MMO Truth: The larger the PVP community, the less game satisfaction there will be.

ImmortalCX · November 2018

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

Cillion3117 · November 2018

You must be a PVPer.

Gilvoth · November 2018

a very Strong opinion, but, it is just that.
your opinion.
the rest of us disagree.

ImmortalCX · November 2018

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

a very Strong opinion, but, it is just that.
your opinion.
the rest of us disagree.

Can you please answer question #3?

I'm not even sure what the player base wants is feasible.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Well, actually - WoW had (at least when I was playing, long time back now, quit in 2013) a very active large pvp community - on the pvp servers.

Pvp on the normal servers was limited to those who flagged purposely (and some accidents....) intending to find those to battle. And lots of times that devolved into those who were flagged killing quest givers and merchant npcs.

ImmortalCX · November 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, actually - WoW had (at least when I was playing, long time back now, quit in 2013) a very active large pvp community - on the pvp servers.

Pvp on the normal servers was limited to those who flagged purposely (and some accidents....) intending to find those to battle. And lots of times that devolved into those who were flagged killing quest givers and merchant npcs.

I was talking about competitive arena and battlegrounds, not world pvp. World pvp in WOW was just ganking.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Eh, you should have made that clear then. Even when I was briefly on a pvp server with a friend's guild, we didn't do arenas/bgs OR ganking.

Waffennacht · November 2018

As a PvPer I basically agree

More peeps like PvE (kinda obvious imo)

Graphics are amazing

Nope can't name any that are similar for Xbox

yodased · November 2018

1. End game is not pvp since one tamriel.

2. Developers do not concentrate on things that forum members want, they develop what their bosses to tell them to develop, which is established through success metrics and bottom lines.

3. Graphical fidelity is not the measure of success most would associate with a pvp centric game. Fluid combat, lotus of controls, high frame rate, low ping and combat balance are the metrics most associated with PVP.

Forums represent a tiny % of players, pvp specific players on the forum represent and even smaller % of that tiny %.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

Wrong. Yes mmos typically have more pve but endgame is usually pvp.

Rygonix · November 2018

I will try to answer your questions as honestly as I can.

For number 1 the game seems to lean more towards PvE and completing the hardest challenges ZoS has set forth. Also, the reason there are so many reported problems on the forum is because unlike on the PvE side of things, massive bugs in PvP go on unfixed for far longer than they should - like ZoS is simply turning a blind eye to them. Therefore we have to keep reminding them in hope that eventually catch their attention and get a fix in the mix.

For number two; that unfortunately seems to be ZOS's mindset. But if that's the case why even have the three-banner war to begin with? The factions literally mean nothing mechanics-wise outside of Cyrodiil. Also there are plenty of VERY successful PvP-centric games out there raking in millions of dollars annually. It's just that mixing an MMORPG with PvP has proven to be a very difficult task.

And for number three - to get this much detail and still get good performance in Cyrodiil you have to make sacrifices. So far as we've seen massive PvP battles with all of the calculations the server processors must make each millisecond (or faster) causes it to fall behind on the clients' demands, causing lag. I want to say it barely supports hundreds of players before it decides to disconnect random users to free up bandwidth.

I have yet to see an MMORPG handle such a big environment with a lot of action without causing (major) lack of performance outside of the control of the end user.

temjiu · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

1) I have been playing this game since release, and I have yet to step into PvP areas with rare exceptions to grab a few skyshards. I solely PvE and I don't believe this game leans towards PvP as it's endgame at all. On the contrary, it's hard to find a game that has this level of story detail and pure PvE content On a side note, not sure if you intended this or not, but your inclusion that the game is PvP heavy is opinion and biased, and yet you throw it in as an assumed fact. So your either trying to get people to believe that on purpose, or you were simply unaware. Either way not worded well.

2) I agree. There is very little PvP catering in this game. I honestly think they need to do a bit more for the PvP community to deal with PvP related bugs and foster more involvement in Campaigns and such. I only agree with this since PvP is already in the game (I would be perfectly happy if it didn't exist). But if you got it, might as well do it right. Just don't mess with my PvE please, or the Camaraderie dies here.

