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Major Exploit: Undaunted Daily Randoms

Ertosi
Ertosi
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There is a major exploit concerning the Undaunted Daily Randoms. This affects the current Undaunted Event by making them much easier to complete than is obviously intended.

I know that its against the forum policy to go into the "How to" details concerning exploits, so I will not and followed the requested procedure of submitting a Support ticket. The problem is the support ticket category of Bugs > Exploits goes under Feedback which doesn't allow for any responses or follow ups for more information. Essentially the tickets in that category just get immediately closed with no indication that you are aware of the issue.

This issue certainly falls under the category of major exploit, and a large portion of the gaming community seems to be aware of it, now that I know what to look for in game chat/zone. I became aware of it from a PUG group that showed it off yesterday, but a quick search elsewhere on the net shows its been well known by the community going back to at least last summer.

Ticket number is 181130-003256 with full details.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_KaiSchober
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_GaryA

Please give a heads up that you're aware of this issue.
PC NA @Ertosi
♠♦ My Team ♥♣
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Sir PriceStamblade Bow Ganker [Daedric Lord Slayer]
MayaStamblade Speedster
AhmedMagblade Bomber
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CP 950+
♌ DC Loyalist ♌
✄ Grand Master Crafter
No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    This probably isn't going to end in the way you think its going to, but if you feel that this is an exploit you have every right to report it.

    Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.

    Putting yourself out there like this may very well reflect negatively with certain sectors of the game.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Elsonso
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    Ertosi wrote: »
    The problem is the support ticket category of Bugs > Exploits goes under Feedback which doesn't allow for any responses or follow ups for more information. Essentially the tickets in that category just get immediately closed with no indication that you are aware of the issue.

    I always tell people to ignore the Ticket status. Closed does not seem to mean what players think it means. ZOS does not use the ticketing system to track progress. They seem to just use it to collect initial information. The progress is probably tracked on an internal system that we do not have access to. The information gets transferred from the Ticket to that system. After that is done, and particularly with reports like this, the ticket serves no more purpose. At that time, I think they close it.

  • Ertosi
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    yodased wrote: »
    Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.
    This is super insightful to know that its been around that long. Sadly those that enjoy doing such things love the fact that something been around a long time to justify to themselves and others why that makes it ok to do. But such thinking is certainly a logical fallacy. I guess that would be an Appeal to Ignorance? "They've never said its an exploit, and its been around forever, so its perfectly ok to do." But when its called Random Dungeon and people are glitching it to run the dungeon of their choice, it's pretty obvious this not intended.
    PC NA @Ertosi
    ♠♦ My Team ♥♣
    GoanJabsplar [Grand Master Crafter, Master Angler, Tamriel Hero, Explorer]
    DruStamplar
    TicklesHealplar
    DixieMagplar
    FigsStamblade Sneakthief [Master Thief]
    Sir PriceStamblade Bow Ganker [Daedric Lord Slayer]
    MayaStamblade Speedster
    AhmedMagblade Bomber
    BalzarStamSorc Blitzer
    WinniePetSorc Thunder Mage
    TanksStamDK Tank
    MonaMagDK Fire Mage
    DawnHPDK
    BearlyStamden Tank
    IvanaMagden Ice Mage

    CP 950+
    ♌ DC Loyalist ♌
    ✄ Grand Master Crafter
    No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
    https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
    https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
    https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
    https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
    Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.
  • Runs
    Runs
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    Let's say theoretically they fix this issue.

    You know even if it's fixed, it wont and can't be truly fixed. People will just start their premades with a lvl 10-15 character for normal or a low cp toon for vet to get the easier dungeons.
    Edited by Runs on November 30, 2018 7:57PM
    Runs| Orc NightbladeChim-el Adabal| Dunmer TemplarM'air the Honest| Khajiit Templar
    Oddity| Altmer SorcerorDrizlo| Orc DragonKnightLady Ra Gada| Redguard Sorceror
    Taste-of-Hist-Sap| Argonian NightbladeWar'den Peace| Khajiit WardenLittle Warden Annie Altmer Warden
    Ports with Blood| Breton TemplarDirty-Old-Man| Dunmer DragonKnightEyes-of-the-Sun| Argonian DragonKnight
    Bleak Mystique| Nord WardenPolychronopolous| Imperial SorcerorBullcrit| Khajiit Nightblade
    PC NA CP 1250+ and still a noob
    At Writs End - A place to complete master writs
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Ertosi wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Just to let you know, this has been something that has been done since the group finder began and has been reported so many times people just stopped reporting it.
    This is super insightful to know that its been around that long. Sadly those that enjoy doing such things love the fact that something been around a long time to justify to themselves and others why that makes it ok to do. But such thinking is certainly a logical fallacy. I guess that would be an Appeal to Ignorance? "They've never said its an exploit, and its been around forever, so its perfectly ok to do." But when its called Random Dungeon and people are glitching it to run the dungeon of their choice, it's pretty obvious this not intended.

