out of them. If you recast them too early, you've just wasted resources and lost damage. If you place your ground DoTs poorly, you are not getting the most out of them. People who manage their DoTs well--placing them optimally, refreshing them as they run out, not recasting them early--are getting substantially more damage per resource spent. And when people fail to avoid damage, resources need to be spent to compensate. Watch a first-timer do vMA and look at how often they need to shield or vigor to keep themselves alive. And then watch a competitive vMA run--you'll notice that many of them don't even slot a shield on most rounds. This is how competitive players are able to get through vMA with nothing specced into sustain, which in turn, allows them to spec into more damage, and quicker kills means less incoming damage and less resources spent getting a kill.

In short, yes, the sustain nerfs in Morrowind dropped the ceiling. But it absolutely cratered the middle (what I would consider to be the real floor that people should care about) because the ceiling is vastly more resource-efficient. Add to that the ceiling being better at adapting and adjusting, and what was supposed to be something that narrowed the ceiling and floor gap turned out to be the biggest wedge-driver ever.

And that's just one example of horribly misguided combat design. There are others that I won't go into because this post had already gone on for long enough. The short of it is, the gap between the top and bottom wasn't nearly this bad when I first started playing the game in 2015. It's gotten progressively worse. The devs know it, but their attempts to counteract it almost always backfire.

I firmly believe in a technical solution. Sure, some tutorials would be nice. The tutorial at the start of the game is woefully inadequate. But don't kid yourself--there's only so far you can get with a tutorial. It'll advance someone from light-attack-spammer to someone in the "middle". But the real gap of consequence is between that middle and a ceiling that has reached dizzying heights, and it's a gap that has widened to dangerous levels in large part due to poor combat design decisions.

Fleshreaper · December 2018

VileNord wrote: »

I'm not keen on having tank/healer roles locked behind a tutorial dungeon but I love the idea of having the tutorials. It would be interesting to see EXACTLY what ZOS thinks a good healer or tank should be able to accomplish.

Yep, I agree. However, I wouldn't have a problem with it for random vet content.

FakeFox · December 2018

The problem, if you want to see it as such, is not the game but it's community. I have never seen such a unwillingness to learn and negativity towards better players in any other MMO or even video game in general. A lot of other MMOs don't have tutorials explaining advanced mechanics as well, but people go out to seek information from good players via forums, guilds, Youtube, etc. instead of insulting those players as toxic, elitist, exploiters or nolivers. From my experience most people in other MMOs I have played are thankful if you give them tips, in ESO all you hear is: "It's play as you want, you elitist scum!"

Wifeaggro13 · December 2018

Flares wrote: »

As a newer player queuing into vet dungeons and normal dungeons, it seems to me that the skill gap between the top players and the worst players is a VERY large gap in this compared to other MMOs except FF14 pre Stone, Sea, Sky. There's been encounters where I, a 160~ cp stamblade pull 24-28k dps single target in a dungeon and a 700+ cp whatever can barely hit 10k dps. Now, I do have prior raiding experience in server first and world first progression in other MMOs. However, a player who is 4x my lvl and gearwise should at least pull the same.

Likewise, the difference between a good tank and a good healer is much too large in this game, with good tanks being noticed for their timely use of debuffs, blocks, and grouping and then there are the tanks who tunnel vision and hold block and provide no utility for the group or healers who solely spam heal and doesn't buff, debuff, or provide other utility.

Now, the reason why there is a discrepancy between the "elitist" groups on the forums and reddit and the "ultra casual" is apparent in ESO just like it was in FF14. A lack of a GOOD tutorial for new players. When games like ESO consist of a large number of players who are used to light/heavy spam from skyrim coupled with the lack of overland difficulty and mind numbingly easy Dolmens, it's no wonder there is such a large discrepancy. Players simply don't need to improve in 90% of the game.

Now, I know there are alot of players that don't want to feel pressure to follow "meta builds" and have a desire to "play as they want", but the issue is that the community isn't improving as a whole. From what I garnered, the top end players have been asking for harder trials/ dungeons, but that is impossible if the 99+% of the current playerbase cannot complete them. The skill gap is simply too large

A solution ZOS can provide is what other MMOs such as EverQuest, WoW, FF14, The Secret World, Wildstar, etc has already provided. A instance/dungeon/trial that players can/need to complete in order to participate in endgame content. I'm sure many older gamers can remember Matt from EQ and how players bemoaned the "difficulty" of the dps checks before they can progress, but in the end it made the game healthier as a whole. Likewise, WoW players can remember when they added DPS/Tank/Healer specific trials that players need to Gold/Silver in order to even queue up late game. They were all balanced so that the HPS/DPS/or TPS check required is just above the bare minimum required for completing all dungeons/trials.

