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ONE TAMRIEL 2.0!
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NupidStoob✭✭✭✭✭Ydrisselle wrote: »NupidStoob wrote: »Delve and quest bosses have how much hp? 100k 200k? In a game where you can do 60k+ dps over minute long fights it's quite ridiculous. Gimping your build is only addressing the symptoms and surely not a proper solution.
Maybe you can do 60k+ dps, but most of the players can't.
Your argument hinges on the notion that the only way for ZoS to address this would be by universally making it harder and as a consequence screw over the players who can't. There have been plenty suggestions in this thread to exactly avoid this.
While they are on it they can also address scaling in relations to groups. While not everyone can reach 60k DPS, 6 people with 10k DPS are no different. Questing and doing delves in groups faces the same issues.
P.S. Even for a single person with only 10k dps these fights are boring as they are over in a flash.2 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fine.. if you all peeps so hardcore with this game want all things HM vet mode, then go for it; have a switch you can turn from normal to that in the option menu. I'm sure there are peeps who thinks even vet HM is easy. However, it is not so readily that easy for a lot of others. Also, there is nothing wrong with character progression as you peeps otherwise call it power creeping. I don't even know how you can call it power creeping when toons are being nerfed in every single damn patch and DLC. Give me an ffing break!0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The game is not too easy for me. It's right where it is fun for me, I can solo lots of stuff, because I worked hard to figure out my worn sets and to get the maximum Champion Points. I think I earned the ability to now be a strong dps, so why shouldn't I be able to?
exactly my thoughts as well.0 -
Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
Good answer !!
If you make it more difficult, people will complain its too hard. No good answer here except the above !Edited by Pops_ND_Irish on November 8, 2018 2:41PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »
It's unanimous that overland content is too easy.
I stopped reading at that point. It's a false premise and no individual player should reckon to speak for anyone but him/herself.
THIS.
its absolutely not unanimous. nor is desire for "more challenge"
the whole point in getting more powerful for me at least is, well.. getting more powerful. which means the content difficulty becomes EASIER, not stays the same. people already complain how it doesn't feel like they are making progress within the game becasue of scaling.
now... I do think that adding optional difficulty selector to instanced content like delves/public dungeons/personal story quests is a good idea. why? becasue it leaves overland alone and because it doesn't negatively impact anyone who is not part of the "game is too easy" crowd, while still giving challenge seekers some extra challenge.
also, what "hardcore" players don't realize is that its not "game is too easy" that kills MMOS. its "game is too hard". I've been playing video games for a few decades now. and guess what? easy difficulty was an option from the beginning. the very earliest games - had that option and they had it for a reason. MMO's were incredibly niche market until WoW came along and offered easier, more accessible, more solo friendly game time. this is how WoW became the unstoppable juggernaut. not becasue it was objectively better than other options available at the time, oh no. its launch were a horrible mess, it was lacking features, there were a LOT of problems with that game. but it was the very first accessible MMO.
the reality is nothing has changed. graphics and stories may have gotten more advanced, but that the bulk of players is looking for relaxing good time rather then frustration? is the same as ever.Edited by Linaleah on November 8, 2018 2:55PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
themaddaedra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't have the power nor the will to read all the comments but i just can't believe there are players who find overland hard. It's just unbelievable. Unless you are saying i can't solo a worldboss at level 3. You know, they are not meant to be soloed at level 3.
It's all braindead easy.PC|EU0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭themaddaedra wrote: »Don't have the power nor the will to read all the comments but i just can't believe there are players who find overland hard. It's just unbelievable. Unless you are saying i can't solo a worldboss at level 3. You know, they are not meant to be soloed at level 3.
It's all braindead easy.
It can be hard for new players, or for those who are playing with conditions that makes it hard. If you want to make it harder, you have to do something with yourself and your characters - the solution can't be that it should be harder for everybody since there are players who likes the current difficulty.NupidStoob wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »NupidStoob wrote: »Delve and quest bosses have how much hp? 100k 200k? In a game where you can do 60k+ dps over minute long fights it's quite ridiculous. Gimping your build is only addressing the symptoms and surely not a proper solution.
