A Matter of Mathematics

Marshmallowfluf · November 2018

98% of the time. 25k dps > 50k dps.

Seems wrong to you? Let me explain.

Random Four Man Team: 1 Healer, 1 Tank, 2 50k DPS. A and B.

50k DPS A does fine.
50k DPS B, is dead half the fight and does 25k dps, but that is still OK right?

Wrong.

DPS A spent half the fight resurrecting DPS B. So DPS A also only did only 25k dps.

So how much dps has 50k DPS B actually added to the total group dps?

25k dps?

No, exactly zero dps.

Because 50k dps - 25k dps due to deaths - 25k dps subtracted from DPS A = 0 DPS.

And DPS B was so proud of himself for still pulling 25k dps, even with so many deaths.
(His flawless add-on even showed him how well he was doing! Still 50% of group dps!)

If DPS B took off his glass-cannon meta gear, and put on some actual armor, you know, so he didn't die constantly.

Total Group dps would have been 75k dps. Instead of only 50k dps.

And that's why 98% of the time. 25k dps > 50k dps.

By the way.

If you are doing mental math right now adding up your deaths, you are DPS B.

If you are remembering that time when you were so proud of still pulling so much DPS even though you were dead, you are DPS B.

In fact, chances are very good that you or someone you know is DPS B.

Feel free to share this message with everyone.

Maybe we can help some people improve their math and help everyone enjoy the game more by dying less.

By the way.

I create content.

Check it out if you like.

Not because you are DPS B of course.

Just because you are a curious DPS A and want to see what a lowly DPS B might choose to wear.

Or what they could do. With trash pots, easy rotations, no buff management, double barred self heals, actual resistances, and 25k+ DPS.

You never know. They might actually enjoy playing the game. Instead of just playing the add-ons.

Those oh so flawless add-ons.

Cheers.

MarshMumbles on YouTube
https://discord.gg/VgdNCmk

Royaji · November 2018

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

ATomiX96 · November 2018

Royaji wrote: »

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

^ This

RANKK7 · November 2018

Royaji wrote: »

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

Don't be so sure about it.

There are fantasctic dummy dps, machines in static and safe environment but it's all to see in actual combat, I've seen myself ppl in action that aren't so able to stay alive as you think, despite the impressive numbers they can pull on dummies.

I still remember long time ago a post by a real top player here, Alcast: "Player 1 does 25k dps, does not die, player 2 does 35k dps, keeps dieing at least once or twice in the run, what player would you keep?"

It's something I've seen myself and definitely it exists.

Slack · November 2018

How about 50k dps dude sees the other guy just keeps dying all the time and doesn't give a crap about resurrecting, because it still plenty of damage for group dungeons?

Rungar · November 2018

People die because they are paying more attention to pressing buttons rather than the game. buttonmasher combined with one shot everything is certainly interesting.

MaxwellC · November 2018

Why is the DD resurrecting in the first place? A healer or a tank could do it and I've done it playing both those roles as a DK with randoms.

redspecter23 · November 2018

If I got the theme here the short version is that dead players do less than zero dps because someone has to waste time raising them. Try to not die so much.

VaranisArano · November 2018

That was a long way to say that DDs should focus on pulling a sustainable level of DPS that they can survive while doing it...

Taleof2Cities · November 2018

“60% of the time it works every time.”

- Brian Fantana (Anchorman)

JobooAGS · November 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

Why is the DD resurrecting in the first place? A healer or a tank could do it and I've done it playing both those roles as a DK with randoms.

Playing devil's advocate but if the tank reses, that means they arent blocking or taunting meaning either the tank dies or loses taunt and the boss kills the other dps or healer. If the healer reses, then the other dps and the tank will get little to no heals risking either of them dying. If the dps reses, you will just get less dps.

Thoughts?

GreenhaloX · November 2018

I got a headache just seeing the title of your thread here..

. Damn, Poindexter.. ha ha. For us normal people/players, it's press attack, 1,2,3, then target, boss goes down. Yayy...

malicia · November 2018

Most trials follow a certain inverse relationship - for some reason the top dummy DPSers tend to have less entries in my death counter. Maybe it’s because they spent more time honing their skills, maybe they’re more experienced and know the mechanics better.

Sure, sometimes ppl are at the bottom of the death counter despite having low DPS, but that seems to be the minority.

As for myself - I tend to be smack bang in the middle of both. Yet I do play with the usual squishy meta gear.

SirAndy · November 2018

I stopped reading after "Random Four Man Team" ...

When i pug with randoms, i expect to solo the dungeon and carry everyone (and i'm perfectly *fine* with that).

If you are expecting anything else, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Saucy_Jack · November 2018

I stopped reading.

After I realized.

That the OP can't write whatever they're saying in a regular paragraph.

Like a normal person.

MaxwellC · November 2018

JobooAGS wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Why is the DD resurrecting in the first place? A healer or a tank could do it and I've done it playing both those roles as a DK with randoms.

Playing devil's advocate but if the tank reses, that means they arent blocking or taunting meaning either the tank dies or loses taunt and the boss kills the other dps or healer. If the healer reses, then the other dps and the tank will get little to no heals risking either of them dying. If the dps reses, you will just get less dps.

