Not too sure how the thread has went, havent had time to read all of it. From my point of view however, ESO needs at least a small semblance of an Auction house, at least for some of the smaller guilds.

A compromise can be made and i have spoken about it in other similar threads. A roving Bazaar, one that can allow players to post at least 10-20 sales that are totally public. The bazaar will move from zone to zone, perhaps once every two weeks and only during the weekends, to ensure that the Guild traders aren't being put off by this. it'l also create more traffic in the said zone, ensuring that smaller guilds and solo players have a chance to sell what they have.

While joining trading guilds will still be the best choice, at least with this bazaar, there is a chance that players can still do some sales. Its a good time sink, a gold sink and also it provides good opportunity for players to 'soft' enter the market without needing to research extensively for prices.

just my two cents.

Tandor wrote: »

No, it's not just about the interface. A core function in the game shouldn't be entirely locked behind both guild membership and a bidding system. A bidding system, I might add, that should be anathema in a trading system to those who dislike auctions in a trading system !

These all are valid points. But they are not pro auction house. AH is not the only way to address these problems, and more of it, AH implementation introduces other problems.Maybe a few market areas with traders, where players can list their wares for a small fee (the fee gets smaller, the further from entrance the trader is placed). Or one trader in each major city, available for everyone to list their items (of course, each trader has a separate list). It would be more in line with current trader system.

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Making money in this game is incredibly easy for anyone who puts a little bit of time into finding out how. There are enough guides and discussions about this.

The easiest way for anyone who wants to have a permanent trading guild, but the guild you found wants Xk sales a week you can easily enough just buy an something for that price and sell it again. Like buy a perfect roe and sell it again. Then you have to float around 10k to stay in your guild which really isn't much money in this game.

3.5% of your sales is what the guild in the end gets as taxes which is 175 gold if you sell for 5k. Asking for 5k sales is really not unreasonable or greedy on their part.

Having to pay "dues" to join a video game guild is about as unreasonable as it gets if you ask me. So any system that would encourage such a silly practice isn't one I would ever support.

So...join guilds that don't require dues? Not hard to find. I'm currently in 4 guilds. None of them require any dues; you do have to log in at least once a week, that is mandatory. Even that can be changed for sufficient reason, like deployment/illness/vacation away from your pc by telling the guildmaster.

I pick up mats while running around doing quests, mages' daily, and fighter's daily. I grin every time I find a node that someone left "trash" behind in, you know, the crawlers, worms, mundane runes, bast, etc? Yes, I pick that stuff up. From doing the normal daily writs on ONE crafter, having hirelings I bother to collect the deliveries regularly from on ONE crafter, deconning the loot from doing the quests and rewards I found I had quite a bit of mats piled up. So, I decided to sell some stuff on my one no dues primarily trading guild guild store; trader in Auridon. Ended up with 65k gold. Total mandatory dues the guild demanded-- 0 gold.

I don't really see the current system encourages mandatory dues for membership. It depends on the guild, the guildmaster, and the guild members.

None of my guilds require dues either. That's why I recommended that the OP find one of those.

I disagree with you though that the system doesn't encourage guilds to require dues. I believe it does by forcing guilds to bid against other guilds for market locations. If that isn't going to encourage trading guilds to require dues than I don't know what would.

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Making money in this game is incredibly easy for anyone who puts a little bit of time into finding out how. There are enough guides and discussions about this.

The easiest way for anyone who wants to have a permanent trading guild, but the guild you found wants Xk sales a week you can easily enough just buy an something for that price and sell it again. Like buy a perfect roe and sell it again. Then you have to float around 10k to stay in your guild which really isn't much money in this game.

3.5% of your sales is what the guild in the end gets as taxes which is 175 gold if you sell for 5k. Asking for 5k sales is really not unreasonable or greedy on their part.

Having to pay "dues" to join a video game guild is about as unreasonable as it gets if you ask me. So any system that would encourage such a silly practice isn't one I would ever support.