Maybe you can do 60k+ dps, but most of the players can't.
Your argument hinges on the notion that the only way for ZoS to address this would be by universally making it harder and as a consequence screw over the players who can't. There have been plenty suggestions in this thread to exactly avoid this.
While they are on it they can also address scaling in relations to groups. While not everyone can reach 60k DPS, 6 people with 10k DPS are no different. Questing and doing delves in groups faces the same issues.
P.S. Even for a single person with only 10k dps these fights are boring as they are over in a flash.
I don't find them boring and I'm one of those people with 10k dps (in fact I don't know my exact dps, I simply don't care...). The difficulty is right where it should be. If I want to do something harder but still accomplishable, I go to Craglorn, Orsinium, Vvardenfell or Summerset.Edited by Ydrisselle on November 8, 2018 6:59PM0 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
Good answer !!
If you make it more difficult, people will complain its too hard. No good answer here except the above !
It's not even an answer, it's more like a " give me some awesome here" comment, those who want to increase artificially the difficulty perfectly know how they can do it, and they don't need anyone to remind them how( play naked ect ...)
What the OP propose is different, but you can not understand unless you enjoy hard content.
Why would people complain if they can choose the difficulty tier for questing/public dungeon/overland like current dungeons ? ( Normal/vet)
Edited by Apherius on November 8, 2018 6:05PM2 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
Good answer !!
If you make it more difficult, people will complain its too hard. No good answer here except the above !
It's not even an answer, it's more like a " give me some awesome here" comment, those who want to increase artificially the difficulty perfectly know how they can do it, and they don't need anyone to remind them how( play naked ect ...)
What the OP propose is different, but you can not understand unless you enjoy hard content.
Why would people complain if they can choose the difficulty tier for questing/public dungeon/overland like current dungeons ? ( Normal/vet)
I didn't see any complaining about that idea, only about increasing the difficulty of overland monsters.1 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭
it doesn't mean we need another DLC with casual questing. Stop thinking only about casuals, they already have TON of casual content in 15 big alliance zones, 4 big DLC, and 2 very big chapters.Ydrisselle wrote: »It can be hard for new players
Do you realy think they need EVEN MORE casual content? I don't.1 -
eso_nya✭✭✭✭✭
✭imo the proble is not cp or gear.
the problem is the "knowledge gap". more visible symptom is the average dd hitting somewhere between 500 and 70k dps. the average tank having between 15% and 98% dmg mitigation and healers pulling something between oom and 50k hps.
the gap between getting shred by a skeever and soloing veteran dungeons is just to damn big for any reasonable difficulty scaling attempt.
eso is a bit like an exploration game in that aspect. it doesnt teach u sht.
the tutorials r not good. copy-pasting the "meta" doesnt teach u why u should or shouldnt use sth. there is way to many linked stats and modifiers that randomly act additive or multiplicative. to much minibuffs. to many econiches and situationally "meta" things.
that makes it incredible hard with a superslow learning curve for new players.1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭DemonDruaga wrote: »Like every max cp player is on the same skill level.
Changes like that will only scare away most people.
CP =/ Skill, it is just a time played indicator.
If they want to do more challenging stuff, they need to create a third difficulty thier for the hardcore pve players. If it is worth it for such a small percentage.
Theres plenty of people with 800+ CP that struggle to do the boss achievement in open dungeons on their own.
No third difficulty. This is ESO, not WoW. I hated "third difficulty" there. That is, endgame (difficulty) content is fine.
BTW, "Veteran Hardmode" is already the third difficulty.joaaocaampos wrote: »
It's unanimous that overland content is too easy.
I stopped reading at that point. It's a false premise and no individual player should reckon to speak for anyone but him/herself.
