"Break Free" made magicka based rather than Stamina?

Kelces · November 2018

Check out the "steed" section in the CP, put some points to "warlord" - problem solved. It's not that bad as some might make it out to be.

Kadoin · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

The other option would be making it so that you were immune to cc states while a shield was up so that you wouldn't have to block while your damage shield is up (since blocking while having a shield up doesn't reduce damage done to the shield but is currently necessary to prevent being stunned/pulled/mezzed/launched etc, and does mitigate damage in excess of your shield amount that is done to your health), which would conserve your limited stamina for blocking or dodging between damage shields, but I feel that would have even more resistance than suggesting break free be magicka based.

CC immunity while shield is up, when you can spam it and have little to no consequences of doing so? So basically health + CC immunity...what skill in the game does that all in one? Answer: none because it would be too powerful and actually make the changes to shields redundant (1) they will be even more powerful than before, (2) they will be required to be utilized in PvE to skip mechanics, and (3) shields are already close to their old power or stronger with certain builds in both PvE and PvP. Stam would die in PvE and PvP.

Another thing, is that every class has access to a method to get more stam, whether its from conversion of mag to stam, paying stam to get more over time, getting stam on a skill use, or stam from a buff. I don't know what class you play, but you're choosing not to do so. Then there are stam absorb glyphs, poison, etc. and then you run into excuses territory.

Don't want to run tri-food? Okay. Don't want to use absorb stam glyph? Okay. Don't want to use class skills that allow you to convert stam into mag or stam into more stam over time? Okay. Don't want to use a cost reduction set? Okay. Don't want to use tri-glyph? Okay. Don't want to use triune? Okay. Don't want to shacklebreaker? Okay. Don't want to use drain stam poisons? Okay.

But don't pretend that there is nothing you can do and then claim your DPS would drop into oblivion. You choosing not to do any of these things doesn't mean a mechanic should be buffed so you don't have to make sacrifices. I'm guessing you're complaining about PvP, because in PvE your suggestions and complaints make little to no sense when someone else can simply help you sustain stam/mag or you can run a potion, and running tri-food there would be even less of an issue than in solo PvP.

You're also wrong about stam players and large stam pools being an advantage. If anything, a mag build with an ice staff has an advantage over stam players because they can simply use mag to block and stam exclusively for break free and roll. The splitting of resources like this actually gives mag builds an advantage. I know this because I do it and I always out-sustain stam builds that come across me, especially when I force them to roll and break free. I also use it in PvE tanking and with SnB + ice staff never come close to losing my mag or stam completely, even when there is no one throwing shards or orbs in a PUG.

MartiniDaniels · November 2018

If you find yourself a little bit low either on stamina or magicka, use shacklebreaker set.

Topic starter doesn't understand one thing - not only max pool matters, also sustain of that pool matters and since sustain % stacks one on each other, if magicka or stamina can be universal answer for any problem, game will turn on just to two builds (aside from tanks) - one magicka and one stamina, now we are at least forced to adapt to magicka cost of support skills with stamina toons, and to stamina cost of dodge roll / break free with magicka toons.

And aside from top-tier players, 90% of content is easier for magicka players and you are whining??? it was confirmed by numerous polls that 75%+ player base prefers magicka races/morphs/classes etc.. most expensive popular sets are magicka sets, look what's going on spell strategist, and mother sorrow was source of income for years.. vet trials prefer magicka dps, dlc vets FORCE you to go ranged majority time of the encounter with boss because AOE near him is too deadly, and you still whine??

Ash_In_My_Sujamma · November 2018

I reject this idea like Dio rejected humanity

Flynch · November 2018

They could possibly introduce a set that swaps out the resource needed for breaking free, with maybe an AoE on a 10 sec CD. The compromise being that you may lack in other ways set-wise.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · November 2018

I read the title and thought "maybe they have an interesting passive option that allows for choice." Maybe a world skill like passive or option. But instead it literally seems like a blanket change, which is bad for stam based toons.