So...join guilds that don't require dues? Not hard to find. I'm currently in 4 guilds. None of them require any dues; you do have to log in at least once a week, that is mandatory. Even that can be changed for sufficient reason, like deployment/illness/vacation away from your pc by telling the guildmaster.

I pick up mats while running around doing quests, mages' daily, and fighter's daily. I grin every time I find a node that someone left "trash" behind in, you know, the crawlers, worms, mundane runes, bast, etc? Yes, I pick that stuff up. From doing the normal daily writs on ONE crafter, having hirelings I bother to collect the deliveries regularly from on ONE crafter, deconning the loot from doing the quests and rewards I found I had quite a bit of mats piled up. So, I decided to sell some stuff on my one no dues primarily trading guild guild store; trader in Auridon. Ended up with 65k gold. Total mandatory dues the guild demanded-- 0 gold.

I don't really see the current system encourages mandatory dues for membership. It depends on the guild, the guildmaster, and the guild members.

None of my guilds require dues either. That's why I recommended that the OP find one of those.

I disagree with you though that the system doesn't encourage guilds to require dues. I believe it does by forcing guilds to bid against other guilds for market locations. If that isn't going to encourage trading guilds to require dues than I don't know what would.

Dues are a thing for some guilds, but not all of them.

So far, all my guilds are still voluntary, though. One guild is really uptight about it, but I think it is still voluntary. I suspect they get rid of enough people with the 2-week inactive rule that they don't have to mandate voluntary raffle purchases. I am in other trading guilds that are much more laid back about the whole thing. I will kick in to help pay for a trader, right up until the point where they decide that my doing so is a condition for being in the guild. Then, I am out of there.

lordrichter wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Making money in this game is incredibly easy for anyone who puts a little bit of time into finding out how. There are enough guides and discussions about this.

The easiest way for anyone who wants to have a permanent trading guild, but the guild you found wants Xk sales a week you can easily enough just buy an something for that price and sell it again. Like buy a perfect roe and sell it again. Then you have to float around 10k to stay in your guild which really isn't much money in this game.

3.5% of your sales is what the guild in the end gets as taxes which is 175 gold if you sell for 5k. Asking for 5k sales is really not unreasonable or greedy on their part.

Having to pay "dues" to join a video game guild is about as unreasonable as it gets if you ask me. So any system that would encourage such a silly practice isn't one I would ever support.

So...join guilds that don't require dues? Not hard to find. I'm currently in 4 guilds. None of them require any dues; you do have to log in at least once a week, that is mandatory. Even that can be changed for sufficient reason, like deployment/illness/vacation away from your pc by telling the guildmaster.

I pick up mats while running around doing quests, mages' daily, and fighter's daily. I grin every time I find a node that someone left "trash" behind in, you know, the crawlers, worms, mundane runes, bast, etc? Yes, I pick that stuff up. From doing the normal daily writs on ONE crafter, having hirelings I bother to collect the deliveries regularly from on ONE crafter, deconning the loot from doing the quests and rewards I found I had quite a bit of mats piled up. So, I decided to sell some stuff on my one no dues primarily trading guild guild store; trader in Auridon. Ended up with 65k gold. Total mandatory dues the guild demanded-- 0 gold.

I don't really see the current system encourages mandatory dues for membership. It depends on the guild, the guildmaster, and the guild members.

None of my guilds require dues either. That's why I recommended that the OP find one of those.

I disagree with you though that the system doesn't encourage guilds to require dues. I believe it does by forcing guilds to bid against other guilds for market locations. If that isn't going to encourage trading guilds to require dues than I don't know what would.

Dues are a thing for some guilds, but not all of them.

So far, all my guilds are still voluntary, though. One guild is really uptight about it, but I think it is still voluntary. I suspect they get rid of enough people with the 2-week inactive rule that they don't have to mandate voluntary raffle purchases. I am in other trading guilds that are much more laid back about the whole thing. I will kick in to help pay for a trader, right up until the point where they decide that my doing so is a condition for being in the guild. Then, I am out of there.