THIS.
its absolutely not unanimous. nor is desire for "more challenge"
the whole point in getting more powerful for me at least is, well.. getting more powerful. which means the content difficulty becomes EASIER, not stays the same. people already complain how it doesn't feel like they are making progress within the game becasue of scaling.
now... I do think that adding optional difficulty selector to instanced content like delves/public dungeons/personal story quests is a good idea. why? becasue it leaves overland alone and because it doesn't negatively impact anyone who is not part of the "game is too easy" crowd, while still giving challenge seekers some extra challenge.
also, what "hardcore" players don't realize is that its not "game is too easy" that kills MMOS. its "game is too hard". I've been playing video games for a few decades now. and guess what? easy difficulty was an option from the beginning. the very earliest games - had that option and they had it for a reason. MMO's were incredibly niche market until WoW came along and offered easier, more accessible, more solo friendly game time. this is how WoW became the unstoppable juggernaut. not becasue it was objectively better than other options available at the time, oh no. its launch were a horrible mess, it was lacking features, there were a LOT of problems with that game. but it was the very first accessible MMO.
the reality is nothing has changed. graphics and stories may have gotten more advanced, but that the bulk of players is looking for relaxing good time rather then frustration? is the same as ever.
Your arguments are valid!
Maybe I was wrong when I said I was unanimous. But if you read the first "spoiler", there is a text from Gina and Devs.themaddaedra wrote: »Don't have the power nor the will to read all the comments but i just can't believe there are players who find overland hard. It's just unbelievable. Unless you are saying i can't solo a worldboss at level 3. You know, they are not meant to be soloed at level 3.
It's all braindead easy.
Believe me, this has been said many times! People shouldn't even use "World Boss" as an argument.Ydrisselle wrote: »I don't find them boring and I'm one of those people with 10k dps (in fact I don't know my exact dps, I simply don't care...). The difficulty is right qhere it should be. If I want to do something harder but still accomplishable, I go to Craglorn, Orsinium, Vvardenfell or Summerset.
Craglorn is the ONLY challenging overland content!0 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭
it doesn't mean we need another DLC with casual questing. Stop thinking only about casuals, they already have TON of casual content in 15 big alliance zones, 4 big DLC, and 2 very big chapters.Ydrisselle wrote: »It can be hard for new players
Do you realy think they need EVEN MORE casual content? I don't.
Alienating casual players will cause them leaving ESO, which means less players in general, less ESO+ subs and less income for ZOS. Do you think they want to kill the game now? ESO needs harder content, but not in overland. More trials, harder dungeons without one-shot mechanics, and more challenging world bosses - that would be good for the hardcore players.joaaocaampos wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »I don't find them boring and I'm one of those people with 10k dps (in fact I don't know my exact dps, I simply don't care...). The difficulty is right where it should be. If I want to do something harder but still accomplishable, I go to Craglorn, Orsinium, Vvardenfell or Summerset.
Craglorn is the ONLY challenging overland content!
I have found the bosses of public dungeons in Orsinium/Vvardenfell/Summerset challenging enough.
0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ohhh boy Ohh boy
I can't wait for them to buff overland and higher end player post one video than go back to sitting in "X" town waiting for either
1. Raid to start
2. LFG to pop1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭I edited the original text and created three different Concepts.
- CP for all Overland Monsters and Bosses
- Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons
- Public Dungeons as Quest Hubs
Edited by joaaocaampos on November 8, 2018 7:17PM0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »snip
While I agree that Overland enemies are quite easy, I believe they have to be.
Using an example of 3 levels of gamers take this into consideration.
Beginner Players - Overland will be quite difficult to them as they aren't likely to have looked up builds and optimization
Intermediate Players - Overland might not be difficult, but there is still a challenge to be had with some of the World Bosses and Public Dungeons.
Expert Players - Overland is a joke to them, as well as it should be. These are the End Game players. The only challenge they will see is from Veteran Content.
With those 3 categories in mind, what sort of difficulty do you set Overland to? It is touchy and a struggle that developers in just about any MMO face.
I don't think deciding these balances is that much of a struggle for developers, as the right answers are actually pretty obvious.