Unless you have specific options to make buffs/skills cost stam too. As a magDK i feel sorry for my stam counterparts because they NEED the magicka for resistance buffs, defensive skills such as wings and even their best access to a stun.

If you made break free cost magicka only it would only hurt to worse off versions of classes or rather, classes which have to HEAVILY rely on weapon skills or magicka based class skills for survival. Things like stamDK, stamplar and stam sorc.

If it was implemented via a passive that is an option so players can further diversify builds around options, then there would be potential for it.

A blanket change sounds like the idea of someone who runs bi-stat or potent brew in PvP and cries when their 8.5k stam pool isn't enough.

For PvE if your DPS are having to constantly dodge roll or block then either the healers aren't getting the heals to you (poor positioning of either DPS or healer) or the tank has not taunted priority targets correctly. Either way that’s a L2P issue.

Arato · November 2018

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Can't you back bar an ice staff?

#1, that lowers damage, again, magicka users are told to cut their damage to compensate for heavy handed nerfs, while stamina does not have to.
#2. Do you really want to encourage magicka dps users to basically slot a taunt? That's going to disrupt things more than making break free magicka based.

Arato · November 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

The other option would be making it so that you were immune to cc states while a shield was up so that you wouldn't have to block while your damage shield is up (since blocking while having a shield up doesn't reduce damage done to the shield but is currently necessary to prevent being stunned/pulled/mezzed/launched etc, and does mitigate damage in excess of your shield amount that is done to your health), which would conserve your limited stamina for blocking or dodging between damage shields, but I feel that would have even more resistance than suggesting break free be magicka based.

CC immunity while shield is up, when you can spam it and have little to no consequences of doing so? So basically health + CC immunity...what skill in the game does that all in one? Answer: none because it would be too powerful and actually make the changes to shields redundant (1) they will be even more powerful than before, (2) they will be required to be utilized in PvE to skip mechanics, and (3) shields are already close to their old power or stronger with certain builds in both PvE and PvP. Stam would die in PvE and PvP.

Another thing, is that every class has access to a method to get more stam, whether its from conversion of mag to stam, paying stam to get more over time, getting stam on a skill use, or stam from a buff. I don't know what class you play, but you're choosing not to do so. Then there are stam absorb glyphs, poison, etc. and then you run into excuses territory.

Don't want to run tri-food? Okay. Don't want to use absorb stam glyph? Okay. Don't want to use class skills that allow you to convert stam into mag or stam into more stam over time? Okay. Don't want to use a cost reduction set? Okay. Don't want to use tri-glyph? Okay. Don't want to use triune? Okay. Don't want to shacklebreaker? Okay. Don't want to use drain stam poisons? Okay.

But don't pretend that there is nothing you can do and then claim your DPS would drop into oblivion. You choosing not to do any of these things doesn't mean a mechanic should be buffed so you don't have to make sacrifices. I'm guessing you're complaining about PvP, because in PvE your suggestions and complaints make little to no sense when someone else can simply help you sustain stam/mag or you can run a potion, and running tri-food there would be even less of an issue than in solo PvP.

You're also wrong about stam players and large stam pools being an advantage. If anything, a mag build with an ice staff has an advantage over stam players because they can simply use mag to block and stam exclusively for break free and roll. The splitting of resources like this actually gives mag builds an advantage. I know this because I do it and I always out-sustain stam builds that come across me, especially when I force them to roll and break free. I also use it in PvE tanking and with SnB + ice staff never come close to losing my mag or stam completely, even when there is no one throwing shards or orbs in a PUG.

Everything you just suggested = Gut your dps in order to compensate, while stam can go full stam on everything and have their cake and eat it too. Why should magicka need to "make interesting choices" IE gut their dps while stam does not have to. If Magicka were clearly doing way more damage than stam you might have a point, but they don't, so you don't have a point.

jcm2606 · November 2018

Okay. At this point, this thread literally just boils down to "I had my fun taken away, so I want to take everybody else's fun away."

