So last night guild chat blew up..and bit of "nerf "rant in the end

Royaji · November 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Sadly, the Magsorc ambassador isn't very active, and it seems the others are having to step in to cover.

They have always stated that there are no representatives for specific classes. Every representative gathers feedback from every player.

albesca · November 2018

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Im disappointed, sadden and scared that somebody with your status that is suposed to represent us has no compassion and emotion for us normal players.

Compassion? Emotion? Are you serious? Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be so invested in a character in a game to feel the need for compassion over a skill change?

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

albesca wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Im disappointed, sadden and scared that somebody with your status that is suposed to represent us has no compassion and emotion for us normal players.

Compassion? Emotion? Are you serious? Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be so invested in a character in a game to feel the need for compassion over a skill change?

And maybe you should think about what the class rep program was about: to gather players feedback, sum it up and put it through to the developers. Now we obviously have a large group of players that are unhappy with a change. But instead of pushing this through to the devs, that class rep decides to tell players that it's all fine. Makes that class rep program a bit nonsensical.

albesca · November 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And maybe you should think about what the class rep program was about: to gather players feedback, sum it up and put it through to the developers. Now we obviously have a large group of players that are unhappy with a change. But instead of pushing this through to the devs, that class rep decides to tell players that it's all fine. Makes that class rep program a bit nonsensical.

I agree that class reps should bring players concerns to the attention of the devs, but I also think that this kind of emotional approach to changes in the game hurts any attempt at an objective analysis of the impacts of said changes

Veinblood1965 · November 2018

It's why I quit playing WOW a few years back and haven't played anything since. I think it was called a hunter? Just drastic changes overnight and everyone said oh hey just adapt. I spent a long time building him just the way I liked and then BAM overnight was no fun at all. These changes don't seem to be so bad on my magsorc with pet but then again I don't PVP. But yes it does spell the beginning of the end for me if it keeps up to the point where the one character I like to play is unplayable without being a chore.

Joy_Division · November 2018

@ForsakenSin -

If you are going to accuse me of stuff, then at least get it right:

There are no magsorc ambassadors. There are no specific class reps. We all provide feedback as a whole.

Also I am not arguing with you. I am pointing out that

dose anyone know what changes were made to magica sorc? what is this BS? " ... " why would they do this?" " i am done with this @##$%

sort of incoherent anger does nothing to help the devs understand what they should do to make the class better or the reps understand what your issues with the class are. It sucks now, my old build was ruined does not help. The game does not revolve around you or anyone else's specific build. As long as the class is capable of altering some things and still perform at a competitive level, then the class power or potential is not the issue that needs fixing.

You are still calling the patch "nerfmire," you aren't even trying to be objective .

You refusing to change your build is a you problem, not a ZOS problem, not a balance problem, not a class problem. Yes, as a class rep I am telling you that might be something that you have to do because that's the reality of playing any game that has balance changes. Yes, as a class rep I am telling you that because I have changed my own Templar build numerous times in the past year to accommodate the updates. In fact what I run now is totally different. And it's superior. I am not asking you or anyone else to do anything that I and other have not done ourselves.

And as far as templars go, you are barking up the wrong tree. Yes, last year I posted a extensive list of what was wrong with the templar. And guess what?

The majority of those issues have been addressed to the point where the class is a lot more enjoyable to play. And that's not just my opinion. Many templars, both stamina and magicka, will acknowledge that templars have come a long way in the past year. I wonder why that is?

Could it possibly be because since ZOS was given a specific, relevant, up-to-date, list with clear examples and evidence, they were much better informed exactly what needed to be reformed, why templars needed help, and how these issues were connected to the game as a whole? Because when ZOS asked me what pain points the templars have, I didn't just give the incoherent rage of my build sucks now, I'm quitting. I had my opinions, but I also sought out the assessments of numerous other templars (see my tags in the templar post) to make sure the information I had was cross-checked with others.

Just because I am not an echo chamber and applaud a post based on emotion that lacks specifics and evidence does not mean I lack compassion. You seem to be under the impression that expressing anger and telling ZOS people quit the day after a patch launched constitutes a compelling argument that ZOS should do ... what exactly? The OP does not have a single suggestion, let alone an analysis of why such a suggestion would improve the overall game

I am telling you something you do not want to hear: that sort of post is not helpful into identifying, let alone, addressing, the sorts of issues ZOS should fix when it comes to sorcerers. Because I choose not to delude you thinking otherwise, that does not mean I'm lacking compassion. That's not being "against you." It's being against unproductive and emotionally driven arguments.