There are a lot of guilds out there that don't require dues. So if that's your point I'm not going to dispute it. You're right about that, and why I was suggesting the OP look into joining one of those.

My point was simply that the guild trader system does encourage at least some guilds to require dues. Because if there was no bidding war to capture popular market locations I doubt those same guilds would have those dues. That's all I was saying.

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

No, it's not just about the interface. A core function in the game shouldn't be entirely locked behind both guild membership and a bidding system. A bidding system, I might add, that should be anathema in a trading system to those who dislike auctions in a trading system !

These all are valid points. But they are not pro auction house. AH is not the only way to address these problems, and more of it, AH implementation introduces other problems.Maybe a few market areas with traders, where players can list their wares for a small fee (the fee gets smaller, the further from entrance the trader is placed). Or one trader in each major city, available for everyone to list their items (of course, each trader has a separate list). It would be more in line with current trader system.

I agree entirely, which is why I made this suggestion earlier in the topic:-

Tandor wrote: »

The answer of course is not to replace the present system with an auction house, but rather to open it up to all players at all levels and equally on all platforms by firstly having a NPC merchant in the main trading locations with whom a small number of items could be listed at high commission rates by those who either aren't in trading guilds or whose guilds haven't been successful that week, and with the commission being shared between the guilds trading in those locations. Secondly, by having a proper search function coupled with the ability either to travel to a trader in order to buy an item or else to receive it in the mail at an additional charge. By including a starter quest involving the NPC merchant on conclusion of which new players would be directed to the guild trader system everyone would be a winner, even console players who are desperately short-changed by the present system through the lack of addons.

An auction house would be better than the present system in my view, but opening up the present system so as to retain the basis of guild traders but in a more open and universally effective way regardless of platform would be even better - and should satisfy everyone's requirements.

Your problem is you're moving low value stuff that doesn't move. Sell gold upgrade mats, rare motif pages, valuable things, and those 20k a week targets can be hit with a single sale.

OK - I did discover last night that the MM addon was recommending massively different prices than TTC was saying. I got an extra copy of Morag Tong Axes motif from a daily in Vrandenfall. MM was recommending I post it for like 100g. The TTC price was 20,000 g. So I've manually put it up at the TTC min price. We will see if it sells.

I don't know how I would do any of this without the addons...

On the point of upgrade mats, motif pages, even raw materials - I'm still at the point where I am collecting most of those things for myself. I just started playing in July 2018 and am currently 260ish CP thanks to the Witches Festival. I want to be a crafter so it is only duplicate recipes that I sell now.

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

idk wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Vandellia wrote: »

To be totally honest here this is all a moot argument its not going to happen and personally i dont think it will happen for a reason none of you have listed if you think about guild banks whats the main issue with them ? i know that money deposited goes missing from time to time it goes into the great bit bucket in the sky and requires intervention . okay now that being said a region wide ah or server wide ah would be a nightmare and would induce massive lag that would more then likely make the game unplayable as currently configured i shudder to think about the lag a ah would cause .

I firmly believe the main reason for the current system is due to technical infrastructure limitations as much as any reasons put forth by players, as well as the poor design eats up a lot of player time, which is very clearly a key feature of ESO .

Just trying to get search results and / or buy something at a single store can lag out - if everything were sold through a common server wide system, the game would probably crash.

And while I'd love to have a single marketplace (mostly when buying as trying to locate items even with PC add-ons and the TTC site is a giant waste of time), they could make what we have much better with just a few basic improvements to the UI.

The biggest improvement would be to add a search function that includes use of text / keywords and searches everything without having to know ever single sub category, that and better / user defined filters.

Which is kind of odd, considering GW2 is two years older and manages to have an auction house that links two continent-separated megaservers together and updates in real time. Makes me wonder what kind of kludgy duct-taped solution the ESO folks are running. I also wonder if having something centralized might use fewer resources than running eleventy-trillion-but-not-yet-enough guild traders' databases simultaneously.