Thoughts?

@JobooAGS
Then that's a very bad tank.
When I tank I've got a close range and long range taunt + in regular dungeons there aren't a lot of one hit encounters so I could easily take the damage.
The healer should be healing too so I'm not sure why the healer will somehow stop healing or won't even throw down a mitigating ultimate like that from the resto line (if they're not a templar) or a nova.
As a tank I'd at-least think they would be utilizing a mitigating ultimate themselves like the 1h/shield line or as a DK magma/corrosive armor. When I perform the support roles, my team shouldn't be worrying about ressing if someone dies because I will take over that job so the damage isn't dropping significantly thus prolonging the fight.

If you wanna mention healer than I've got plenty for that too as I performed healing as a DK in vDSA,vMaw (last boss too), vHRC, vAA, and a bit of vSanctum but to be fair I hate Sanctum.

usmguy1234 · November 2018

I would argue that there is a difference between theoretical dps and actual dps. This is why parses inside of a vacuum have little to no meaning. The parses in a vacuum are maxima and the scenario where everyone is dead is the minima. The actual dps lies somewhere in between. The two major factors that decide what end of that spectrum the player lies are mechanics and rotation (and maybe a little luck (rng)).

Ogou · November 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Why is the DD resurrecting in the first place? A healer or a tank could do it and I've done it playing both those roles as a DK with randoms.

Playing devil's advocate but if the tank reses, that means they arent blocking or taunting meaning either the tank dies or loses taunt and the boss kills the other dps or healer. If the healer reses, then the other dps and the tank will get little to no heals risking either of them dying. If the dps reses, you will just get less dps.

Thoughts?

@JobooAGS
Then that's a very bad tank.
When I tank I've got a close range and long range taunt + in regular dungeons there aren't a lot of one hit encounters so I could easily take the damage.
The healer should be healing too so I'm not sure why the healer will somehow stop healing or won't even throw down a mitigating ultimate like that from the resto line (if they're not a templar) or a nova.
As a tank I'd at-least think they would be utilizing a mitigating ultimate themselves like the 1h/shield line or as a DK magma/corrosive armor. When I perform the support roles, my team shouldn't be worrying about ressing if someone dies because I will take over that job so the damage isn't dropping significantly thus prolonging the fight.

If you wanna mention healer than I've got plenty for that too as I performed healing as a DK in vDSA,vMaw (last boss too), vHRC, vAA, and a bit of vSanctum but to be fair I hate Sanctum.

The problem with the tank rezzing is that if they keep the boss taunted (which they should) they will also be the targets of the heavy attacks from the boss or any other CC attacks the boss has which will cancel the rezz, causing the rezz to take longer than if the DPS did it instead.
Healers have a similar problem in that whoever is rezzing has to commit to the rezzing or risk having to start over. Which means they cannot react to any "oh sh*t" moment happening while they're rezzing. Also, whoever is rezzing becomes vulnerable since the can't react to mechanics properly which is why the healer needs to focus their attention on the rezzer to counter the extra damage they are going to take. And that is not so easy to do if the healer is the one rezzing.
I'm not saying that a DPS should always be the one rezzing but they are both the safest and fastest option. Also, of course, none of this matters if the dungeon is a cakewalk for you.

D0PAMINE · November 2018

Edit: Posted in the wrong thread. fml

MaxwellC · November 2018

@Ogou
Just like the other guy mate you are both advocating for star alignment; Everything obviously falls apart as soon as one person dies? Come on mate.

People can res smartly and again this is group content so if the tank for some reason can't do it then the healer can throw up all their HoTs/ultimate and res the person/vise versa. Also correct me if I'm wrong since I've forgotten but when you res someone they don't auto get up, they have to accept it so why can't they wait for X heavy attack to fade?

Facefister · November 2018

Royaji wrote: »

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

Don't burst their bubble, let them live their delusion.

adeptusminor · November 2018

People who are consistently parsing 50k don't have to think about their rotation, they obviously have it down to muscle memory.

People who parse 25k obviously haven't practiced their rotation and still need to think about what skills to press, and when.

People who don't need to think about their rotation can focus more on following mechanics and not dying.

QED people who parse 50k are less likely to die

D0PAMINE · November 2018

adeptusminor wrote: »

People who are consistently parsing 50k don't have to think about their rotation, they obviously have it down to muscle memory.

People who parse 25k obviously haven't practiced their rotation and still need to think about what skills to press, and when.

People who don't need to think about their rotation can focus more on following mechanics and not dying.

QED people who parse 50k are less likely to die

Not quite, even people spammimg one or two skills can keep a shield or heal up or not stand in red. DPS parse is not a medium to judge a players survivability.

adeptusminor · November 2018

D0PAMINE wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

People who are consistently parsing 50k don't have to think about their rotation, they obviously have it down to muscle memory.

People who parse 25k obviously haven't practiced their rotation and still need to think about what skills to press, and when.

People who don't need to think about their rotation can focus more on following mechanics and not dying.