For your information, by far the class I have the second most time played with is sorcerer. So, you are quite mistaken to assume that somehow I am against the class or against your desire to see the class improve. If a templar comes onto these forums and spreads misinformation about the class in an emotionally charged rant, I will tell them the same thing I told you for the same reasons: it is not helpful to have emotionally driven information out there without any evidence to corroborate it because it just makes it harder for people who might not agree with the premise that templars (or whatever class) is quitworthy bad.

That you had to actually ask me what sort of evidence you ought to provide is odd, but whatever. How about a DPS parse comparing sorcerer to say the classes that are kicking them out of trials as you claim? Or are the devs simply supposed to accept that your word is absolute truth? Or some footage from a trial that shows only sorcerers are dying (while all the other classes are surviving) to boss DPS spikes to show that they were specifically screwed by these changes? PvP footage to demonstrate that even when played competently and correctly, they are outmatched by certain classes? How about a mathematical demonstration that their sustain is indeed significantly worse than all the other classes? Doing such would be very compelling, particularly to whom sorcerers need to convince: skeptical devs.

I am not asking you to do anything that I have not done. You have looked at my templar post and seem more interested in trying to see how I am being hypocritical instead of comprehending that maybe, just maybe, I don't just talk the talk. Yes, that templar post took a fair amount of effort and research to do. But that's really all I asking for.

ForsakenSin · November 2018

@Joy_Division

"If you are going to accuse me of stuff, then at least get it right:

There are no magsorc ambassadors. There are no specific class reps. We all provide feedback as a whole."

Fair enough i apologize i didn't know that, but thanks now that i know it answers allot of my questions.

Why would you assume i refused to alter my build? i did and tried various items and setting but i could not find the balance like before so i changed to stamsorc and i had items from years ago to make it work and its good. This post was not about me it was what has happen and what i heard due to the nerfs of shield that is all.

"Just because I am not an echo chamber and applaud a post based on emotion that lacks specifics and evidence does not mean I lack compassion. You seem to be under the impression that expressing anger and telling ZOS people quit the day after a patch launched constitutes a compelling argument that ZOS should do ... what exactly? The OP does not have a single suggestion, let alone an analysis of why such a suggestion would improve the overall game"

Im sorry but if im running a business and i see the numbers suddenly go down and unsubscribing it would make me worry and warrant a look into it see what is happening unless i had enough subscribers and didn't care. Of course i didn't give any suggestions or analysis this thread was not about any suggestions or analysis i was pointing out what has happen and my thoughts about calling nerfs ect did you read all of my post?

As you pointed it out its your second favo class not first, your first is Templar and that is where your passion with the class is and reason why you made such a big post and videos and people want you to represent Templar class nothing wrong with that, is great for the Templar ,but i would just like to know who is the ambassadors who's first main is magica sorc and is passionate about that class like you are about Templar.

People are emotional because they are passionate about the game, when people stop being emotional ( or we become Vulcans ) that is when people would not give 2 cents about this game anymore and leave, passion and love for the elder scroll is what keeps on people coming back to this game its what game developers want for the players to get emotional invested to get hooked, yes not the best way to raise your opinion but it should be as indicator something is wrong.

Yes i was saying your hypocritical that would say one thing to us and not apply that your self but i was also praising you and the passion you have for the Templar how much time and effort you placed into the threads and videos to make changes or to raise the issues and we need a class ambassador for the magsorc like that and yet nobody has done it.

Anyway this discussion is getting off the topic here

You mentioned that your magsorc is fine and better can you post detailed build your running to help others who might be interested in reading this and i can also advise the guilds as well if they are looking for some ideas to change?

Joy_Division · November 2018

The patch is new, especially for the folks on consoles, which is why I think it's a knee jerk reaction to say the class is trash. There simply has not been enough time to thoroughly test and compare the new sorts of builds out there for those people who may have just gotten the patch.