The struggle is doing the obviously-right thing while also accounting for the fact that many players are selfish and think everything should be aimed at them. That includes characters in all three categories. Unfortunately, the Expert players also tend to be the most loyal, most long-term customers. There's some serious no-win in that situation.
But hey, if you could find a magic solution to make people realize that everyone else matters just as much as they do, you could solve way more problems than just game design.
EDIT: And now for my own (probably also selfish) perspective: Too much in the game already takes too long. Questing, exploring, story content is all dragged out by an excessive number of fights and too-high mob density. My time is extremely valuable to me, and I want to get more goals accomplished in the limited time I have to play. Too many mobs, too many fights makes this take too much time as it is. I sure as hell don't want each of those fights taking twice as long.
If I'm interested in a good fight, I'll go do harder content. That's what it's for. If i'm interested in quest and story, I'll go do overland. That's what it's for.Edited by MasterSpatula on November 8, 2018 7:32PM"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭
1. The game is still easy without gear and cpDaedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
2. Doing so will remove the fun of progressing and improving your character
Considering I semi regularly forget to equip gear in non dlcvet dungeons,and don't even notice till the end.yeah.0 -
themaddaedra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ydrisselle wrote: »themaddaedra wrote: »Don't have the power nor the will to read all the comments but i just can't believe there are players who find overland hard. It's just unbelievable. Unless you are saying i can't solo a worldboss at level 3. You know, they are not meant to be soloed at level 3.
It's all braindead easy.
It can be hard for new players, or for those who are playing with conditions that makes it hard. If you want to make it harder, you have to do something with yourself and your characters - the solution can't be that it should be harder for everybody since there are players who likes the current difficulty.
I legit didn't say anything about making it harder/easier whatever since i honestly couldn't care less how ZoS handles this. It's all walkthrough for me and i believe even ZoS can't make it more boring.
I said it's kinda unbelievable when people find stuff hard, because no matter what your level is, you scale. And as long as you know how to push buttons overland just can't be hard. We couldn't even scale when i started playing (release) and even then it was just easy. Worst case you'd end up reading/watching one of endless beginner guides and that's all it takes.Edited by themaddaedra on November 8, 2018 7:26PMPC|EU1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭
^themaddaedra wrote: »no matter what your level is, you scale.
THIS. That says it all. And like I said, it's absurd to use "World Boss" as an argument.
0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »DemonDruaga wrote: »Like every max cp player is on the same skill level.
Changes like that will only scare away most people.
CP =/ Skill, it is just a time played indicator.
If they want to do more challenging stuff, they need to create a third difficulty thier for the hardcore pve players. If it is worth it for such a small percentage.
Theres plenty of people with 800+ CP that struggle to do the boss achievement in open dungeons on their own.
No third difficulty. This is ESO, not WoW. I hated "third difficulty" there. That is, endgame (difficulty) content is fine.
BTW, "Veteran Hardmode" is already the third difficulty.joaaocaampos wrote: »
It's unanimous that overland content is too easy.
I stopped reading at that point. It's a false premise and no individual player should reckon to speak for anyone but him/herself.
THIS.
its absolutely not unanimous. nor is desire for "more challenge"
the whole point in getting more powerful for me at least is, well.. getting more powerful. which means the content difficulty becomes EASIER, not stays the same. people already complain how it doesn't feel like they are making progress within the game becasue of scaling.
now... I do think that adding optional difficulty selector to instanced content like delves/public dungeons/personal story quests is a good idea. why? becasue it leaves overland alone and because it doesn't negatively impact anyone who is not part of the "game is too easy" crowd, while still giving challenge seekers some extra challenge.
also, what "hardcore" players don't realize is that its not "game is too easy" that kills MMOS. its "game is too hard". I've been playing video games for a few decades now. and guess what? easy difficulty was an option from the beginning. the very earliest games - had that option and they had it for a reason. MMO's were incredibly niche market until WoW came along and offered easier, more accessible, more solo friendly game time. this is how WoW became the unstoppable juggernaut. not becasue it was objectively better than other options available at the time, oh no. its launch were a horrible mess, it was lacking features, there were a LOT of problems with that game. but it was the very first accessible MMO.
the reality is nothing has changed. graphics and stories may have gotten more advanced, but that the bulk of players is looking for relaxing good time rather then frustration? is the same as ever.