In other games, a similar trial is introduced, but not made mandatory by giving players an incentive to pass it such as a title/mount/gold/etc.

However, in ESO the closest thing we have is vMA which as some of know is a DPS centric arena. We need something that can cater to each role.

Examples -

Tank Trial - Complete before queue as Tank/gives BiS tank X/mount

Players need to grab aggro from X mobs and protect Y NPCs for Z minutes. NPCs will damage the mobs/boss and tanks can provide debuff rotations to boost the NPCs damage. There will be a number of interrupts required and every so often a mob will break away and tanks need to grab back aggro. In addition, a random assortment of mechanics from popular trials/dungeons will occur that tanks need to complete. Healer Trial - Required for queue as healer or healer petskin/mountskin

Healers will need to maintain a standard HPS over a couple NPCs attacking a boss who are taking DoTs. NPC's will have resources (stamina, magicka, etc) that healers can provide them along with buffs to boost their damage on the boss OR maintain a higher HPS as the boss gradually increases the Direct Damage and DoTs the longer it is alive. A few mechanics will be provided at random. This allows healers to choose whether to complete it by buffing and healing NPCs to make the boss die faster OR speccing into full heals and try to keep up the increasing HPS requirement as damage becomes near unbearable. DPS - A multipart trial

The first part will have DPS required to deal (25k/35k/45k, depending on difficulty) dps on a stationary target or kill it before X minutes.

The second part will require them to learn how to aoe down a pack of mobs in x seconds.

The third and final part will be similar to the first part, except they have to only maintain 70% of their stationary dps while dodging red and performing mechanics. All red damage is a oneshot. To stimulate real trials and dungeons, the more dps they do, the less red and mechanics they have to perform.

I know this is a controversal topic as seen on the forums and on reddit with some players proudly claiming 5/10/15k dps being enough for X. However, there should not be such a large gap in player skill. The gap as it currently stands, divides the playerbase between "elitist" 60k dps group requirements and 5k dps light attackers. This causes issue when balancing future content as shown with the perceived difficulty of dlc dungeons vs vanilla and becomes a nightmare for developers to try and balance future trials and dungeons so that players are able to complete them, but good players can't just DPS down what is an intended 12min boss fight in 2 minutes.

I agree this game did not lend itself well to a end game community after 2016. the game did play much different and the community that played back then had some what of a easier time. because the game did increase its diffculty and mechanics going from regular dungeons to VR dungeons . Tam one only made that system a complete exercise in frustration. some of the biggest game design flaws are the loosy goosy roles through most of the content aside from the dlc dungeons and trials. with out true CC or true utility roles those are secondary effects of another role that is usually to support DPS most trash is just stack and burn there are no LOS ,single pull or tanking tricks that you would expect from a knowledgeable tank in other MMO's pull one and pull them all no thought to CC or and abilites such as mezz or charming.in this game DPS is the main requirement and everything is designed around it. add in the fact animation canceling was a bug not intended for game play that they decieded to call a feature, they began designing content with that top tier dps in mind that required it not everyone is skilled with it and a lot of people dont gear them selves correctly or use CP in spots to support their build. so many factors go into this game being a crap show in its end game and the CP system is one of them. VR though very grindy and boring. Performed far better for the role system then CP or Tam Ones scaling system .

Edziu · December 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Bad idea and ZOS won’t do it. Casuals would quit and casuals are how ZOS monetizes the game.

and this would be great step to ZOS to open them eyes how big potential have this game for experienced player which would be more loyar for longer time if game is doing right on which ZOS is just showing us middle finger about good functioning game

Lisutaris · December 2018

Flares wrote: »

However, in ESO the closest thing we have is vMA which as some of know is a DPS centric arena. We need something that can cater to each role.