As far as advice, your shield is not only bigger, but potentially stronger as you don;t need bastion CP and now Pirate Skeleton looks (again) attractive to give you major protection on the shields. Or Bloodspawn for the resist buffs, stam regen, and more resto ults. Damage is absolutely higher and this is the first patch I've seen consistent 10K crits on Frags, which hasn't happened in a long time. Also since the pet takes so much less damage from everything, necro can be up 100% of the time and is a way around the very annoying healing ward nerf. The issues I have with sorcs aren't really with what most people think has been overnerfed: shields and damage.

As far as what I don;t like about the sorc, what I think would be far more useful than everyone's quitting, is to be precise about why these are issues.

The boundless Storm skill is nice in light of the recent changes, but 4 seconds on Expedition is absolute crap and the secondary benefit of the skill *in no way compares* to say what templars and wardens get casting their armor buff.
Fury: I *think*, that means I'm not 100% sure, ZOS fixed the cast on corpse thing by reverting to an old version of Fury that does not do damage on a cast. This means we're back to the days when this skill's unresponsiveness was a pain point
Overload is too much of a pain to turn on and off, and it's a hopeless cause to tell whether or not this it is on and off with all the shiny graphics in the first place because the animation is too subtle and looks too much like Crystal frags. I have stopped even trying to use this.
Not sorcerer specific, but the healing ward nerf was IMO not the right thing to do because stamina is really strong right now (well not really stam DKs)
ZOS needs to figure out what to do with Streak because now since Boundless Storm is too short, this skill 100% needs to be reliable and it's not.
I think ZOS made a mistake with the rune Cage and after a year, still hasn't got this skill correct. They should finally take a long look at crystal blast and at least make that a more attractive option.
I don't like sorcerer 1v1 ultimates at all. Negate is fantastic for groups, see Overload above, Atronach is not a burst option. Every class now has a burst ultimate - even templars - it's a huge hole in the sorc kit.
When I PvP on a sroc, my sustain feels right only if I wear two sustain sets whereas on my templar I wear one. This maybe intentional because sorc burst is strong, but I still don;t like feel constrained.

There are certainly other issues, but at least with this ZOS or anyone else can begin to understand not only what I dislike about sorcs, but in relation to how other classes play. You don't need me to make a post to elaborate on these and other issues. You went through the trouble of taking time to make numerous posts here and look up what I said about templars, why not devote that time to communicating to the devs and the community what the specific issues sorcs face? It isn't necessary to appeal to emotion and prophecize doom and gloom

Zathras · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

.... dose anyone know what changes were made to magica sorc? what is this BS? " ... " why would they do this?" " i am done with this @##$% " ....

Par for the course.

People complaining about nerfs without even understanding the changes in the first place and then just quitting.

Im sorry but as you are a Class Representative for somebody to have statue as your self, representing a class that affects all of us im really disappointed in your post.....

They understood the changes after it was explained to them? (they didn't know as not many go on forums) and that is just silly do you seriously think they just seen the change without asking about it and quit?.

They seen the changes that shields were nerfed they were explained and shown where to go to read about it and they were not happy with it as their build was ruined and they could not make it work or didn't have in them to start changing their build again had gold to change it ect there were many reason why they gave up and just left or just left magsorcs and got something else.

You're disappointed because I called a post out for displaying anger fueled by ignorance?

Feedback would be enormously more useful if posts demonstrated the basic mechanical concepts behind what they are giving feedback for. If they did understand the changes, then the post did them a disservice by portraying them otherwise.

Their build being ruined does not in-itself mean changes are bad. It means changes were made and people are judging them solely on the basis of what their previous builds could no longer do, rather than investigating the changes are trying to figure out what a new build could do.

It is absolutely not silly to think people just quit making their minds up before the PTS hits Live. Do a search on the theives Guild PTS and you will see many sorcerer players who put in their signature that ZOS ruin the class, they were quitting, RIP, etc., before they ever even tried it on Live. Joke was on them because sorcerer was really strong for multiple patches afterward. We see people overreact every patch.

The patch has not been out too long and it's not at all obvious that sorcs are quit the game bad as the post is portraying them (without any evidence, of course). Sorc damage is definitely higher and without even adjusting my build at all, my shield was larger and I did not even try to make it so (and arguably more effective as I have always run impen and had higher health + resistance). Also, I have discovered the my twilight, which used to be a hoepless cause keeping alive) is much more surivable and has opened the door to actually playing a reliable healer. In short, so far, there are options out there to explore that did not exist last patch.

