Idea: Undodgeable Rune Cage, But Keep Delay

Valrien · November 2018

In essence, Rune Cage is impossible to avoid again, BUT the delay still exists.

That way Sorcs can get a guaranteed CC to lock in their burst, but other players will have adequate time to enact counterplay measures such as reflects or purges so that they don't get killed outright.

It also fits with the delayed burst playstyle that Sorc has

Salvas_Aren · November 2018

Runecage was fine as it was intended. However, it was broken. Fixing it and making it work like in the old description would have been perfect.

Solariken · November 2018

I really like the way it is now. Since it's telegraphed and dodgeable, they could probably bring the damage back on break free and maybe even increase it a little bit.

ZarkingFrued · November 2018

People still use this? At this point you need the planets to align on a leap year to get a stun out of it.

Valrien · November 2018

Solariken wrote: »

I really like the way it is now. Since it's telegraphed and dodgeable, they could probably bring the damage back on break free and maybe even increase it a little bit.

Highly telegraphed and dodgeable with little return is a bad combo

Lylith · November 2018

the original version should've never been touched.

SteveCampsOut · November 2018

The whole concept of "Dodge-able" spells is silly imho. Rune cage isn't like a fireball or bolt of lightening that travels from you to your victim. It's a cage spell you place on them. How do you justify making that dodge-able?

Solariken · November 2018

Valrien wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I really like the way it is now. Since it's telegraphed and dodgeable, they could probably bring the damage back on break free and maybe even increase it a little bit.

Highly telegraphed and dodgeable with little return is a bad combo

But it has to be this way. The previous iteration was a nightmare whenever outnumbered. It sets up a super heavy combo at max range which needs room for counterplay.

Valrien · November 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I really like the way it is now. Since it's telegraphed and dodgeable, they could probably bring the damage back on break free and maybe even increase it a little bit.

Highly telegraphed and dodgeable with little return is a bad combo

But it has to be this way. The previous iteration was a nightmare whenever outnumbered. It sets up a super heavy combo at max range which needs room for counterplay.

If you're outnumbered and even one player is good then you're probably dead anyways

Btw the counterplay to range is a gap closer

Apherius · November 2018

Currently clench is far better, I really don't understand those who like the current version.

Bergzorn · November 2018

I have yet to be hit by a single traditional sorc burst combo since Murkmire launched. This is not because I dodge-roll all the cages (I don't, I break the stun and enjoy some seconds of CC immunity), but because they are just thrown randomly out of a zerg with no follow-up.

My Defensive Rune gets dodged now and then, but the buff I'd prefer over it being undodgeable is a weak but unconditional DOT attached to the skill (both morphs) to trigger the Blood Magic passive.

On the receiving end, I like the delay because the stun doesn't 'pull' you out of whatever you were doing. Fossilize and Fear often still act this way, stunning your character a few split seconds before the visual / animation. It's annoying as ***.

Feanor · November 2018

Don’t waste your energy. As @Derra has pointed out the skill is either overpowered or useless - it’s so hard to find an acceptable state that is powerful and yet allows ample counterplay.

What we really need is the class overhaul the devs hinted at in the last class rep meeting. Nothing else.

Biro123 · November 2018

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I really like the way it is now. Since it's telegraphed and dodgeable, they could probably bring the damage back on break free and maybe even increase it a little bit.

Highly telegraphed and dodgeable with little return is a bad combo

But it has to be this way. The previous iteration was a nightmare whenever outnumbered. It sets up a super heavy combo at max range which needs room for counterplay.

It's no different in a zerg to be fair.. 1v1, it's never gonna land. When getting Xv1d, if you're not using a dodge build, it either runs you out of stam or gets you anyway....
They just managed to make it ONLY useful as a zerging tool.

And yeah, there are people still spamming it from the back of a zerg (yet landing no burst to go with it - so I guess they're just spamming it on as many opponents as they can..)

Lord-Otto · November 2018

Eh. It was perfect in CwC, being a hard counter to dodge, at the cost of dealing no damage. A perfect fit for Meteor, which is poop without it.
The nerfs went overboard. Even with Meteor, you can dodge the Cage and block the Met, it's silly. In the meantime, I get stunned from Dawnbreakers out of the blue and my shields still melt outnumbered.
And where's Force Pulse gone? Does it still exist? Are there staves besides the Master's? Maybe Summerset was a bit much with damaging Rune Cage, but the way it was handled was just poor.

Gargath · November 2018

A right place for all sorcs is on a Silver Leash

.

Beardimus · November 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Eh. It was perfect in CwC, being a hard counter to dodge, at the cost of dealing no damage. A perfect fit for Meteor, which is poop without it.
The nerfs went overboard. Even with Meteor, you can dodge the Cage and block the Met, it's silly. In the meantime, I get stunned from Dawnbreakers out of the blue and my shields still melt outnumbered.
And where's Force Pulse gone? Does it still exist? Are there staves besides the Master's? Maybe Summerset was a bit much with damaging Rune Cage, but the way it was handled was just poor.