WRONG ! Maelstrom Arena can be alot of stuff, fun, frustrating etc. but it is not and will never be a DPS check/race.
If you understand the stuff that is happening around you (positioning, block / dodge when it would be good ,...) vMA is easy as hell. I am not talking about doing it flawless, just managing to clear the last stage / last round. Also with breaks and NO best time/score rush.

BUT i can agree on some parts. For instance, the idea of some Tank/DPS/Heal "events" sound nice.
A small instance in the fighters guild, where stuff like that happens. Survive as long as possible, support as long as possible, kill as fast as possible, ... with some score at the end and some exp (not much) sound nice.
This way you would be able to try out stuff. But the reward itself should be the feedback (like target dummy, you do not get anything for destroying it, just feedback in form of dps numbers).

EDIT : If you think about it, we have good and bad DD. The target dummy is available, still there is a huge difference. The gear is easy to obtain, everybody should be able to get most of the "good" items. The item gap is little.
Still -> huge difference between DD in dungeons, without looking at cp-lvl. Why ? easy, the problem is not the system, not the options for the gamer to improve... the problem is always the player who does not want to ^^''

It would be also nice to introduce a new solo arena. (also with norm and vet mode).
Why? New trials, are using new mechanics and "events" and it would be nice to be able to get a solo dungeon for those.
(Examples -> flying enemies (gryphon) which are still targetable etc. ; portal (shadow zone); ...)
Make it the uncle sheos poisoned cheesecake factory, i dont care

-> daedric realm

.

The biggest problem (for you) and issue here is not the difference between the capability of the playerbase. It is more the difference between the content. Overland stuff easy as hell (dolmen like you said) and you can also get your stuff with normal trials (yeah i know, imperfect but its no biggie).
So WHY should people invest time and work hard (playing xD) to get better, if you can also do the content and even get the same or nearly the same rewards with less deaths and time investment...
BUT it is not really a problem (for me), tbh I like it this way. The hardcore playerbase can earn some shiny titles and skins, but the gear/content/stuff is open for everybody.

The solution is to join a guild / grp of players / make a fl, with ppl that are thinking the same as you. WIN WIN you dont have to play with "newbies" and the "newbs" don't have to listen to toxic "ingame kings"

(don't feel offended, it is not about you. But we can all agree on that --> remember the undaunted event xD)

victory.immortalb16_ESO · December 2018

Some people seem to forget: this is just a game. Most people are just here to enjoy it and enjoy themselves. They could care less if they meet some mythical 'max dps'. If that's your thing, fine, but don't try and impose it on others.

As others have suggested, join a like minded guild, find like minded players, or try and train up people.

As someone who has been there, done that and worn the t-shirt in other games, my advice is simply to find those whom you are comfortable playing with and go there.

Having artificial 'tests' before playing any sort of content isn't going to fly. Neither is catering to the tiny minority who want the hardest content and maxed dps/skill rotation, etc. That's not what pays the devs bills.

Starlock · December 2018

victory.immortalb16_ESO wrote: »

Some people seem to forget: this is just a game. Most people are just here to enjoy it and enjoy themselves. They could care less if they meet some mythical 'max dps'. If that's your thing, fine, but don't try and impose it on others.

Indeed. I think some mistake "unwillingness to learn" (as someone said earlier) for different gaming priorities. A lot of folks don't care about competitive gaming, or don't make it their sole focus. Changes like the OP proposes might be fine for competitive gamers, but not for those with different priorities.

That said, the game does have a steep learning curve even if you aren't competitive and its mechanics are far from transparent. There's room for improvement. The level up advisor was a step in the right direction as far as tutorials go, definitely. It was a nice addition without being too intrusive. A sort of dungeon tutorial might not be a bad thing.

Katahdin · December 2018

IMO, the ceiling never really got lowered.

There are still people doing 50K+ dps, which still boggles my mind when i look at the damage tool tips on my skills. I would literally have to hit 6 skills every second to get those numbers. It's just not physically possible.

I do agree the middle crashed and is struggling. The floor is still down there and hasn't come up at all.

There are people that can barely do 25k if that let alone 30+.

I've been watching videos had people show me rotations, beat on the farking dummy for hours to the point I hate that I hate it and I just can not improve. Beginning to think that I'm just someone that can not do it.

I just do not have the coordimation any more and it's getting depressing because I'm locked out of content I can't do because I can never meet the dps requiements they want