3) There are plenty of games with interesting and solid graphics that have good PvP. I would name some, but you may simply disagree. It largely depends on what you classify as Good graphics. I always enjoyed WoW's graphical style, and Blade and soul was always very interesting in it's graphical context and design, and both have very solid PvP aspects. GW2 does as well, though it doesn't match the graphic detail...though it also is more stylized in it's design, whereas ESO tends towards "realistic" style of graphics. So in many ways it's really an apples vs. oranges debate when it comes to graphics. In relations to PvP content, there's tons of games out there that are solely PvP focused and have plenty of PvP content. ESO is honestly average in it's PvP content. I would admit that a map the scale of Cyrodil is not too common...but at the same time, it's also empty 85% of the time...perhaps there's reasons why other PvP games don't embrace that concept?

Overall, it seems to me that you are very biased towards PvP, and especially PvP in ESO, and are trying to come across as
"Neutral" to not appear as such. I do not want to come across as accusatory, so I apologize if this isn't the case. But your questions are worded in ways that seriously ring my warning bells.

dem0n1k · November 2018

1. ESO doesn't 'lean towards PVP as end-game' IMO. It has end-game PVE content & PVP. It's up to the individual player to choose what they prefer as end-game... or do both.
2. Sensible game developers would see that including PVP & PVE game options are going to appeal to a broader player base. To say "Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier." obviously isn't going to make players that prefer PVP happier... only players that prefer PVE content. However, even if ESO was PVE only... there would still be bucket loads of complaints & discontent.
3. No.

VaranisArano · November 2018

ESO struggles to survive on the merit of new PVE content alone.

We see this as ZOS adds incredible grinds to lengthen player time spent in new DLC content. They've outright said lots of their players come for new chapters and then fall away. They also are forced to artificially generate horizontal progression through rounds of nerfing the meta. This last is true even if the game were PVE only.

Moreover, the easiest ways for ZOS to add new end-game content, the most bang for their buck, are the comparatively limited DLC Dungeon packs (PVE) and Battlegrounds Maps and Modes (PVP). Chapters and quest DLC take a lot of work, and Cyrodiil has performance issues ZOS seems unable to fix.

So this isn't going to change. New Dungeons and new battlegrounds are profitable for the effort they take and tide players over, with the constant rat race of nerfs and grinding and meta chasing to keep players feeling like they are sort of kind of progressing.

Thats true whether the game caters to PVP or PVE or both.

So the only options are to quit, continue your rat race meta-chasing, or be content with being slightly less good than the meta. And in the case of this particular thread, accept that ZOS cares a lot more about profit than they do game balance. This game could be PVE only and ZOS would still tie you up in nerfs, grinds, and changing the meta.

Emmagoldman · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

PCP must be real good these days!
1. Endgame doesn’t lean people into pvp. If you like pvp, then pvp. If you pve, pve. Where are you getting this? There are people who just role play, decorate house and erp.

2. They cater to everyone, and in terms of development, pvp is on the bottom of the list.

There is one large pvp map that has had three flags added in cities, bridges and outposts
Dueling
The sewers and ic are both pvp and pve (hybrid)
4 bg maps

Pve is MASSIVE
Pve has 24 dungeons
6 trials
2 4 person trials
Maelstrom
There are also 26 pve open world maps...........
Public dungeons, 1 per map
They don’t compare at all, please stop

3. You are talking about mmos and balance. Does detail matter? I only played one more mmo and that was Fallen earth. It had a full map that was a pvp area and the game had six maps, most areas were pve but on each map there were 2 to three pvp zones. The factions fought for territory control which saw slight boost to exp gained. If this was applied to eso, each of the 26 open world areas would have two pvp areas. One or two with forts and the other with flags.

Balance from pvp comes from it being vp.
Pvp is competitive and requires a higher degree of general balance as your goal is to try to outskill a human. So of course, there is every emotion tied to anything that is competitive. Could you imagine if the bulls in their prime time played in a little kids sports league and went all out?

From pvers, you see calls to buff everything even though there is a MASSIVE power creep. They are happy with being able to just burn through content regardless of how powerful they are. Yet a majority of the pve community gives up in maelstrom or ignore vet trials or vet dlc because it requires mechanics and playing well. Look at the last sets from summer set. All way over performing. If people wanted a challenge, there should be calls to nerf those sets. As long as I can pull huge dps, who care right?