QED people who parse 50k are less likely to die

Not quite, even people spammimg one or two skills can keep a shield or heal up or not stand in red. DPS parse is not a medium to judge a players survivability.

If a person is only parsing 25k they obviously don't even know what key binds trigger what abilities and those people are likely to die because they have to stare at their keyboard for minutes at a time trying to find their shield button or movement keys

kargen27 · November 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Why is the DD resurrecting in the first place? A healer or a tank could do it and I've done it playing both those roles as a DK with randoms.

Playing devil's advocate but if the tank reses, that means they arent blocking or taunting meaning either the tank dies or loses taunt and the boss kills the other dps or healer. If the healer reses, then the other dps and the tank will get little to no heals risking either of them dying. If the dps reses, you will just get less dps.

Thoughts?

@JobooAGS
Then that's a very bad tank.
When I tank I've got a close range and long range taunt + in regular dungeons there aren't a lot of one hit encounters so I could easily take the damage.
The healer should be healing too so I'm not sure why the healer will somehow stop healing or won't even throw down a mitigating ultimate like that from the resto line (if they're not a templar) or a nova.
As a tank I'd at-least think they would be utilizing a mitigating ultimate themselves like the 1h/shield line or as a DK magma/corrosive armor. When I perform the support roles, my team shouldn't be worrying about ressing if someone dies because I will take over that job so the damage isn't dropping significantly thus prolonging the fight.

If you wanna mention healer than I've got plenty for that too as I performed healing as a DK in vDSA,vMaw (last boss too), vHRC, vAA, and a bit of vSanctum but to be fair I hate Sanctum.

Tank doesn't need to be doing the res's unless the player is dead right near him. If the tank has to move much to get the res he is dragging evil doers out of AoE potentially. With four man content sure it is fine for the healer to do the res's but that has as much potential to lower DPS and the added bonus of maybe having another group member die. Healers usually keep a few buffs up on the group and debuffs on the boss. Either way someone is coming out of their rotation to res and it is going to affect the fight. Some fights it makes sense for the healer to res others the DPS needs to do it.

And why waste an ultimate just to res someone?

DocFrost72 · November 2018

Facefister wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

Don't burst their bubble, let them live their delusion.

I mean... in a way they're not quite wrong. Swapping hunding's for fortified brass on my meta built stamplar results in a roughly 10% dps loss (31k dropped to roughly 28.5k with brass). This is with no outside buffs whatsoever. Not even a nb using mark.

That 3kish dps loss translates to (assuming a 6 mil hp boss, 3 mil I am responsible for) a 9 second difference in time (96.77- 105.26 seconds hunding's - brass). Negligible at best. Let's assume more though, even if you *double* the HP you're responsible for (maybe the other dps dies or maybe you're in a trial), you're talking an 18 second difference.

For that small of a difference, I am brain dead easy to heal and very hard to kill unless (and sometimes even if lmao) the tank loses aggro.

So in a way it comes down to what you're doing. I'd legitimately expect an easier prog clear with 2/8 28.5k fort brass "tank dps" than 2/8 meta builds, assuming the content is foreign to the dps.

Now if you're talking score, literally every second matters.

Waffennacht · November 2018

I don't believe a PUG has 1 50k dps let alone 2

paulsimonps · November 2018

In most situations if a team mate dies in 4 man content I will try to rez them as the tank, doesn't lower dose, healer keeps healing those that are still alive and all is good. It's not hard to know when it's safe to Rez, in a lot of the contents it's whenever. And really guys, the whole idea of tanks dragging Sanger to people... First off the person I am supposedly dragging it too is dead, no harm, second, most bosses don't even have anything dangerous to drag

adeptusminor · November 2018

If someone is only doing 25k dps in the year two thousand eighteen they likely barely manage to breath and blink at the same time, let alone be some mechanic wonderkin who never dies

JinMori · November 2018

Royaji wrote: »

In reality, 50k DDs have no issues with survivability because you know, they are good players. It's the 25k guys that spend half the fight on the floor.

Yes, pretty much, this post is another "no dps when you are dead thread" completely omitting the fact that usually people who get 50 k + dps, usually have good understanding of mechanics, because in many cases they are good players, ad a result, they die much less, than your 25k dps or less.

This is again bs, you can decorate it with big words like mathematical and all of that but it's still bs.

Marshmallowfluf · November 2018

You all seem to have gotten really distracted by the 50k number in my example. When I noticed this happening in game, the actual numbers were more like 18k and 42k I believe, but they could also have been 19k and 38k, or 25k and 50k like in the example. The actual DPS numbers themselves aren't so important. (DPS numbers not important? What? Blasphemy!)

The post is just an interesting way to get you to consider how adding a bit of defense to your DPS build, could actually significantly increase total group DPS for your team.

And how add-on programs don't show you the whole story.

Should everyone do this? Nope, I admit there are some crazy good players that pull huge numbers and somehow never die. #jealous

Is that most people though? Nope, most people aren't so amazing. And adding a little defense would turn many an average or mediocre DPS into truly great players.

That's all I was trying to do with this post.

Making you consider why meta glass-cannon isn't always most DPS.

Cheers.