No. Everything this entire thread, at its core, stands for, gets a resounding no from me. Swapping break free to magicka will not make magicka on par with stamina (or the other way round, as you seem to think that because you were wrong'd, stamina should be wrong'd to, which is not how balance is achieved in the slightest). It will actually make it far worse than even magicka currently is.

You may have only 9k stamina, but you have the luxury of having basically all skills pull from magicka instead of stamina. I, as a stamina main, don't. My PVP stamDK main has to juggle Volatile Armor, Reflective Scales and Fossilize within an 11k stamina pool (yes, 11k, as I have invested resources in tri-stat glyphs, so even I "have to make interesting choices"). To make matters worse, there are actually two more skills I could slot, too: Flames of Oblivion and Obsidian Shard. But my magicka pool is already hampered enough, so I live without having these.

So, no. If you're pissed off that shields are no longer a reliable method of defense, be pissed off at Zenimax removing one of your tools. Don't be pissed off at stamina builds for having more defensive options.

For the last damn time, you, and this entire damn community, don't understand that balance does not mean "nerf everybody down to my level." Want balance? Suggest alternatives for your own problems. Don't create problems for other players.

/thread

Skoomah · November 2018

Magicka based defensive techniques:

Nightblade - Cloak, the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game. Reset the fight at will.

Sorcerer - Shields, they can still shield stack just fine. Streak away to run, lay down mines to deny an area, Rune cage can stun from very far away.

Templar: Cleanse is the antidote to enchant meta. Super effective. Big fat heals from 5% to 100% hp is still a thing.

Wardens - Try fighting a well built ice warden that can perma immobilize and snare you to death. Can’t hit or run if you can’t position properly.

Dragonknight - They can still heal right back to full in seconds because on average 6-8 skills on their bar give them passive healing.

The mitigation options on magicka toons are freely available to anyone who is willing to build for it. Please stop trying to redesign the game every time you die to something. Spend your time developing a counter instead of lodging bombs at giant swaths of the population.

Arato · November 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

Okay. At this point, this thread literally just boils down to "I had my fun taken away, so I want to take everybody else's fun away."

No. Everything this entire thread, at its core, stands for, gets a resounding no from me. Swapping break free to magicka will not make magicka on par with stamina (or the other way round, as you seem to think that because you were wrong'd, stamina should be wrong'd to, which is not how balance is achieved in the slightest). It will actually make it far worse than even magicka currently is.

You may have only 9k stamina, but you have the luxury of having basically all skills pull from magicka instead of stamina. I, as a stamina main, don't. My PVP stamDK main has to juggle Volatile Armor, Reflective Scales and Fossilize within an 11k stamina pool (yes, 11k, as I have invested resources in tri-stat glyphs, so even I "have to make interesting choices"). To make matters worse, there are actually two more skills I could slot, too: Flames of Oblivion and Obsidian Shard. But my magicka pool is already hampered enough, so I live without having these.

So, no. If you're pissed off that shields are no longer a reliable method of defense, be pissed off at Zenimax removing one of your tools. Don't be pissed off at stamina builds for having more defensive options.

For the last damn time, you, and this entire damn community, don't understand that balance does not mean "nerf everybody down to my level." Want balance? Suggest alternatives for your own problems. Don't create problems for other players.

/thread

None of this has been about PVP. PVP people don't go full medium armor full stamina either. Nobody does. In PVP you can't really go glass cannon at all unless you're just a single target ganker roaming around cyrodiil towns looking for loners. Otherwise in a BG or team fight people will Identify who the glassy person is and blow them up in a few seconds. People have always prioritized survival over high dps in PVP. This IS PVE oriented where yes, you either max out your dps, or you don't get invites, or get kicked.