I'd take having a real UI-integrated search as a massive improvement, honestly. Awesome Guild Store gets bogged down constantly and category searches almost never seem to work right. And that's the "good" part of running the game on PC. I'd shoot myself if I had to deal with console players' limitations. You guys have my sympathies!

Devs' vision or not, the system stinks. The more I interact with it, the more frustrated I become. Trying to buy anything is a massive chore that involves exiting the game for TTC, then a prayer as I hop onto my sorc who has all the cities unlocked. Then another as I go from trader to trader, realizing that someone purchased the freshly-posted TTC item just a minute before I loaded in

Like the grind that's getting added into every event, it's one of the things that's beginning to chip away at my will to log in.

Really good speculation. However, it is rather irrelevant what GW2 has. Many that play here choose to not play GW2.

Beyond that, we have what we have here for a trading system. Devs clearly stated they wanted a guild based trading system and they have shown no signs that is it not living up to their expectations. Clearly a great many active players like it as it has clearly created a robust economy.

Like it or not it is not changing anytime soon.

"Robust" is interesting choice of words, considering how the system completely obscures real data from its participants. That's only in ZoS' hands. People might think or feel that it's robust, but that's only an impression based on next-to-no empirical data.

I'm pretty darn sure we're not getting anything GW2 style in this game, which is a big shame. I just find it interesting that an older game has a far more efficient and sophisticated infrastructure. The technology was there when ESO was created to have a decent-running system, and yet ZoS chose this.

I'm also sure that nothing will be changing. However, if the devs do read this thread or any other regarding the trading system, I'm going to register my opinion that it stinks. They can take that opinion or leave it as they choose, which they probably will

That said, I don't particularly care one way or the other that some players like the system. They're free to comment accordingly. That won't change my thoughts one way or the other.

Dont let anyone lie to you about why the system we have is so obnoxiously terrible. They originally intended for trade and sales to be internal in guilds. You would be selling and buying items from your very own guild mates (If this doesnt throw up red flags about how sadly uninformed ZOS is about MMO economies, I dont know what will). The person farther back in the thread talking about how we have 5 guilds so we could create trade guilds is also full of it. The 5 guilds thing predates Guild Traders. The problem with that system was how limited it was and how it bogged down any sort of real movement of ingame money. So PC players put up a big stink about how it wasnt good enough and ZOS solution was to implement Guild Traders so players could sell their items to players outside of their guild. Of course PC players can simply add-on their way around the decentralized nature of that problem.

So you can see how none of this was ever truely thought out and was one bandaid over another. The reason ZOS doesnt want to touch the economy again is because whenever these topics come up. The PC crowd brigade the hell out of the discussion and play it off as just shutting down a dead horse thread.

Ugh. I'm kind of glad I wasn't around for the beginning of the mess. Thanks for confirming my suspicions that the current system was a duct-taped together kludge of complete yuck and failure.

I first gave ESO a shot about a year or two ago and the whole trading system was a part of why I never made it past level 8. I remember hitting Mistral for the first time, having a chat with Raz, then trying to find some $@#@#$ boots. I checked around and couldn't afford anything. Then I found the Guild Trader. Score, thought I, then I spent about 10 minutes poking my way through the virgin interface to finally find some boots I could almost afford. 500 gold, and level 5, but they beat the level 1's I was wearing.

I had a bunch of stuff in my inventory, so I thought, "Hey, I've got this auction house thing figured out! I'll sell my old crap!"

Except I couldn't

I googled how to sell things. Then I found out I had to join a guild (!) to sell anything. I thought, "You've got to be kidding me!" I figured it really was a joke, considering the joys I'd had thinking the GTN interface in SWTOR was broken. Aside: took me to level 40 on my first toon there to figure out you could only find things by typing something in the search field *whaps self upside the head* So I poked around through the interface at the guild trader again because I couldn't believe it. There was absolutely no way that you couldn't sell things-- there couldn't be.

