MMO Truth: The larger the PVP community, the less game satisfaction there will be.

Finviuswe · November 2018

Rain_Greyraven wrote: »

Just because ESO has PVP doesn't mean it's a PVP game.

The devs walked away from that mistake years ago....I'm fairly sure Cyrodil will eventually be revamped into a PVE zone.

That doesn't mean there will be no PVP, I think they can really expand the arena system, even add a epic questline to it along with better rewards....I can see that really becoming a popular staple for the game.

Was it a mistake. Or was the vision of the game originally PVP centric, and thus, that is the basis of the existence of ESO?

It is clear more thought was put into the combat system in terms of PVP initially. There is no question about. So that is a foundational aspect to our combat system.

Personally, I respect the devs for having a certain vision and carrying it out despite the model having failed multiple times in previous attempts. It seems they didn't really know what to make of this game, or if it would be successful.

Personally, I'm still waiting on the day that the quality of combat in PVE feels on par with that of PVP.

That day has not come yet, imo.

geonsocal · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

My point, in a roundabout way is that PVPers, regarless of game tend to be whiny and entitled.

My personal opinion, the reason I hate all the PVP whinging is that I think ZOS should continue to devote the majority of their resources to creating/improving PVE elements.

okay then immortal...thanks for the explanation and summation of your feelings and opinions

people are people are people...generally painting broad strokes on individuals based on limited exposure - is not such a good thing...

ImmortalCX · November 2018

Squeaky wheel, grease.

Judas Helviaryn · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Squeaky wheel, grease.

You're too late. I saw it.

freespirit · November 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO struggles to survive on the merit of new PVE content alone.

So the only options are to quit, continue your rat race meta-chasing, or be content with being slightly less good than the meta And in the case of this particular thread, accept that ZOS cares a lot more about profit than they do game balance. This game could be PVE only and ZOS would still tie you up in nerfs, grinds, and changing the meta.

See bolded part...……. I enjoy this game immensely, I PVP a lot BUT I do so in less than optimal gear...… do I die a lot.... OMG yes, however I still have fun!

geonsocal · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

Squeaky wheel, grease.

alright, that explains the motivation behind your words...

I'd only add that calling all/most/a majority of pvpers whiney *** probably isn't the most effective or productive method for seeking change...

generally though, people will act out based on their own experiences and behavior reinforcement from their past...it's hard to overcome some of that conditoning...particularly if it occurs early in life...

at the end of the day though - little or none of any of the input any one individual poster may have will have much if any effect on the action of the game's developers...

on a positive note - you helped provide some interest and entertainment with your thread for the forum community

Sylvermynx · November 2018

freespirit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO struggles to survive on the merit of new PVE content alone.

So the only options are to quit, continue your rat race meta-chasing, or be content with being slightly less good than the meta And in the case of this particular thread, accept that ZOS cares a lot more about profit than they do game balance. This game could be PVE only and ZOS would still tie you up in nerfs, grinds, and changing the meta.

See bolded part...……. I enjoy this game immensely, I PVP a lot BUT I do so in less than optimal gear...… do I die a lot.... OMG yes, however I still have fun!

Eh personally.... I've never found pvp fun or anything else but.... well can't say it here considering. However, it's refreshing to see a post like yours.

More power to you.

Rungar · November 2018

pvp was way better in version 1 of this game also known as Dark age of Camelot.

Bhaal5 · November 2018

Minyassa wrote: »

I dunno. Every MMO I've played has had PvP. No one has dared to be different. Show me an MMO that has this level of graphical detail, this much attention to cosmetics and personalization, similar (or better, please) housing, a grand diversity of mounts and pets, all these fascinating classes and skill lines and most importantly the depth of lore and story that ESO has, but without the PvP...or better yet, with private server hosting so we can still PvP but only with people we know and like....and I'll show you the game that will get all of my money forever for the rest of my life. I and the rest of the gang that doesn't like being teabagged or cursed at are just waiting for someone to make it so we can throw our cash at them.