Your arguments are valid!
Maybe I was wrong when I said I was unanimous. But if you read the first "spoiler", there is a text from Gina and Devs.themaddaedra wrote: »Don't have the power nor the will to read all the comments but i just can't believe there are players who find overland hard. It's just unbelievable. Unless you are saying i can't solo a worldboss at level 3. You know, they are not meant to be soloed at level 3.
It's all braindead easy.
Believe me, this has been said many times! People shouldn't even use "World Boss" as an argument.Ydrisselle wrote: »I don't find them boring and I'm one of those people with 10k dps (in fact I don't know my exact dps, I simply don't care...). The difficulty is right qhere it should be. If I want to do something harder but still accomplishable, I go to Craglorn, Orsinium, Vvardenfell or Summerset.
Craglorn is the ONLY challenging overland content!
I've seen that quote from Gina. however, I STILL disagree that overall difficulty should be increased. why? because and this is a personal example entirely, but I originally actualy preordered this game. I was in Beta and early acess. and I left before my free month with purchase was over because "gasp" the game was too hard for me. but CP! you say. new player doesn't have CP. and veteran player who is not god's gift to video games - relies on CP to make content actualy doable for them.
and no, before you go there, i'm NOT talking about world bosses. I'm talking about regular content. regular overland. personal quests. mage and fighter guild storylines. those. yes there are a LOT of players for whom these things are actualy challenging the way that they are scaled right now. STILL.
maybe some of the power creep can be addressed and possibly should be. I personaly LOVE how the game feels for me at max allotable CP, and no I still cannot solo world bosses and only the earliest group dungeons on normal. but I also understand that this power creep is largely responsible for my and many others having such a bad time with DLC dungeons, becasue DLC dungeons are designed for veteran players who are skilled and are closer to the top of that power creep.
so yes. it should be addressed. but how? IMO not by making overland harder. but by no longer throwing CP at players with every quarterly update. by recalculating just how much power you GET from CP. not changing overland. changing champion system.
Edited by Linaleah on November 8, 2018 8:23PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
Cardhwion✭✭✭Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
Wow nice idea, maybe I could spam equilibrium too and spam light attack.
I'm one of those who want the game to challenge me without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want the try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll I have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
I don't want to play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the content if I had all these toll ... even if i complete it naked I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.
The base game difficulty should be increased by 15%, then add more difficulty tier ( normal/medium/veteran/undaunted) for overland, dungeon, public dungeon, everything.
Well and there are other players who do not appreciate someone wanting the game nerfed for everybody just because he feels bored. You can make it harder for yourself, if you feel it is too easy. But you certainly should not ask to make it harder for others."Why did I follow him...? I don't know. Why do things happen as they do in dreams? All I know is that, when he beckoned... I had to follow him. From that moment, we traveled together, East. Always... into the East."0 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭I've seen that quote from Gina. however, I STILL disagree that overall difficulty should be increased. why? because and this is a personal example entirely, but I originally actualy preordered this game. I was in Beta and early acess. and I left before my free month with purchase was over because "gasp" the game was too hard for me. but CP! you say. new player doesn't have CP. and veteran player who is not god's gift to video games - relies on CP to make content actualy doable for them.
and no, before you go there, i'm NOT talking about world bosses. I'm talking about regular content. regular overland. personal quests. mage and fighter guild storylines. those. yes there are a LOT of players for whom these things are actualy challenging the way that they are scaled right now. STILL.
maybe some of the power creep can be addressed and possibly should be. I personaly LOVE how the game feels for me at max allotable CP, and no I still cannot solo world bosses and only the earliest group dungeons on normal. but I also understand that this power creep is largely responsible for my and many others having such a bad time with DLC dungeons, becasue DLC dungeons are designed for veteran players who are skilled and are closer to the top of that power creep.
so yes. it should be addressed. but how? IMO not by making overland harder. but by no longer throwing CP at players with every quarterly update. by recalculating just how much power you GET from CP. not changing overland. changing champion system.