I think I lasted one more day in the game after that.

Every other MMO I've played has featured some kind of auction house. SWL's is serviceable, but not great. Yet you can find things. And sell them. If you're a patron, you can drag the items right into your inventory from the interface. If you're not, you have to go to a trader in Agartha, but it's still fairly instantaneous. GW2's auction house lags a bit from time to time and errors occasionally, but it works, you're price-protected vs. vendor pricing and you can find anything via the exceptional filters and search. SWTOR's GTN is primitive and only features a few terminals here and there, but you can sell things, buy things, and items you purchase are available instantly by mail. Heck, even no-humans-online Otherland had an auction house setup-- with zero items for sale.

I've used most of the PC add-ons, and while they help, they're not exactly good. Awesome Guild Store stalls out, or freezes your interface occasionally. It's still hard to find things if you don't know what category they're in. Searches take forever, especially if you dare to hit the price arrow. Master Merchant bogs you down the second you log in on any character as it spools and filters your guild sales data. You can't configure it to skip various alerts-- at least so far as I've been able to figure. I uninstalled that one after a week, and just use TTC's website to guess at pricing if I feel like it. Otherwise I slap a lowish price on things and shrug. TTC requires you to run an .exe file. Same with that Nirn auction house thing. No way I'm risking that.

I'll take any of the auction houses I've experienced anywhere else over this current mess. But I've learned there will always be someone who will defend anything, or like just about anything.

Editing: I really do feel bad for console players. While the system on PC is frustrating and annoying even with add-ons, it's virtually unusable without them. You have my condolences.

Jeremy wrote: »

There are a lot of guilds out there that don't require dues. So if that's your point I'm not going to dispute it. You're right about that, and why I was suggesting the OP look into joining one of those.

My point was simply that the guild trader system does encourage at least some guilds to require dues. Because if there was no bidding war to capture popular market locations I doubt those same guilds would have those dues. That's all I was saying.

Mainly, I was agreeing with you, but saying that it was not every guild that was driven by it.

Jameliel wrote: »

All of the genius economic professors who say the guild trader system is better, would 100% be using a central auction house if there was one.

Of course we'd be using it if it were the only trading system. But we don't have an auction house so that'a that's a speculative absolute.

Using the resources you do have is a whole lot more productive than Internet tantrums. I'm not in love with the guild kiosks, but I've learned the system, play to the system's strengths, and make it work for me. Just because an auction house would be a lower effort, more passively rewarding system does not make it a better system. Just a lower effort, more passively rewarding one.

This again?

Well, I don't think a global auction house would be better than the system we have now...

..because the system we have now is brillant, probably the best I ever saw in a MMO.

_It's great for immersion
_It makes it extremely hard for a guild to corner a market and make prices rise artificially
_It gives the crafty and patient player a way to make a little bit of gold

A global auction house system is dumb as a brick, and would lead rich guilds to buy rare items and sell them thrices the price, I've seen it before.

idk wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

idk wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

Vandellia wrote: »

To be totally honest here this is all a moot argument its not going to happen and personally i dont think it will happen for a reason none of you have listed if you think about guild banks whats the main issue with them ? i know that money deposited goes missing from time to time it goes into the great bit bucket in the sky and requires intervention . okay now that being said a region wide ah or server wide ah would be a nightmare and would induce massive lag that would more then likely make the game unplayable as currently configured i shudder to think about the lag a ah would cause .

I firmly believe the main reason for the current system is due to technical infrastructure limitations as much as any reasons put forth by players, as well as the poor design eats up a lot of player time, which is very clearly a key feature of ESO .

Just trying to get search results and / or buy something at a single store can lag out - if everything were sold through a common server wide system, the game would probably crash.