This comes down to Stamina PVP players complaining that they couldn't one shot magsorcs from stealth because of shields so they got the shields nerfed repeatedly until now they're more useful for tanks than magicka dps. Now for a magicka dps shields last 1 hit if that. Even from just vanilla overland world bosses every single attack blows through a shield, with major ward and major resolve it might have 2k leftover from the 8k shield, after that you get hit again and you're half dead, and you still need to block even though it doesn't reduce damage to avoid launches and stuns, so you're simultaneously burning through your magicka and stamina.on the same hit. After 6 or so blocks, you're out, and the next uppercut or stun is probably going to kill you. because you'll eat a hit that stuns you (and takes off most if not all of your shield), not have stam to break out, and the next hit will implode you. It was too much for stam players for magicka players to even have one means of defense that they could use their primary pool to fuel so we basically got it taken away.

Ranger209 · November 2018

Add break free as a feature to annulment. That skill was gutted down to 40% max health cap and has a cost of 4590 mag which is a lot of buck for the bang that you get. This would give all light armor mag users another option while still maintaining mag tanks to use stam for break free or ice staff for part time blocking.

Chilly-McFreeze · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Okay. At this point, this thread literally just boils down to "I had my fun taken away, so I want to take everybody else's fun away."

No. Everything this entire thread, at its core, stands for, gets a resounding no from me. Swapping break free to magicka will not make magicka on par with stamina (or the other way round, as you seem to think that because you were wrong'd, stamina should be wrong'd to, which is not how balance is achieved in the slightest). It will actually make it far worse than even magicka currently is.

You may have only 9k stamina, but you have the luxury of having basically all skills pull from magicka instead of stamina. I, as a stamina main, don't. My PVP stamDK main has to juggle Volatile Armor, Reflective Scales and Fossilize within an 11k stamina pool (yes, 11k, as I have invested resources in tri-stat glyphs, so even I "have to make interesting choices"). To make matters worse, there are actually two more skills I could slot, too: Flames of Oblivion and Obsidian Shard. But my magicka pool is already hampered enough, so I live without having these.

So, no. If you're pissed off that shields are no longer a reliable method of defense, be pissed off at Zenimax removing one of your tools. Don't be pissed off at stamina builds for having more defensive options.

For the last damn time, you, and this entire damn community, don't understand that balance does not mean "nerf everybody down to my level." Want balance? Suggest alternatives for your own problems. Don't create problems for other players.

/thread

None of this has been about PVP. PVP people don't go full medium armor full stamina either. Nobody does. In PVP you can't really go glass cannon at all unless you're just a single target ganker roaming around cyrodiil towns looking for loners. Otherwise in a BG or team fight people will Identify who the glassy person is and blow them up in a few seconds. People have always prioritized survival over high dps in PVP. This IS PVE oriented where yes, you either max out your dps, or you don't get invites, or get kicked.

This comes down to Stamina PVP players complaining that they couldn't one shot magsorcs from stealth because of shields so they got the shields nerfed repeatedly until now they're more useful for tanks than magicka dps. Now for a magicka dps shields last 1 hit if that. Even from just vanilla overland world bosses every single attack blows through a shield, with major ward and major resolve it might have 2k leftover from the 8k shield, after that you get hit again and you're half dead, and you still need to block even though it doesn't reduce damage to avoid launches and stuns, so you're simultaneously burning through your magicka and stamina.on the same hit. After 6 or so blocks, you're out, and the next uppercut or stun is probably going to kill you. because you'll eat a hit that stuns you (and takes off most if not all of your shield), not have stam to break out, and the next hit will implode you. It was too much for stam players for magicka players to even have one means of defense that they could use their primary pool to fuel so we basically got it taken away.

1. The devs made it very clear that the shield changes stem from PvE reasons.
2. Why don't you ask for adjustments on how block and wards work together?
3. Which specific piece of pve content puts such a strain on your stam pool that you die soley because of it?

Bam_Bam · November 2018

Nope. L2P and focus on your resource management.

JiKama · November 2018

I would rather break free actually work. As of right now I can barely break free from anything. Zo$ needs to fix it before they change it and make it worse or break something else unintentionally.

jcm2606 · November 2018

None of this has been about PVP.

Your changes will absolutely impact PVP, though.

PVP people don't go full medium armor full stamina either. Nobody does.