This does not mean there isn't room for legitimate criticism that is specific and based on actual evidence or at least objective comparison. Sorc CC is still a poor option, Streak still is unreliable on uneven terrain, Overload is incredibly awkward to use, etc. But we did not get that sort of helpful and useful feedback that would make headway in convincing people who might not agree with the overly simplified sorcs suck-I quit sentiment.

@Joy_Division

TBH, you should recuse yourself from being a class rep. Not because you don't supply objective data, but because of your forum presence. You are combative and rude, and demeaning to players. I've read a few of your posts now, and had you not been a class rep, you would surely have been moderated.

Players don't have to submit data logs to back up their distaste for nerfs. How absurd of you to keep de-validating other people for leaving the game in anger. We pay to be here. This is a service. If nerfs affect my enjoyment, I am perfectly within my right to leave, and leave feedback saying so. How dare you chastise people, like they are lessers, because they didn't leave imperial evidence and objective reasons for them not liking the newest round of changes.

I left before this patch went Live, when it was clear that they weren't listening to the Warden feedback. No, I didn't agree with the changes. No, I don't have to adapt. I pay good money, and have since launch, and it is well within my right to leave as a dissatisfied customer. The joke certainly isn't on me.

And, posts like yours, as a representative, help to reinforce that it was a good decision on my part that I am now investing in one of ZOS' s competitors.

Elsonso · November 2018

Zathras wrote: »

TBH, you should recuse yourself from being a class rep. Not because you don't supply objective data, but because of your forum presence. You are combative and rude, and demeaning to players. I've read a few of your posts now, and had you not been a class rep, you would surely have been moderated.

Uh. I disagree. They need to be analytical, honest, and able to understand the game and the technical aspects of the classes. I don't expect them to be diplomats.

DanteYoda · November 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

.... dose anyone know what changes were made to magica sorc? what is this BS? " ... " why would they do this?" " i am done with this @##$% " ....

Par for the course.

People complaining about nerfs without even understanding the changes in the first place and then just quitting.

Im sorry but as you are a Class Representative for somebody to have statue as your self, representing a class that affects all of us im really disappointed in your post.....

They understood the changes after it was explained to them? (they didn't know as not many go on forums) and that is just silly do you seriously think they just seen the change without asking about it and quit?.

They seen the changes that shields were nerfed they were explained and shown where to go to read about it and they were not happy with it as their build was ruined and they could not make it work or didn't have in them to start changing their build again had gold to change it ect there were many reason why they gave up and just left or just left magsorcs and got something else.

You're disappointed because I called a post out for displaying anger fueled by ignorance?

Feedback would be enormously more useful if posts demonstrated the basic mechanical concepts behind what they are giving feedback for. If they did understand the changes, then the post did them a disservice by portraying them otherwise.

Their build being ruined does not in-itself mean changes are bad. It means changes were made and people are judging them solely on the basis of what their previous builds could no longer do, rather than investigating the changes are trying to figure out what a new build could do.

It is absolutely not silly to think people just quit making their minds up before the PTS hits Live. Do a search on the theives Guild PTS and you will see many sorcerer players who put in their signature that ZOS ruin the class, they were quitting, RIP, etc., before they ever even tried it on Live. Joke was on them because sorcerer was really strong for multiple patches afterward. We see people overreact every patch.

The patch has not been out too long and it's not at all obvious that sorcs are quit the game bad as the post is portraying them (without any evidence, of course). Sorc damage is definitely higher and without even adjusting my build at all, my shield was larger and I did not even try to make it so (and arguably more effective as I have always run impen and had higher health + resistance). Also, I have discovered the my twilight, which used to be a hoepless cause keeping alive) is much more surivable and has opened the door to actually playing a reliable healer. In short, so far, there are options out there to explore that did not exist last patch.

This does not mean there isn't room for legitimate criticism that is specific and based on actual evidence or at least objective comparison. Sorc CC is still a poor option, Streak still is unreliable on uneven terrain, Overload is incredibly awkward to use, etc. But we did not get that sort of helpful and useful feedback that would make headway in convincing people who might not agree with the overly simplified sorcs suck-I quit sentiment.

We quit because the class magwarden ice build was bad before and now is worse, its not that we do not know how our builds work or how the mechanics work..

Its that the class is so pigeon holed into a niche by Zos and had no way out, then they go and destroy (yes destroy) a much needed skill Arctic blast (which in itself was lackluster) but very much used and needed in the ice line..

