Major Exploit: Undaunted Daily Randoms

Ertosi · November 2018

There is a major exploit concerning the Undaunted Daily Randoms. This affects the current Undaunted Event by making them much easier to complete than is obviously intended.

I know that its against the forum policy to go into the "How to" details concerning exploits, so I will not and followed the requested procedure of submitting a Support ticket. The problem is the support ticket category of Bugs > Exploits goes under Feedback which doesn't allow for any responses or follow ups for more information. Essentially the tickets in that category just get immediately closed with no indication that you are aware of the issue.

This issue certainly falls under the category of major exploit, and a large portion of the gaming community seems to be aware of it, now that I know what to look for in game chat/zone. I became aware of it from a PUG group that showed it off yesterday, but a quick search elsewhere on the net shows its been well known by the community going back to at least last summer.

Ticket number is 181130-003256 with full details.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_KaiSchober
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

Please give a heads up that you're aware of this issue.

yodased · November 2018

This probably isn't going to end in the way you think its going to, but if you feel that this is an exploit you have every right to report it.

Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.

Putting yourself out there like this may very well reflect negatively with certain sectors of the game.

Ertosi · November 2018

yodased wrote: »

Putting yourself out there like this may very well reflect negatively with certain sectors of the game.

aka "Whistle blowers will punished by players who like using an obvious exploit"

That would only indicate that this is truly an exploit and those using it know exactly what they're doing..

yodased wrote: »

This probably isn't going to end in the way you think its going to

Actually, I think its going to end with no action being taken on ZOS's part and no changes being made in-game. So I'm quite sure its going to end exactly the way I think its going to. But I'd be pleasantly surprised if it ends otherwise. And my conscious is clean now.

Elsonso · November 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

The problem is the support ticket category of Bugs > Exploits goes under Feedback which doesn't allow for any responses or follow ups for more information. Essentially the tickets in that category just get immediately closed with no indication that you are aware of the issue.

I always tell people to ignore the Ticket status. Closed does not seem to mean what players think it means. ZOS does not use the ticketing system to track progress. They seem to just use it to collect initial information. The progress is probably tracked on an internal system that we do not have access to. The information gets transferred from the Ticket to that system. After that is done, and particularly with reports like this, the ticket serves no more purpose. At that time, I think they close it.

vamp_emily · November 2018

This could be the end of ESO!

Anyone who did a undaunted random could be banned from the game.

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R.I.P. ESO

Haashhtaag · November 2018

Why on God’s green earth would you report a thing that benefits you as a player? ZOS literally nerfs everything that benefits players and makes their game more of a grind. May you sell your soul to Molag Bal.

yodased · November 2018

If this is the hill you choose to die on, I'm not going to try and dissuade you, nor was the it the intent of the first response.

This particular behavior you are judging can be validly be argued from either side.

I personally don't care because even dlc normal dungeons are solo fodder, so if they do change the system to what you feel is their intention, I will be completely unaffected.

Ertosi · November 2018

yodased wrote: »

Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.

This is super insightful to know that its been around that long. Sadly those that enjoy doing such things love the fact that something been around a long time to justify to themselves and others why that makes it ok to do. But such thinking is certainly a logical fallacy. I guess that would be an Appeal to Ignorance? "They've never said its an exploit, and its been around forever, so its perfectly ok to do." But when its called Random Dungeon and people are glitching it to run the dungeon of their choice, it's pretty obvious this not intended.

Bfish22090 · November 2018

you mean just port to fungal grotto and you dont actually have to do the random dungeon?

Runs · November 2018

Let's say theoretically they fix this issue.

You know even if it's fixed, it wont and can't be truly fixed. People will just start their premades with a lvl 10-15 character for normal or a low cp toon for vet to get the easier dungeons.

yodased · November 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.

This is super insightful to know that its been around that long. Sadly those that enjoy doing such things love the fact that something been around a long time to justify to themselves and others why that makes it ok to do. But such thinking is certainly a logical fallacy. I guess that would be an Appeal to Ignorance? "They've never said its an exploit, and its been around forever, so its perfectly ok to do." But when its called Random Dungeon and people are glitching it to run the dungeon of their choice, it's pretty obvious this not intended.

This is where I will disagree with you on the merits of the argument. You can not arbitrarily assign intent, you can have an opinion of a companys reasoning, but the intent can only be provided by those who create the situation in the first place.

What I find kind of funny is that you think they are not aware of this and you are a whistle blower of some sort, which means you feel that they do not have the ability to run a simple scatter plot of all dungeons run during the event and last years event and determine that a massive uptick in one dungeon to the detriment of the others is players doing what you describe as an exploit.

Now, the concept of random must come into play here and the definition of that concept must be provided by those in control. Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

Also its group finder, so the onus of random may very well lie within the grouping of people over the dungeon selected through chance.

Ertosi · November 2018

yodased wrote: »

Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

That part is dead false. Where it true, a player's Randomly Daily would automatically trigger on its own upon completion of any dungeon. That is not the case. People are intentionally glitching the system by joining the Random Daily queue and then triggering the exploit. There's a distinct difference.

THE_BIG_BOSS · November 2018

vamp_emily wrote: »

This could be the end of ESO!

Anyone who did a undaunted random could be banned from the game.

R.I.P. ESO

Thank god no one was able to do one.

Haashhtaag · November 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

That part is dead false. Where it true, a player's Randomly Daily would automatically trigger on its own upon completion of any dungeon. That is not the case. People are intentionally glitching the system by joining the Random Daily queue and then triggering the exploit. There's a distinct difference.