And while I'd love to have a single marketplace (mostly when buying as trying to locate items even with PC add-ons and the TTC site is a giant waste of time), they could make what we have much better with just a few basic improvements to the UI.

The biggest improvement would be to add a search function that includes use of text / keywords and searches everything without having to know ever single sub category, that and better / user defined filters.

Which is kind of odd, considering GW2 is two years older and manages to have an auction house that links two continent-separated megaservers together and updates in real time. Makes me wonder what kind of kludgy duct-taped solution the ESO folks are running. I also wonder if having something centralized might use fewer resources than running eleventy-trillion-but-not-yet-enough guild traders' databases simultaneously.

I'd take having a real UI-integrated search as a massive improvement, honestly. Awesome Guild Store gets bogged down constantly and category searches almost never seem to work right. And that's the "good" part of running the game on PC. I'd shoot myself if I had to deal with console players' limitations. You guys have my sympathies!

Devs' vision or not, the system stinks. The more I interact with it, the more frustrated I become. Trying to buy anything is a massive chore that involves exiting the game for TTC, then a prayer as I hop onto my sorc who has all the cities unlocked. Then another as I go from trader to trader, realizing that someone purchased the freshly-posted TTC item just a minute before I loaded in

Like the grind that's getting added into every event, it's one of the things that's beginning to chip away at my will to log in.

Really good speculation. However, it is rather irrelevant what GW2 has. Many that play here choose to not play GW2.

Beyond that, we have what we have here for a trading system. Devs clearly stated they wanted a guild based trading system and they have shown no signs that is it not living up to their expectations. Clearly a great many active players like it as it has clearly created a robust economy.

Like it or not it is not changing anytime soon.

"Robust" is interesting choice of words, considering how the system completely obscures real data from its participants. That's only in ZoS' hands. People might think or feel that it's robust, but that's only an impression based on next-to-no empirical data.

I'm pretty darn sure we're not getting anything GW2 style in this game, which is a big shame. I just find it interesting that an older game has a far more efficient and sophisticated infrastructure. The technology was there when ESO was created to have a decent-running system, and yet ZoS chose this.

I'm also sure that nothing will be changing. However, if the devs do read this thread or any other regarding the trading system, I'm going to register my opinion that it stinks. They can take that opinion or leave it as they choose, which they probably will

That said, I don't particularly care one way or the other that some players like the system. They're free to comment accordingly. That won't change my thoughts one way or the other.

First of all, you really need to read what you quote before you reply. You would understand your comment about GW2 is irrelevant. Being you are here in these forums I am pretty darn sure GW2 is not the game you prefer to play. If I have this wrong them I suggest you go enjoy that game.

Regardless, if you want to stay in ESO I suggest you get used to how the economy is here because it is not going to change because Zos is clearly pleased with the guild traders and continues to add to it, not take away.

I read exactly what you said. And I disagree with it. Vehemently. Theoretical auction house design is exactly what I was talking about from the get-go. Most games of an older vintage than ESO have vastly superior systems to the horrible one ZoS has implemented, including GW2, which has the best designed system I've encountered to date. So it's 100% relevant to what I've been talking about.

You're just telling me to suck it up and shut up because you and some unnamed sector of the ESO population, along with the devs, love it to bits. That has absolutely zero to do with what I was saying-- so if there's anyone speaking irrelevancy, it's not me.

You, however, are welcome to your opinion. As am I.

So long as I'm playing and I want to make any gold in the game, I do have to suck it up. But these forums are places to state your objections, and the guild trader system is the biggest objection I have to the game at this point. So, objection stated.

Simple.

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

I agree, the majority of mmo's use the current Auction house system and Eso wanted to try something different which is really terrible imo but different.

What they really just need to do is have a true in game filter and not rely on addons to do the work for itself that it should have in the first place. I wouldn't mind the current system with a true in game filter tbh.

Even then there are still far too many guild traders spread out, should be just one spot in each zone where you can look at it from multiple spots but it is still just one where people can still put bids in for spots.