Last on balance, zos generally fail to deliver on what is good for either pvp or pve so why point the finger?

Sylvermynx · November 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO struggles to survive on the merit of new PVE content alone.

We see this as ZOS adds incredible grinds to lengthen player time spent in new DLC content. They've outright said lots of their players come for new chapters and then fall away. They also are forced to artificially generate horizontal progression through rounds of nerfing the meta. This last is true even if the game were PVE only.

Moreover, the easiest ways for ZOS to add new end-game content, the most bang for their buck, are the comparatively limited DLC Dungeon packs (PVE) and Battlegrounds Maps and Modes (PVP). Chapters and quest DLC take a lot of work, and Cyrodiil has performance issues ZOS seems unable to fix.

So this isn't going to change. New Dungeons and new battlegrounds are profitable for the effort they take and tide players over, with the constant rat race of nerfs and grinding and meta chasing to keep players feeling like they are sort of kind of progressing.

Thats true whether the game caters to PVP or PVE or both.

So the only options are to quit, continue your rat race meta-chasing, or be content with being slightly less good than the meta. And in the case of this particular thread, accept that ZOS cares a lot more about profit than they do game balance. This game could be PVE only and ZOS would still tie you up in nerfs, grinds, and changing the meta.

Actually, so far (and yes, I haven't played long at all) I'm not finding this game anywhere close to as grindy as either WoW or RIFT. Perhaps that because I have eschewed fishing....

And it's also because my expectations have changed: I no longer care about "end game". I care about exploring and having fun. After burn out on WoW and RIFT, I refuse to mess with "end game" period.

Tannus15 · November 2018

1) We did vMoL LAST NIGHT and some of the orbs in the backroom were invisible to our runners. We did vHoF last week and the centurians on the pinnacle were not "pwoering down" when killed so we ended up with 3 huge robots standing around the tank making his life harder than it needs to be.

The current unhappiness is not a PvP issue, it's a bugs issue. There are lots of bugs and vet trials are hard enough without a bunch of bugs making life difficult.

2) Because it's a low cost high reward end game. You don't need new content, you just need to tweak the balance and let the players make the content for you. They will always be pissed off, but it's totally worth the effort.

3) No, the best of the PvP MMO's I played was Warhammer online. I wish PvP had player collision. Being able to have tanks physically block pathways was awesome.

AcadianPaladin · November 2018

I believe ESO depends on robust solo, PvE group and PvP player bases to remain solvent. Though I am primarily a soloist, I want success and enjoyment for those who enjoy the other aspects of ESO.

What I think tends to drive a wedge between the differing player types is the failure to balance PvP and PvE separately. I know balancing them together is ZOS' adamant policy but how many years of divisive and poor attempts to 'balance' does it take to reevaluate that policy?

ImmortalCX · November 2018

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I believe ESO depends on robust solo, PvE group and PvP player bases to remain solvent. Though I am primarily a soloist, I want success and enjoyment for those who enjoy the other aspects of ESO.

What I think tends to drive a wedge between the differing player types is the failure to balance PvP and PvE separately. I know balancing them together is ZOS' adamant policy but how many years of divisive and poor attempts to 'balance' does it take to reevaluate that policy?

Wow balanced them separately by having specific pvp gear with resistances you would need.

Eso could do something similar. 2pc weapon sets with pvp weapons that had ++impale (or some such), and 5pc sets that provided resistance to such dmg. Ppl would need a 2pc pvp weapon set, a 5pc set for resistances, and could choose another 5pc set for bonuses.

They would have to rework the cp system..but it seems they could balance pvp more easily by requiring certain sets.

mongoLC · November 2018

This game has a large population? Not seeing that.

temjiu · November 2018

mongoLC wrote: »

This game has a large population? Not seeing that.

Guess it depends on where/what aspect you play. I see people all over the place. most major cities are packed, I see people in the wilderness all over the place, and I usually have at least 1 or 2 people in delves and public dungeons every time I go in. So where I play, there's plenty of folks.