I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.

yodased · November 2018

Ertosi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

That part is dead false. Where it true, a player's Randomly Daily would automatically trigger on its own upon completion of any dungeon. That is not the case. People are intentionally glitching the system by joining the Random Daily queue and then triggering the exploit. There's a distinct difference.

You are too stuck on the fact that you think you are correct to actually understand the concept. I am simply stating that the word random may be conceptually based on the group and not the dungeon.

You conveniently left out being in a random group and tried to assign criteria to a system you didn't design nor know the scope or intent of.

Very well could be that you are correct and that the systems qualifications for a random group should be changed to only that specific dungeon that was rolled upon, but again you don't know what the emphasis of random is.

You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

yodased · November 2018

Also what I don't understand is why do you care? The undaunted event is about doing dungeons in a group, no one is circumventing this system, some people may use the system to their benefit and not run the specific rolled random encounter, but why is that a bad thing?

Ertosi · November 2018

yodased wrote: »

You are too stuck on the fact that you think you are correct to actually understand the concept. I am simply stating that the word random may be conceptually based on the group and not the dungeon.

Were it the case that it was intended to do any dungeon to get the rewards, it would literally say on the Random Dungeon Finder's description "Completing any normal dungeon or any veteran dungeon will give..." but it doesn't. It says "Completing a random normal dungeon or a random veteran dungeon will give...". Its pretty crystal clear with no room to misunderstand, excepting for those who'd rather purposely misconstrue what it says to justify their actions.

Edit: When someone is manually selecting which dungeon they are running, it does not meet the definition of Random.

Ertosi · November 2018

yodased wrote: »

You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

You are completely correct about this! Which is exactly why I requested ZOS's words on it from the start. Their voice is the only one that matters here. Not mine, not anyone else's, only theirs.

yodased · November 2018

random simply means a dungeon out of set of dungeons, it doesn't mean you have to do the one they give you.

Again I'm not justifying any action, perceived exploit or not, but I am trying to understand where the motivation to remove the function comes from.

It's not crystal clear, its murky and open to interpretation, you just feel your interpretation is correct and have dug in your heels.

ChunkyCat · November 2018

What’s the outcome of the exploit?

You don’t have to post the “how to” exploit, but what exactly are the exploiters getting out of it?

Haashhtaag · November 2018

Snitch.

Ertosi wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

You are completely correct about this! Which is exactly why I requested ZOS's words on it from the start. Their voice is the only one that matters here. Not mine, not anyone else's, only theirs.

Runs · November 2018

It could also be that fixing this would lead to worse performance and more queues. This gets taken away and either what I said above ends up happening, or people just disband, regroup and queue again till they get one of the easier dungeons. I can't imagine that being good for the servers performance, but I could be wrong.

yodased · November 2018

ChunkyCat wrote: »

What’s the outcome of the exploit?

You don’t have to post the “how to” exploit, but what exactly are the exploiters getting out of it?

@chunkyCat the alleged exploit is queuing for a random dungeon and then doing a different dungeon than was randomly chosen for exactly the same rewards as you would have gotten had you done the 1st dungeon.

Basically I believe and I dont want to put words in anyones mouth, but the problem is people may feel that this is a circumvention of the system and you should be required to complete the specific dungeon that your random group was assigned.

There are valid arguments for both sides of this issue.

Giraffon · November 2018

I just learned of this yesterday after pugging my way through Fang Lair. /facepalm

Haven't actually tried it to know if it works or not. Probably never will. Seems lame.

Minyassa · November 2018

It's not an exploit or they would have hotfixed it the very minute someone reported it years ago.

Elsonso · November 2018

Minyassa wrote: »

It's not an exploit or they would have hotfixed it the very minute someone reported it years ago.

Or, it could be that they have not fixed it yet and expect that people will abide by the ToS.

Just because someone spouts off in the forum and says that it is OK (or isn't) does not change the fact that the ToS explicitly says:

You agree not to use any Service to:

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking,
cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of
counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously
improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other
inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Then again, maybe people don't care what ZOS does to them, or assume that ZOS will not do anything.

Ramber · November 2018

What, Ertosi, makes you this this isnt working as designed? One could argue both sides but your passion on the subject is a little over dramatic.

The finder simply finds a dungeon then passes off to a completion or non completion of A dungeon not THE dungeon. That is a very specific programming choice. or to put it another way, the system is currently working as it is designed. If they wanted to attach us to a specific dungeon (for the 15 minute timer) come what may (bugged content, bad dps where u go nowhere, tanks that aren't tanks, healers that aren't healers, etc..) they easily could by altering the same line of code that allows it.

but with may bring with it a load of consequences being avoided currently with this version in place. I remember all the posts in past years of people literally crying and breaking things because the finder was broken (like it was yesterday for hours).

Like i said before here, let's fix the real problems (lag?) first then we can cry about this one like it matters.

yodased · November 2018

Who is claiming that it is ok or isn't ok? Only thing I see is a discussion of people talking about an issue, no judgement was presented on either side claiming rig

kwinter · November 2018

Actually the random dungeon was added to try to help with grouping to encourage more players to run dungeons.

kwinter · November 2018

Also when you do a random dungeonn you may notice not everyone in group is doing a random dungeon

Minyassa · November 2018

Exploits are the only thing they *ever* hotfix right away, they are on that in a flash. All exploits have always been hotfixed before I ever even heard of them; usually I find out about them by asking "why did we have a patch in the middle of the week".