Agreed

PapaWeeb · November 2018

Rune cage is still pretty potent.

Load them up with the usual burst > meteor > runecage. They either try to block the meteor and get cc'd, or dodge the cage and take a meteor up the bottom.

Also not everyone in cyro is a stamnb. Mag classes can't afford to dodge every cage, it helps to break down heavy s&b builds who can't roll but can block. Destructive reach is reflectable and no longer procs enchants over and over. I'd say depending on your build, cage still has its place.

SodanTok · November 2018

This skill cant ever be undodgeable. Ranged undodgeable CC no matter the delay or animation or whatever will always be stupidly OP. The end.

Valrien · November 2018

SodanTok wrote: »

This skill cant ever be undodgeable. Ranged undodgeable CC no matter the delay or animation or whatever will always be stupidly OP. The end.

Range doesn't especially matter with the existence of a gap closer, and undodgeable CC I'd necessary with stam builds being the meta for so long now.

Every class needs at least one imo

BlackMadara · November 2018

Valrien wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

This skill cant ever be undodgeable. Ranged undodgeable CC no matter the delay or animation or whatever will always be stupidly OP. The end.

Range doesn't especially matter with the existence of a gap closer, and undodgeable CC I'd necessary with stam builds being the meta for so long now.

Every class needs at least one imo

The gap closer argument doesn't work. Max range attacks out range gap closers. Gap closers do not do much damage. The time it takes for you to travel to target is time the target is spending attacking you. Gap closers help, for sure, but range is a powerful aspect nonetheless.

Undodgeable CC is a powerful tool that should be restricted to a certain few. There needs to be a balance. Being able to set up stackable, powerful delayed burst with an unavoidable CC is a huge imbalance. DK's, the control class, have to go through multiple steps for burst combo and stacking burst is difficult and draining. Hence petrify is ok. NB are more powerful opening up from stealth, but then each damage instance is on the GCD. They also don't want to stay in one spot taking damage, hence the way fear works. Other classes have the potential to set up stackable burst combos that supply multiple damage instances in less GCDs. Having an unavoidable CC makes these classes overperform. you see this with the buffed rune cage.

Derra · November 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Don’t waste your energy. As @Derra has pointed out the skill is either overpowered or useless - it’s so hard to find an acceptable state that is powerful and yet allows ample counterplay.

What we really need is the class overhaul the devs hinted at in the last class rep meeting. Nothing else.

In the current state it would be quite reasonably balanced if it did dmg when it lands - that´s all i´d change about it.

It has a delay clear audio and visual - i see no reason why the dmg should be avoidable now when it actually hits the target.

SodanTok · November 2018

Valrien wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

This skill cant ever be undodgeable. Ranged undodgeable CC no matter the delay or animation or whatever will always be stupidly OP. The end.

Range doesn't especially matter with the existence of a gap closer, and undodgeable CC I'd necessary with stam builds being the meta for so long now.

Every class needs at least one imo

Sounds like typical magsorc argument. Go play some medium build without cloak and tell me how it is absolutely necessary to give others tool to guarantee their burst combo every 10s when your only way to mitigate is avoiding getting hit.

Valrien · November 2018

SodanTok wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

This skill cant ever be undodgeable. Ranged undodgeable CC no matter the delay or animation or whatever will always be stupidly OP. The end.

Range doesn't especially matter with the existence of a gap closer, and undodgeable CC I'd necessary with stam builds being the meta for so long now.

Every class needs at least one imo

Sounds like typical magsorc argument. Go play some medium build without cloak and tell me how it is absolutely necessary to give others tool to guarantee their burst combo every 10s when your only way to mitigate is avoiding getting hit.

Well:
DKs have wings (Reflect Frags and Light Attacks)
Templars have Cleansing (Purge Curse and Fury)
Wardens have Shimmering (Absorb Frags and Light Attacks)

Scales is the same cost as Cloak
Cleansing is a bit more expensive, but has the added bonus of healing (further adding to survivability)
Shimmering is the cheapest out of all of these examples

Ironically, the only character that can't reliably counter a Mag Sorc would be a Stam Sorc in this scenario. And they have a bit of speed still, so at the very least they can try to run circles around a Sorc

With these one-button counters, your build can shut down a Sorc combo due to the fact that the burst combo is woefully ineffective if even one part of it doesn't land properly...and with the strength of bleeds, all you need to do is negate one combo before you can force a Sorcerer on the defensive and tear them to shreds.

You say I have a typical Mag Sorc argument, but it's more like the "regular reasonable person argument while the traditional Stam build argument boils down to playing the victim because the big, bad Mag Sorc can actually kill something.