    This is where I will disagree with you on the merits of the argument. You can not arbitrarily assign intent, you can have an opinion of a companys reasoning, but the intent can only be provided by those who create the situation in the first place.

    What I find kind of funny is that you think they are not aware of this and you are a whistle blower of some sort, which means you feel that they do not have the ability to run a simple scatter plot of all dungeons run during the event and last years event and determine that a massive uptick in one dungeon to the detriment of the others is players doing what you describe as an exploit.

    Now, the concept of random must come into play here and the definition of that concept must be provided by those in control. Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

    Also its group finder, so the onus of random may very well lie within the grouping of people over the dungeon selected through chance.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Ertosi
    Ertosi
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    yodased wrote: »
    Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

    That part is dead false. Where it true, a player's Randomly Daily would automatically trigger on its own upon completion of any dungeon. That is not the case. People are intentionally glitching the system by joining the Random Daily queue and then triggering the exploit. There's a distinct difference.
    Edited by Ertosi on November 30, 2018 8:12PM
    PC NA @Ertosi
    ♠♦ My Team ♥♣
    GoanJabsplar [Grand Master Crafter, Master Angler, Tamriel Hero, Explorer]
    DruStamplar
    TicklesHealplar
    DixieMagplar
    FigsStamblade Sneakthief [Master Thief]
    Sir PriceStamblade Bow Ganker [Daedric Lord Slayer]
    MayaStamblade Speedster
    AhmedMagblade Bomber
    BalzarStamSorc Blitzer
    WinniePetSorc Thunder Mage
    TanksStamDK Tank
    MonaMagDK Fire Mage
    DawnHPDK
    BearlyStamden Tank
    IvanaMagden Ice Mage

    CP 950+
    ♌ DC Loyalist ♌
    ✄ Grand Master Crafter
    No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
    https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
    https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
    https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
    https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
    Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Ertosi wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Random in this context appears to be any dungeon, so completing a dungeon while in the random queue satisfies the criteria of the system.

    That part is dead false. Where it true, a player's Randomly Daily would automatically trigger on its own upon completion of any dungeon. That is not the case. People are intentionally glitching the system by joining the Random Daily queue and then triggering the exploit. There's a distinct difference.

    You are too stuck on the fact that you think you are correct to actually understand the concept. I am simply stating that the word random may be conceptually based on the group and not the dungeon.

    You conveniently left out being in a random group and tried to assign criteria to a system you didn't design nor know the scope or intent of.

    Very well could be that you are correct and that the systems qualifications for a random group should be changed to only that specific dungeon that was rolled upon, but again you don't know what the emphasis of random is.

    You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    Also what I don't understand is why do you care? The undaunted event is about doing dungeons in a group, no one is circumventing this system, some people may use the system to their benefit and not run the specific rolled random encounter, but why is that a bad thing?
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Ertosi
    Ertosi
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    yodased wrote: »
    You are too stuck on the fact that you think you are correct to actually understand the concept. I am simply stating that the word random may be conceptually based on the group and not the dungeon.

    Were it the case that it was intended to do any dungeon to get the rewards, it would literally say on the Random Dungeon Finder's description "Completing any normal dungeon or any veteran dungeon will give..." but it doesn't. It says "Completing a random normal dungeon or a random veteran dungeon will give...". Its pretty crystal clear with no room to misunderstand, excepting for those who'd rather purposely misconstrue what it says to justify their actions.

    Edit: When someone is manually selecting which dungeon they are running, it does not meet the definition of Random.
    Edited by Ertosi on November 30, 2018 8:39PM
    PC NA @Ertosi
    ♠♦ My Team ♥♣
    GoanJabsplar [Grand Master Crafter, Master Angler, Tamriel Hero, Explorer]
    DruStamplar
    TicklesHealplar
    DixieMagplar
    FigsStamblade Sneakthief [Master Thief]
    Sir PriceStamblade Bow Ganker [Daedric Lord Slayer]
    MayaStamblade Speedster
    AhmedMagblade Bomber
    BalzarStamSorc Blitzer
    WinniePetSorc Thunder Mage
    TanksStamDK Tank
    MonaMagDK Fire Mage
    DawnHPDK
    BearlyStamden Tank
    IvanaMagden Ice Mage

    CP 950+
    ♌ DC Loyalist ♌
    ✄ Grand Master Crafter
    No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
    https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
    https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
    https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
    https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
    Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.
  • Ertosi
    Ertosi
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    yodased wrote: »
    You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

    You are completely correct about this! Which is exactly why I requested ZOS's words on it from the start. Their voice is the only one that matters here. Not mine, not anyone else's, only theirs.
    PC NA @Ertosi
    ♠♦ My Team ♥♣
    GoanJabsplar [Grand Master Crafter, Master Angler, Tamriel Hero, Explorer]
    DruStamplar
    TicklesHealplar
    DixieMagplar
    FigsStamblade Sneakthief [Master Thief]
    Sir PriceStamblade Bow Ganker [Daedric Lord Slayer]
    MayaStamblade Speedster
    AhmedMagblade Bomber
    BalzarStamSorc Blitzer
    WinniePetSorc Thunder Mage
    TanksStamDK Tank
    MonaMagDK Fire Mage
    DawnHPDK
    BearlyStamden Tank
    IvanaMagden Ice Mage