@Linaleah If you read Concept 1 again, you'll see that I don't want to hit new players. If you read all my comments on the answers, you'll see that I thought of a counterpoint when I was writing this discussion. In the end, I deleted what I wrote and wrote just this:
"So... What about new players who don't have CP yet? Or those who have low CP? Well, I know monsters will be at least 50% more powerful, right? No matter what, tests will be needed. PTS! In my opinion, ESO should be a bit more challenging, even for new players! If monsters become too powerful for new players, ZOS can always fix a few things."
Do you see this highlighted quote? There was a huge original text there. Like I said, I deleted it. Maybe I can edit the discussion and present the counterpoint.
In short, chars lvl 3-49 will not be impacted by this change. For them, the monsters will have the same current power.
But this would be an initial counterpoint.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »I've seen that quote from Gina. however, I STILL disagree that overall difficulty should be increased. why? because and this is a personal example entirely, but I originally actualy preordered this game. I was in Beta and early acess. and I left before my free month with purchase was over because "gasp" the game was too hard for me. but CP! you say. new player doesn't have CP. and veteran player who is not god's gift to video games - relies on CP to make content actualy doable for them.
and no, before you go there, i'm NOT talking about world bosses. I'm talking about regular content. regular overland. personal quests. mage and fighter guild storylines. those. yes there are a LOT of players for whom these things are actualy challenging the way that they are scaled right now. STILL.
maybe some of the power creep can be addressed and possibly should be. I personaly LOVE how the game feels for me at max allotable CP, and no I still cannot solo world bosses and only the earliest group dungeons on normal. but I also understand that this power creep is largely responsible for my and many others having such a bad time with DLC dungeons, becasue DLC dungeons are designed for veteran players who are skilled and are closer to the top of that power creep.
so yes. it should be addressed. but how? IMO not by making overland harder. but by no longer throwing CP at players with every quarterly update. by recalculating just how much power you GET from CP. not changing overland. changing champion system.
@Linaleah If you read Concept 1 again, you'll see that I don't want to hit new players. If you read all my comments on the answers, you'll see that I thought of a counterpoint when I was writing this discussion. In the end, I deleted what I wrote and wrote just this:
"So... What about new players who don't have CP yet? Or those who have low CP? Well, I know monsters will be at least 50% more powerful, right? No matter what, tests will be needed. PTS! In my opinion, ESO should be a bit more challenging, even for new players! If monsters become too powerful for new players, ZOS can always fix a few things."
Do you see this highlighted quote? There was a huge original text there. Like I said, I deleted it. Maybe I can edit the discussion and present the counterpoint.
In short, chars lvl 3-49 will not be impacted by this change. For them, the monsters will have the same current power.
But this would be an initial counterpoint.
what about lvl 50ties. what about players who may be high CP becasue they have been playing for a while, but they are nowhere near the top range of the possible power creep abilitywise? you know, people who still do about 10k dps when they are actualy trying. people who cannot weave. most players you meet in your random pugs?
people WILL be negatively affected if the world is scaled up in difficulty. there is a reason why it was scaled down. and down. and down again in a first place.
and you know what happens when you make the game too difficult before you make it easier? people leave and do not come back. oh some do. but more people leave and don't come back then those who come back and give it another chance.
the irony about this whole conversation is even as we are discussing how game is too easy... there are multiple threads complaining about balancing nerfs.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
joaaocaampos✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »I've seen that quote from Gina. however, I STILL disagree that overall difficulty should be increased. why? because and this is a personal example entirely, but I originally actualy preordered this game. I was in Beta and early acess. and I left before my free month with purchase was over because "gasp" the game was too hard for me. but CP! you say. new player doesn't have CP. and veteran player who is not god's gift to video games - relies on CP to make content actualy doable for them.