Now without it no buffs the developers added last patch helped the ice line of warden.. they constantly focus on classes that do not need buffs like nightblades and stamina wardens but totally ignore the other warden magicka skill lines..

I CANNOT PLAY STAMINA BUILDS AT ALL even at 300 ping times they are very unplayable but up to 600 its not an option, and thats not even competitive, because my ping times to the servers are so high i cannot hit the enemies, even in PVE so i am forced to only use Magicka builds.. When you ruin a customers only option to play you ruin their game, so i quit playing..

I would hope the developers at some point focus on Wardens (magicka and ice parts) and fix whats needed, until then i have no interest in fighting Zos servers as a stamina customer..

I have better things to do than deal with poor developer decisions.. I only really come here to see what new things are being thought up.

Honestly the bias in the balance devs is very much real.

lordrichter wrote: »

Zathras wrote: »

TBH, you should recuse yourself from being a class rep. Not because you don't supply objective data, but because of your forum presence. You are combative and rude, and demeaning to players. I've read a few of your posts now, and had you not been a class rep, you would surely have been moderated.

Uh. I disagree. They need to be analytical, honest, and able to understand the game and the technical aspects of the classes. I don't expect them to be diplomats.

They need to be both, they are the intermediaries for the customers, they should act like them.. Now yes they should know their stuff but they should understand the customers issues as well.. If they cannot do that they have no place as a representative of us as a whole the community..

What is the point of a rep if they do not represent what they were put there for..

frostz417 · November 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dude, BDO XBox beta is up. Don't waste your time on the travesty that's Nerfmire.

BDO=trash

Gorilla · November 2018

qbit wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

PVE nerfs often happen as a result of Zos internal stats indicating balance issues.
These were specifically to give PVE healers more of a role.

Do you think the Devs themselves don't want their game to be balanced?

You don’t really believe everything you’re told by people in positions of authority do you? You should analyze the logic. Anything illogical is based in lies/mallace. Truth is always logical. Lies are always illogical.

Do you understand the irony of your post?

pzschrek · November 2018

Joy is choosing to tell you how to impact the conversation instead of letting you wallow in your own breathtaking ignorance, @Zathras.

If you aren’t playing the game anymore, then you are the obvious candidate to recuse yourself from the conversation entirely. I’m surprised this isn’t obvious to you.

arasysb14_ESO · November 2018

I agree with @Zathras

Since 2016's PTS, I can easily say gameplay deteriorated for my class. This has been explained too many times to even reference at this point. Far too many skills, sets and potential are wasted for sorcerers.

We see people overreact every patch.

To even insinuate players only provide angry posts without testing on PTS is wrong. First, testing usually shouldn't even be average players' job, they pay to enjoy the game, and continue their story with the characters they built over time.

But thanks to past PTS experience, some players see there's a lack of communication and friends & family leaving.
Joy Division you may have enough time to write lengthy posts and post videos but that's a luxury most of us don't have. Players mostly play for fun in their limited time.

For Nerfmire, there were over 100+ pages only for sorcerer class (one 65+ pages long and other threads focusing on specific issues and another one asking why they were ignored..):

- yes there were bashing comments
- yes people were angry
- but there were LOTS of constructive feedback, with even videos & screenshots. Cast time was so outrageous, glad it was reversed but it didn't change the fact game suffered with latest changes.. Why was that ignored ? Why some of us who reached out to other representatives hear that they were ignored? I mean really?..

You may suggest your shield is "bigger, and your twilight is surviving a lot better" doesn't change the fact the class is no longer fun to play for most who play the class.

Not fun to play =/= not adaptable

You argue players' feedback is mostly useless, guess what; it doesn't help when you as a class representative is so disconnected from the community you should be representing in the first place.

You may consider things just fine, or adaptable; but with such changes game takes two steps back instead of moving forward with new content.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

<snipped a lot of stuff I don't have any interest in getting into>
I CANNOT PLAY STAMINA BUILDS AT ALL even at 300 ping times they are very unplayable but up to 600 its not an option, and thats not even competitive, because my ping times to the servers are so high i cannot hit the enemies, even in PVE so i am forced to only use Magicka builds.. When you ruin a customers only option to play you ruin their game, so i quit playing..