Now, if you queue solely for Cyrodil, or other PvP elements, you may not see as many. DPS queues for group content are slow as per any MMO, so that's no indicator. but PvE? plenty.

temjiu · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I believe ESO depends on robust solo, PvE group and PvP player bases to remain solvent. Though I am primarily a soloist, I want success and enjoyment for those who enjoy the other aspects of ESO.

What I think tends to drive a wedge between the differing player types is the failure to balance PvP and PvE separately. I know balancing them together is ZOS' adamant policy but how many years of divisive and poor attempts to 'balance' does it take to reevaluate that policy?

Wow balanced them separately by having specific pvp gear with resistances you would need.

Eso could do something similar. 2pc weapon sets with pvp weapons that had ++impale (or some such), and 5pc sets that provided resistance to such dmg. Ppl would need a 2pc pvp weapon set, a 5pc set for resistances, and could choose another 5pc set for bonuses.

They would have to rework the cp system..but it seems they could balance pvp more easily by requiring certain sets.

Id totally be for this. Anything to separate PvP and PvE more gets my Vote. I personally believe after decades of playing MMO's that the two are too different to balance them together.

Heimpai · November 2018

For a game that leans on pvp..they sure do avoid issues they’ve known about since forever

Throwing more *** at us doesn’t fix the existing problems

And I’m not referring to balance

mb10 · November 2018

Do anti PVPers really enjoy fighting the same bosses, trials and dungeons over and over again?
Knowing the exact mechanics and exact time to do their skills

Seems so so boring...

Ertosi · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

BDO. Same level? No cause it knocks all the other MMOs out of the park graphics-wise. Also way bigger scale of PvP seeing how it has open world PvP rather than tucking PvP off in its own little region. I still prefer ESO though cause I

the world and lore of Nirn, but seeing how you asked, there you go.

temjiu · November 2018

mb10 wrote: »

Do anti PVPers really enjoy fighting the same bosses, trials and dungeons over and over again?
Knowing the exact mechanics and exact time to do their skills

Seems so so boring...

Pick your poison I guess. I play ESO to relax and escape, and for me thats immersing myself in a vibrant fantasy world with great storytelling, and ESO does that very well. I've been playing since release and still have yet to place foot in a PvP game / Occasional forays into Cyrodil for skyshards hardly qualify...I'm usually just fodder for any serious PvP players that actually come up on me.

But ill level alts till the cows come home, run group content just to hang out with guildees and get a good vibe, and craft till I'm sick of it, then wash rinse repeat.

Tannus15 · November 2018

mb10 wrote: »

Do anti PVPers really enjoy fighting the same bosses, trials and dungeons over and over again?
Knowing the exact mechanics and exact time to do their skills

Seems so so boring...

Yeah, don't confuse PvE trial's people with anti-PvPer's.

The top of the Vivec AD emp leader board is in my progression guild. I reckon half our guild are PvP'ers who wanted to try some PvE. It's like being bi-curious

Vapirko · November 2018

I fail to see the point of this thread.

usmcjdking · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

3) B-R5RB.

Jeremy · November 2018

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I'm not an MMO historian, but my experience with WOW was that PVPers were the ones who complained the most loudly about balance and performance.

So my questions:

1) Is it any surprise that ESO, a game that leans towards PVP in the endgame, has so many reported problems (here, in forum)?

2) Why would any game developer in their right mind cater to PVPers? Adding PVE content seems to be the sure path to making players happier.

3) Can you name any other MMO that has/had the same level of graphical detail AND scale of PVP combat? Is there another game with a Cyrodil sized map that supports hundreds of players, with high level of graphical detail? (Honestly, I dont know, but it seems unlikely)

I tend to agree with the sentiment of your title. PvP almost always seems to drag the rest of the game down with it while on its endless and impossible quest to create "balance". I'm frankly so sick of having my builds, skills, and entire play styles endlessly screwed with and "nerfed" to accommodate this misguided perception of PvP that everyone is suppose to be balanced.

It's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. It never has happened. They should focus on making PvP and the rest of the game for that matter more fun and just delete the word balance from their vocabulary.

Feanor · November 2018

@Jeremy

PvE isn’t balanced either. Balance just doesn’t matter in 95% of PvE content because it’s so easy.