and no, before you go there, i'm NOT talking about world bosses. I'm talking about regular content. regular overland. personal quests. mage and fighter guild storylines. those. yes there are a LOT of players for whom these things are actualy challenging the way that they are scaled right now. STILL.
maybe some of the power creep can be addressed and possibly should be. I personaly LOVE how the game feels for me at max allotable CP, and no I still cannot solo world bosses and only the earliest group dungeons on normal. but I also understand that this power creep is largely responsible for my and many others having such a bad time with DLC dungeons, becasue DLC dungeons are designed for veteran players who are skilled and are closer to the top of that power creep.
so yes. it should be addressed. but how? IMO not by making overland harder. but by no longer throwing CP at players with every quarterly update. by recalculating just how much power you GET from CP. not changing overland. changing champion system.
@Linaleah If you read Concept 1 again, you'll see that I don't want to hit new players. If you read all my comments on the answers, you'll see that I thought of a counterpoint when I was writing this discussion. In the end, I deleted what I wrote and wrote just this:
"So... What about new players who don't have CP yet? Or those who have low CP? Well, I know monsters will be at least 50% more powerful, right? No matter what, tests will be needed. PTS! In my opinion, ESO should be a bit more challenging, even for new players! If monsters become too powerful for new players, ZOS can always fix a few things."
Do you see this highlighted quote? There was a huge original text there. Like I said, I deleted it. Maybe I can edit the discussion and present the counterpoint.
In short, chars lvl 3-49 will not be impacted by this change. For them, the monsters will have the same current power.
But this would be an initial counterpoint.
what about lvl 50ties. what about players who may be high CP becasue they have been playing for a while, but they are nowhere near the top range of the possible power creep abilitywise? you know, people who still do about 10k dps when they are actualy trying. people who cannot weave. most players you meet in your random pugs?
people WILL be negatively affected if the world is scaled up in difficulty. there is a reason why it was scaled down. and down. and down again in a first place.
and you know what happens when you make the game too difficult before you make it easier? people leave and do not come back. oh some do. but more people leave and don't come back then those who come back and give it another chance.
the irony about this whole conversation is even as we are discussing how game is too easy... there are multiple threads complaining about balancing nerfs.
@Linaleah Perhaps the counterpoint can be extended to CP 160. Nothing more.
BTW, "CP for all Overland Monsters and Bosses" is just a concept. I introduced three. I'll be happy if the other two were implemented.- CP for all Overland Monsters and Bosses
- Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons
- Public Dungeons as Quest Hubs
Public Dungeons as Quest Hubs would be the best way to introduce "Veteran Quest Hubs". In addition to the traditional 12+ (Main/Side) Quest Hubs, we would have 6 Public Dungeons per Chapter (and 2 Public Dungeons per Zone DLC). And each of them would have a unique (Normal/Veteran) questline. After the questline ends, a daily quest is unlocked. And this daily quest asks us to do other things we didn't do in the questline.0 -
mocap✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS, just do something with questing for vet players. It's just unplayable. I don't want Murkmire and i didn't complete Summerset because of this. Overland questing is just stupidly boring for vet players.
And please, don't shield it with "story". Story without some challenging is BS. I'd rather read my favorite Stephen King than do ESO quests without any challenge at all.0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joaaocaampos wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »I've seen that quote from Gina. however, I STILL disagree that overall difficulty should be increased. why? because and this is a personal example entirely, but I originally actualy preordered this game. I was in Beta and early acess. and I left before my free month with purchase was over because "gasp" the game was too hard for me. but CP! you say. new player doesn't have CP. and veteran player who is not god's gift to video games - relies on CP to make content actualy doable for them.
and no, before you go there, i'm NOT talking about world bosses. I'm talking about regular content. regular overland. personal quests. mage and fighter guild storylines. those. yes there are a LOT of players for whom these things are actualy challenging the way that they are scaled right now. STILL.