This is even more true for me. Now, I don't have any use for Ice as a skill line, I don't find it fun, and I'm just running my tankden build in a different direction (and as she and Mori are doing fine at surviving etc. that's all I care about at this point).

But the stam builds. Yeah. If your ping is awful (mine is.... 2000 ms + on a GOOD day) well, you just don't try to do anything on stam toons. Kinda sucks, because I quite like bow on a couple of them, but even instant cast skills/abilities don't fire "instantly" with ping like that.

So yes, I have fun with this game, but it's not optimal at all, considering the sort of playstyles I like.

Lord-Otto · November 2018

frostz417 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dude, BDO XBox beta is up. Don't waste your time on the travesty that's Nerfmire.

BDO=trash

So is Nerfmire. But BDO brings something new for console players to experience.
Also, I disagree.

DanteYoda · November 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

<snipped a lot of stuff I don't have any interest in getting into>
I CANNOT PLAY STAMINA BUILDS AT ALL even at 300 ping times they are very unplayable but up to 600 its not an option, and thats not even competitive, because my ping times to the servers are so high i cannot hit the enemies, even in PVE so i am forced to only use Magicka builds.. When you ruin a customers only option to play you ruin their game, so i quit playing..

This is even more true for me. Now, I don't have any use for Ice as a skill line, I don't find it fun, and I'm just running my tankden build in a different direction (and as she and Mori are doing fine at surviving etc. that's all I care about at this point).

But the stam builds. Yeah. If your ping is awful (mine is.... 2000 ms + on a GOOD day) well, you just don't try to do anything on stam toons. Kinda sucks, because I quite like bow on a couple of them, but even instant cast skills/abilities don't fire "instantly" with ping like that.

So yes, I have fun with this game, but it's not optimal at all, considering the sort of playstyles I like.

When i try to attack enemies all i get is Errors pop up over and over "you cannot hit that" etc.. Yet they are right in front of me in my screen..

I do not receive those errors on a magicka class even at 600 pingtimes..

After nerfmire i decided enough was enough.

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Eh, I get the same sort of lag/delay on any class except pet classes. And that's only because the pets are run server-side. It's easier to mitigate the drop on magicka and pet classes, is all.

Biro123 · November 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Sadly, the Magsorc ambassador isn't very active, and it seems the others are having to step in to cover.

They have always stated that there are no representatives for specific classes. Every representative gathers feedback from every player.

I always remember when the candidates were up for nomination, they were listed by class (with some extra categories for stuff like PVP, dungeons etc)..
I guess the initial idea changed at some point?

HappyLittleTree · November 2018

I don't get it why people are so dependend on shields? I use them too but i don't feel like i was nerfed hard.

Zathras · November 2018

DanteYoda wrote: »

They need to be both, they are the intermediaries for the customers, they should act like them.. Now yes they should know their stuff but they should understand the customers issues as well.. If they cannot do that they have no place as a representative of us as a whole the community..

What is the point of a rep if they do not represent what they were put there for..

In addition, they are an aspect of ZOS's voice. If you carry a forum tag for a position that was given to you by ZOS, then you carry the burden of representation in all aspects. Projecting a demeaning, elitist, and dismissive attitude towards the people that support this game, is simply not an acceptable stance. That there are many posts like this, suggests a permissiveness from the top down that the behavior is condoned.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Please review Joy_Division's forum participation.

Elsonso · November 2018

Zathras wrote: »

In addition, they are an aspect of ZOS's voice. If you carry a forum tag for a position that was given to you by ZOS, then you carry the burden of representation in all aspects. Projecting a demeaning, elitist, and dismissive attitude towards the people that support this game, is simply not an acceptable stance. That there are many posts like this, suggests a permissiveness from the top down that the behavior is condoned.

(Removed that last line from your comment)

Just an observation that you might want to remove that last line of your comment.

DanteYoda · November 2018

Zathras wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

They need to be both, they are the intermediaries for the customers, they should act like them.. Now yes they should know their stuff but they should understand the customers issues as well.. If they cannot do that they have no place as a representative of us as a whole the community..

What is the point of a rep if they do not represent what they were put there for..

In addition, they are an aspect of ZOS's voice. If you carry a forum tag for a position that was given to you by ZOS, then you carry the burden of representation in all aspects. Projecting a demeaning, elitist, and dismissive attitude towards the people that support this game, is simply not an acceptable stance. That there are many posts like this, suggests a permissiveness from the top down that the behavior is condoned.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno Please review Joy_Division's forum participation.