What does this have to do with anything we're discussing? My point is you can't just put break free on the magicka pool, because you'd give stamina players the complete shaft. Magicka players get the luxury of basically having no skills use their off pool. Stamina players don't. Having break free pull from magicka will hurt stamina far more than magicka currently hurts, I can guarantee you that.

In PVP you can't really go glass cannon at all unless you're just a single target ganker roaming around cyrodiil towns looking for loners. Otherwise in a BG or team fight people will Identify who the glassy person is and blow them up in a few seconds. People have always prioritized survival over high dps in PVP.

Again, what the hell does this have to do with anything we're discussing? Moving on...

This IS PVE oriented where yes, you either max out your dps, or you don't get invites, or get kicked.

Your changes will impact PVP, regardless of whether you're wanting to address PVE or not.

This comes down to Stamina PVP players complaining that they couldn't one shot magsorcs from stealth because of shields so they got the shields nerfed repeatedly until now they're more useful for tanks than magicka dps. Now for a magicka dps shields last 1 hit if that.

So you admit this is all just *** point scoring. "Shields got nerfed, so I want stamina nerfed into oblivion to compensate for my now vastly inferior defense."

No. You have a problem with your defense, you go ask Zenimax to address your defense. Don't *** up other player's builds because you're having a tantrum like a child.

For the record, I believe the shield changes are ridiculous. I had no issues dealing with shields, as they were such a huge investment for most players that so long as you kept pressure up (which is easy to do on stamDK), they'll eventually run out of resources and the shields will eventually drop.

The rest of your post is pointless rambling that basically just connects into what I've already said: you're having a tantrum because shields were nerfed, and want stamina to pay the price.

Azriael2 · November 2018

Why PvE players should lose all fun because of PvP players? Every single game I played before ESO, had gutted PvP dmg on most op PvE skill or just different stats for PvP and PvE..

Kadoin · November 2018

Azriael2 wrote: »

Why PvE players should lose all fun because of PvP players? Every single game I played before ESO, had gutted PvP dmg on most op PvE skill or just different stats for PvP and PvE..

In another post this would make sense, but he is complaining about break free in PvE

PvE where a tank should be preventing him from having to break free often, PvE where he can lose the regen from witchmother or whatever and run tri-food safely, PvE where he can use stam pots, di-pots (mag+stam), or tri-pots and not worry about someone stunning him and finishing him off, PvE where someone else (healer) can also help with his sustain. There is also CP...

Exactly where in PvE is it even a problem? Most bosses will be aggro'd by the tank, most bosses do not spam skills that require break free, and with the exception of rolling incorrectly (skill problem) you should be able to get out of the range of any dangerous skill. If you have a weakness, you cover it. He doesn't want to do that and keeps talking about how his "DPS will be lower," apparently forgetting you do no DPS when you are dead.

Except maybe Valkyn

kathandira · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

snip

Personally, I feel there needs to be a universal bar for these things. Not stamina, and not magicka. Something else entirely, like a 4th bar.

Camael · November 2018

Pvp point of viev only:
Ppl always keep saying that magicka builds got acces to magicka shields. As a magicka templar who plays PvP I'm getting better results not playing magicka shields. Class shield is not enough if my character is in 5light armor, even combine with light armor shield and rest staff I will keep myself in defence mode only:/ I got better results running 5heavy +2light and relay on stamina break free and as @Beardimus said it feels more like hybrid who have to juggle between resources. Even when using immovable potions and tri-stat food just to boost a bit my stam pool to not be trapped in slow-mo of endless snares. I dropped being vamp few months back and lack of mist form I tried to compensate other ways... tho having magicka break free and active dodge rolls would be a life changer (but it would be unbalanced too). I wish someone to try playing stamina build and having stamina but at heals but magicka active rolldodges and break free. I know there are plenty ppl who plays bith stam and magicka but let's not be silly... mobility is a key to survival in PvP environment. Even with huge burst heals magicka got access too (they have to play turtle there) it's not even close to active offence of stamina who can keep you in place after you burn your stam in 3 moves....