    CP 950+
    ♌ DC Loyalist ♌
    ✄ Grand Master Crafter
    No new crafting or game systems for 2019? "Season of the Dragon" would be better named "The Year of no New Major Features"
    https://i.imgur.com/TPscgS9.jpg to see major features of the last few years compared.
    https://i.imgur.com/X8qY0gP.jpg to see a detailed comparison of this year's Q1 to the last two Q1s.
    https://i.imgur.com/4z71cK8.jpg to see a detailed comparison of each years' first two quarters combined.
    https://i.imgur.com/jrHe5h8.jpg to see a projected comparison of the full years and what 2019's Q4 will need to catch up.
    Unsubbed January 15th, 2019 due to the lack of any new substantial features shown to be coming in 2019.
  • yodased
    yodased
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    random simply means a dungeon out of set of dungeons, it doesn't mean you have to do the one they give you.

    Again I'm not justifying any action, perceived exploit or not, but I am trying to understand where the motivation to remove the function comes from.

    It's not crystal clear, its murky and open to interpretation, you just feel your interpretation is correct and have dug in your heels.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • ChunkyCat
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    What’s the outcome of the exploit?

    You don’t have to post the “how to” exploit, but what exactly are the exploiters getting out of it?
    Edited by ChunkyCat on November 30, 2018 8:43PM
  • Haashhtaag
    Haashhtaag
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    Snitch.
    Ertosi wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

    You are completely correct about this! Which is exactly why I requested ZOS's words on it from the start. Their voice is the only one that matters here. Not mine, not anyone else's, only theirs.
    Ertosi wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    You are saying that person A takes action B and its exploiting a system, I am saying that person A's action very well could not be exploitative in the context of this game and it's creators.

    You are completely correct about this! Which is exactly why I requested ZOS's words on it from the start. Their voice is the only one that matters here. Not mine, not anyone else's, only theirs.

  • yodased
    yodased
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    What’s the outcome of the exploit?

    You don’t have to post the “how to” exploit, but what exactly are the exploiters getting out of it?

    @chunkyCat the alleged exploit is queuing for a random dungeon and then doing a different dungeon than was randomly chosen for exactly the same rewards as you would have gotten had you done the 1st dungeon.

    Basically I believe and I dont want to put words in anyones mouth, but the problem is people may feel that this is a circumvention of the system and you should be required to complete the specific dungeon that your random group was assigned.

    There are valid arguments for both sides of this issue.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Giraffon
    Giraffon
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    I just learned of this yesterday after pugging my way through Fang Lair. /facepalm

    Haven't actually tried it to know if it works or not. Probably never will. Seems lame.
    Giraffon - Beta Lizard - For the Pact!
  • Minyassa
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    It's not an exploit or they would have hotfixed it the very minute someone reported it years ago.
  • Elsonso
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    Minyassa wrote: »
    It's not an exploit or they would have hotfixed it the very minute someone reported it years ago.

    Or, it could be that they have not fixed it yet and expect that people will abide by the ToS.

    Just because someone spouts off in the forum and says that it is OK (or isn't) does not change the fact that the ToS explicitly says:

    You agree not to use any Service to:

    Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking,
    cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of
    counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously
    improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other
    inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;


    Then again, maybe people don't care what ZOS does to them, or assume that ZOS will not do anything.
  • Ramber
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    What, Ertosi, makes you this this isnt working as designed? One could argue both sides but your passion on the subject is a little over dramatic.

    The finder simply finds a dungeon then passes off to a completion or non completion of A dungeon not THE dungeon. That is a very specific programming choice. or to put it another way, the system is currently working as it is designed. If they wanted to attach us to a specific dungeon (for the 15 minute timer) come what may (bugged content, bad dps where u go nowhere, tanks that aren't tanks, healers that aren't healers, etc..) they easily could by altering the same line of code that allows it.

    but with may bring with it a load of consequences being avoided currently with this version in place. I remember all the posts in past years of people literally crying and breaking things because the finder was broken (like it was yesterday for hours).

    Like i said before here, let's fix the real problems (lag?) first then we can cry about this one like it matters.
  • yodased
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    Who is claiming that it is ok or isn't ok? Only thing I see is a discussion of people talking about an issue, no judgement was presented on either side claiming rig
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • kwinter
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    Actually the random dungeon was added to try to help with grouping to encourage more players to run dungeons.
    Edited by kwinter on November 30, 2018 9:18PM
  • kwinter
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    Also when you do a random dungeonn you may notice not everyone in group is doing a random dungeon
    Edited by kwinter on November 30, 2018 9:20PM
  • Minyassa
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    Exploits are the only thing they *ever* hotfix right away, they are on that in a flash. All exploits have always been hotfixed before I ever even heard of them; usually I find out about them by asking "why did we have a patch in the middle of the week".
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