As you say the opinions start top down, while i agree i do not expect much to change unless real high up decide to shuffle staff..

Sylvermynx · November 2018

Um. I don't think calling out one rep in public is a really good idea....

albesca · November 2018

arasysb14_ESO wrote: »

For Nerfmire, there were over 100+ pages only for sorcerer class (one 65+ pages long and other threads focusing on specific issues and another one asking why they were ignored..):

I can speak only for myself, but any post that refers to last update as "Nerfmire" doesn't feel like "constructive feedback" to me, regardless of the content.

- yes there were bashing comments
- yes people were angry
- but there were LOTS of constructive feedback, with even videos & screenshots. Cast time was so outrageous, glad it was reversed but it didn't change the fact game suffered with latest changes.. Why was that ignored ? Why some of us who reached out to other representatives hear that they were ignored? I mean really?..

The problem is that the bashing comments by angry people were the majority, last I checked, and that makes it really hard to analyse and discuss the constructive feedback that's kind of drowned in the noise.

You may suggest your shield is "bigger, and your twilight is surviving a lot better" doesn't change the fact the class is no longer fun to play for most who play the class.

Not fun to play =/= not adaptable

You argue players' feedback is mostly useless, guess what; it doesn't help when you as a class representative is so disconnected from the community you should be representing in the first place.

You may consider things just fine, or adaptable; but with such changes game takes two steps back instead of moving forward with new content.

First things first: I'd like balancing updates to be more frequent and more about gradually moving toward the goal, rather than radical changes once a season.

That said, when those changes hit PTS or go live I'd expect posts with this general structure:

"I'm a [insert class] with a, b and c skills; before the update I could do x, y and z, now it seems I can't do those anymore, how can I go back to my former capabilities?"

The answer could be something like this:

"To do x and y again you should change your gear/skills/passives/buffs to raise this and that stat and maybe change your skills rotation a bit, about z we feel you really shouldn't be able to do that, so tough luck"

Now, you can legitimately think that doing z is essential for your game experience, so you can ask to bring z back, search new ways to do it or leave the game.
It's the whole "OMG ZOS ruined the game", "LOL, the devs wouldn't know balance if it bit them in the arse", "ZOS, fire everyone and hire someone capable" barrage of posts that really serves no purpose except maybe venting frustration for a few vocal forum dwellers, some of which always seems to be on the verge of leaving forever yet are inexplicably still here, gamebreaking, unacceptable update after gamebreaking, unacceptable update.

As an aside, everytime something changes there are three kind of reaction: negative, neutral and positive, with varying intensity.
Unless the changes are truly disastrous most of the reactions sit between moderately negative and moderately positive, with a slight preference for the former, due to breaking playing habits.
Here on the forum we see the strongly to moderately negative reactions and some of the strongly positive (usually in response to the former and dismissed as whiteknighting) and rarely if ever the neutral and moderately positive ones.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

albesca wrote: »

I can speak only for myself, but any post that refers to last update as "Nerfmire" doesn't feel like "constructive feedback" to me, regardless of the content.

The problem is that the bashing comments by angry people were the majority, last I checked, and that makes it really hard to analyse and discuss the constructive feedback that's kind of drowned in the noise.

If you're that superficial that content doesn't matter as long as there is even one moniker in a post, that's on you. But there is a bit more to be expected from official reps, don't you agree? Like reading all those comments and gathering infos despite monikers and rants. That's what they were sold us for after all.

albesca · November 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If you're that superficial that content doesn't matter as long as there is even one moniker in a post, that's on you.

I don't think that content is irrelevant, I just think that some details (monikers, snide remarks, etc.) immediately qualify posts as something different than "constructive feedback". That doesn't mean that I dismiss them, as they may be insightful and I may even agree.
Constructive feedback depends on the writer purpose and should include both what's perceived as wrong, why and how that could be improved; rants usually provide the first, rarely the second and pretty much never the third.

But there is a bit more to be expected from official reps, don't you agree? Like reading all those comments and gathering infos despite monikers and rants. That's what they were sold us for after all.

Yes, I agree with that, but I also think that it's in our best interest not forcing them to wade through tons of rubbish to gather those infos