Guild wars 2.
Also adding runs smoothly pretty much all around the world instead of a selected few countries

Has a tournament style system for wvw (cyrodiil) so you dont have to verse the same people for 4 years.

Has had a battlegrounds style pvp since launch and the group finder actually works

Build diversity is on par if not more than eso.

fastolfv_ESO · November 2018

the larger the carebear community the more cry for easier content threads we get that ruine a game for everyone else. See what i did there?

RobZha · November 2018

jainiadral wrote: »

Yeah, it's a personal thing on my part. I hate third party solutions that don't uninstall when you uninstall the game. That install clandestinely without your explicit consent. I have a lot fewer issues with the idea of VAC (don't play any of the games on that list) which uninstalls when you uninstall Steam or something like Blizzard's Warden.

Xigncode stays on your system once you've uninstalled and you have to make several registry tweaks to get rid of it. It's made by a company of dubious origin which isn't the slightest bit transparent to the gaming population. I have no idea what data they're gathering, what they intend to do with it, if the backdoor they've opened in my system can be exploited... There's little to no information and that makes me very cautious.

If it weren't for Xigncode, I'd have probably given BDO a shot during one of the Steam free weekends. It might have been fun for a week or two-- but the whole premise isn't really my cup of tea anyway. It might work for someone who loves PvP. I enjoy it in really, really small doses. And I definitely don't like it in ESO.

I'm the same when it comes to programs like that I think. Having to uninstall something that came with a program separately is something that bugs me too, and registry editing is something that I don't think you should ever have to do when uninstalling something, that's just clearly stupid. Will have more of a look at that to see if that still has to be done, but seeing as I'm a pvp addict and liked the game when I tried it I'll be going ahead with it anyway I think.

If I uninstall (which I don't think I will), I'll just have to deal with any possible registry crap later on if there's not been a better solution to that yet. Hopefully there'll be a player/coder created program that does that registry fix though, actually broke windows last time I was in there and had to reinstall, even if it was a *** mistake that I could've avoided by being more careful.

Nerftheforums · November 2018

Fortunately the Pvp community in eso (pc eu at least) is dying

Hotdog_23 · November 2018

The lag in cyrodiil and game freezing is what is killing PVP. I think they do a good job with overall balance and adjustments. but when you can play other pvp type games without lag and freezing as bad as ESO people will eventually tire of it and move on. It just sucks the fun out of it.

I believe if they could fix the lag they would but they just don't know how to do it without rampant cheating.

Saphayla · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

Of course PvPers complain the most. If there is one class that's more powerful than others, then choosing to play another class in PvE increases the difficulty of the content but the content can still be completed. If I try to do the same in PvP, however, I am at a disadvantage compared to anyone who plays the OP class (which is usually just about everyone) and will have a hard time getting anything done. If you know Heroes of Might and Magic 3, you know how stupidly powerful Necropolis is, and while it's ay-okay in PvE play, abusing it in PvP is a big no no, because you're forcing the enemy to do the same to stand a chance.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

Source, please. Even though I am a PvE player, I see no justification for this "argument".

ImmortalCX wrote: »

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

How is that relevant in any way to your argument? What even is your argument?

Kilnerdyne · November 2018

"PvP is Endgame content"

Att1Tude · November 2018

I didnt read any previous posts. Just my 2c

PVE monsters have no idea of any balance since any move they make is always the same. Cant mix PVE and PVP gameplay in same sentence that has a word Balance anywhere in it. Can you call mother's sorrow broken in same way than for example Sloads was on its release? IF there was no PVP, there would be ZERO balance issues.(Dont get me wrong im a PVP player myself and i definitely dont want PVP gone from game). As how i see it, PVP should be prio in terms of creating a better game, not new content. Since new content seems to come evry 2nd month, and nothing happens to PVP, the focus seems to be the opposite.

IZZEFlameLash · November 2018

PvEr toxicity will surprise you I am sure. PvErs constantly whining about PvPers despite changes made by PvE statistics are also somehow PvPers fault.

ewenness · November 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

BDO is coming to console (xbox one) and I enjoyed the beta so can't wait because at this rate I'm jumping ship.