maybe some of the power creep can be addressed and possibly should be. I personaly LOVE how the game feels for me at max allotable CP, and no I still cannot solo world bosses and only the earliest group dungeons on normal. but I also understand that this power creep is largely responsible for my and many others having such a bad time with DLC dungeons, becasue DLC dungeons are designed for veteran players who are skilled and are closer to the top of that power creep.
so yes. it should be addressed. but how? IMO not by making overland harder. but by no longer throwing CP at players with every quarterly update. by recalculating just how much power you GET from CP. not changing overland. changing champion system.
@Linaleah If you read Concept 1 again, you'll see that I don't want to hit new players. If you read all my comments on the answers, you'll see that I thought of a counterpoint when I was writing this discussion. In the end, I deleted what I wrote and wrote just this:
"So... What about new players who don't have CP yet? Or those who have low CP? Well, I know monsters will be at least 50% more powerful, right? No matter what, tests will be needed. PTS! In my opinion, ESO should be a bit more challenging, even for new players! If monsters become too powerful for new players, ZOS can always fix a few things."
Do you see this highlighted quote? There was a huge original text there. Like I said, I deleted it. Maybe I can edit the discussion and present the counterpoint.
In short, chars lvl 3-49 will not be impacted by this change. For them, the monsters will have the same current power.
But this would be an initial counterpoint.
what about lvl 50ties. what about players who may be high CP becasue they have been playing for a while, but they are nowhere near the top range of the possible power creep abilitywise? you know, people who still do about 10k dps when they are actualy trying. people who cannot weave. most players you meet in your random pugs?
people WILL be negatively affected if the world is scaled up in difficulty. there is a reason why it was scaled down. and down. and down again in a first place.
and you know what happens when you make the game too difficult before you make it easier? people leave and do not come back. oh some do. but more people leave and don't come back then those who come back and give it another chance.
the irony about this whole conversation is even as we are discussing how game is too easy... there are multiple threads complaining about balancing nerfs.
@Linaleah Perhaps the counterpoint can be extended to CP 160. Nothing more.
BTW, "CP for all Overland Monsters and Bosses" is just a concept. I introduced three. I'll be happy if the other two were implemented.- CP for all Overland Monsters and Bosses
- Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons
- Public Dungeons as Quest Hubs
Public Dungeons as Quest Hubs would be the best way to introduce "Veteran Quest Hubs". In addition to the traditional 12+ (Main/Side) Quest Hubs, we would have 6 Public Dungeons per Chapter (and 2 Public Dungeons per Zone DLC). And each of them would have a unique (Normal/Veteran) questline. After the questline ends, a daily quest is unlocked. And this daily quest asks us to do other things we didn't do in the questline.
I'm very positive anything that creates optional instances. as long as current difficulty remains, let there be more instanced options in varying difficutlies by all means
however, I do still think that CP etc needs to be re balanced because the gap between skilled and less skilled is growing wider and wider. unfortunately Zos not only has trouble balancing without hurting their less skilled players, but also, as I have pointed out the irony - a lot of the people who complain about how easy overland is - also complain whenever ZoS nerfs any of their skills and abilities so that they cannot just roflstomp everything in their way/dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭
Really ? Read these forums, complaining is the main theme about everything.Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?
Good answer !!
If you make it more difficult, people will complain its too hard. No good answer here except the above !
It's not even an answer, it's more like a " give me some awesome here" comment, those who want to increase artificially the difficulty perfectly know how they can do it, and they don't need anyone to remind them how( play naked ect ...)
What the OP propose is different, but you can not understand unless you enjoy hard content.
Why would people complain if they can choose the difficulty tier for questing/public dungeon/overland like current dungeons ? ( Normal/vet)
Easy, Hard I think this game is great thats why I play it everyday. Sure there are things that could be fixed, but instead of whining about them I continue to play. Because they will eventually get fixed.
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