I hope you're not jumping ship for a more balanced PvP because in BDO not only classes are on a constant rotation of either being underpowered or overpowered but throwing cash at the game also makes you get ahead of others. By that I mean serious PvP requiring an investment of 200-300 dollars per person and over 1000 dollars if you are aiming for the high-end league.

Don't forget about leaving your PC / console turned on with the game running 24/7 for AFK skilling, unless you are okay with being constantly behind everyone else.

eliisra · November 2018

But PvE'ers cry just as much. They just cry about different things like dps imbalance and classes&builds not being equally viable in endgame trials and dungeons. It's especially the case in a game like WoW.

They cry about new PvE content being to hard. Than content gets nerfed and more hardcore PvE'ers will cry that it's dumbed down and catering to casuals. They also cry about pugs, votekick, dungeon queues and a dozen other things.

There's really no difference at all between PvP focused players and more PvE oriented ones. They all cry and complain when they feel their class&build and playstyle isn't being rewarded as much as they'd wish.

Only category of PvE'ers not crying about balance specifically, is casuals only doing landscape and solo questing. But no mmorpg can survive longterm only catering to och producing story-content for casual solo'ers. Mainly because singleplayer games are ten times better if you want a captivating solo experience.

Knootewoot · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

Planetside 2 ?

We used to have Warhammer Online. Yeah the graphics were not as nice as ESO's but the game was older and i thought it looked great for it's time.

Darkfall (Don't know if it even exists anymore)

Battleground Europe (WWII online). The Graphics may not be high detail, but the damage models are. Game is very old though.

EVE?

Hopefully in the future Camelot Unchained. Latest graphics look good to me.

Feanor · November 2018

Kilnerdyne wrote: »

"PvP is Endgame content"

*snip*

It always cracks me up that players who run scripted content to the point where they have it "on farm" think they are somehow something superior.

Katahdin · November 2018

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

temjiu wrote: »

mongoLC wrote: »

This game has a large population? Not seeing that.

Guess it depends on where/what aspect you play. I see people all over the place. most major cities are packed, I see people in the wilderness all over the place, and I usually have at least 1 or 2 people in delves and public dungeons every time I go in. So where I play, there's plenty of folks.

Now, if you queue solely for Cyrodil, or other PvP elements, you may not see as many. DPS queues for group content are slow as per any MMO, so that's no indicator. but PvE? plenty.

Not GW2. Queue times for dps in that game are nearly instant, if not then super quick. But then again GW2's group finder are light years ahead of ESO's. Even tho being dated.

Jeremy wrote: »

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your title. PvP almost always seems to drag the rest of the game down with it while on its endless and impossible quest to create "balance". I'm frankly so sick of having my builds, skills, and entire play styles endlessly screwed with and "nerfed" to accommodate this misguided perception of PvP that everyone is suppose to be balanced.

It's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. It never has happened. They should focus on making PvP and the rest of the game for that matter more fun and just delete the word balance from their vocabulary.

It took ANet about 4 years to come to this realization with GW2. The game is far more balanced now then it was in the past. Because of the split in skills between PvP and PvE.

If ZOS was to do the same. I'd resub and come back to ESO. However ZOS is not the slightest interested in balance at all. They are only interested on destroying players hard built characters and play styles for monetizing purposes. So whatever at least there is a MMO on the market that at least halfheartedly cares, and has all classes at a fun competitive level with each other.

Its been a while since I played GW2.

IIRC, skills weren't always seperate for pve vs pvp at least for WvW but I dont remember now.

GW2 doesn't enforce a hard trinity either unlike ESO unless they changed that too?

I stopped playing when HOT came out because needing a 50 man raid just to get though open r world content and having to repeat the same fetch quest 20 times just to level up was oppressive and boring

SHADOW2KK · November 2018

Eve Online begs to differ, 14/15 year old MMO and still alive, the carebear community on there say the same wah wah things as here, but there at least, death has consequence unlike on ESO.

Against a human opponent will always be more exciting than against an npc, generally the ones who whine are the ones who are bad.