Arato · November 2018

Kadoin wrote: »

Azriael2 wrote: »

Why PvE players should lose all fun because of PvP players? Every single game I played before ESO, had gutted PvP dmg on most op PvE skill or just different stats for PvP and PvE..

In another post this would make sense, but he is complaining about break free in PvE

PvE where a tank should be preventing him from having to break free often, PvE where he can lose the regen from witchmother or whatever and run tri-food safely, PvE where he can use stam pots, di-pots (mag+stam), or tri-pots and not worry about someone stunning him and finishing him off, PvE where someone else (healer) can also help with his sustain. There is also CP...

Exactly where in PvE is it even a problem? Most bosses will be aggro'd by the tank, most bosses do not spam skills that require break free, and with the exception of rolling incorrectly (skill problem) you should be able to get out of the range of any dangerous skill. If you have a weakness, you cover it. He doesn't want to do that and keeps talking about how his "DPS will be lower," apparently forgetting you do no DPS when you are dead.

Except maybe Valkyn

VMA, World bosses where you might not have a tank and so it's often just on a DPS that is the "tank" and I end up in that position way too often, vDungeon/vTrial bosses with a lot of adds that the tank can't get control of, there's a lot of times where in PVE you're having to defend yourself no the tank doesn't automatically get aggro on everything so you never get hit like you apparently think. The way you guys make it sound you shouldn't ever need to dodge, block, bash, or break free or use shields because the DPS never gets targetted with anything.

Valrien · November 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

I hope that 60k parse number was you exaggerating. lol

@ArchMikem

You do realize Stamblades in particular can push 70k, yes?

Beardimus · November 2018

JiKama wrote: »

I would rather break free actually work. As of right now I can barely break free from anything. Zo$ needs to fix it before they change it and make it worse or break something else unintentionally.

And thats another point. Rune Cage took 5 nerfs and its biggest issue was the bugged broken free. Like Fear.

I'm unsure if they know / have acknowledged or are oblivous to certain skills being utterly broken or at least buggy to break free from.

RedRook · November 2018

(nvm)

Beardimus wrote: »

JiKama wrote: »

I would rather break free actually work. As of right now I can barely break free from anything. Zo$ needs to fix it before they change it and make it worse or break something else unintentionally.

And thats another point. Rune Cage took 5 nerfs and its biggest issue was the bugged broken free. Like Fear.

I'm unsure if they know / have acknowledged or are oblivous to certain skills being utterly broken or at least buggy to break free from.

Yeah. Break free on a magikca character would be a hell of a lot less painful if the mechanic was actually reliable.

But it's not. So another option would be good.

iiYuki · November 2018

People who said shields were OP and are also stamina players clearly forgot they have their own instant reaction ability that doesn't even take a bar slot up, magicka players however are now expected to spec into all 3 attributes so they can stay alive and use roll, break free or interrupt more than twice a minute.

templesus · November 2018

Arato wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

Azriael2 wrote: »

Why PvE players should lose all fun because of PvP players? Every single game I played before ESO, had gutted PvP dmg on most op PvE skill or just different stats for PvP and PvE..

In another post this would make sense, but he is complaining about break free in PvE

PvE where a tank should be preventing him from having to break free often, PvE where he can lose the regen from witchmother or whatever and run tri-food safely, PvE where he can use stam pots, di-pots (mag+stam), or tri-pots and not worry about someone stunning him and finishing him off, PvE where someone else (healer) can also help with his sustain. There is also CP...

Exactly where in PvE is it even a problem? Most bosses will be aggro'd by the tank, most bosses do not spam skills that require break free, and with the exception of rolling incorrectly (skill problem) you should be able to get out of the range of any dangerous skill. If you have a weakness, you cover it. He doesn't want to do that and keeps talking about how his "DPS will be lower," apparently forgetting you do no DPS when you are dead.

Except maybe Valkyn

VMA, World bosses where you might not have a tank and so it's often just on a DPS that is the "tank" and I end up in that position way too often, vDungeon/vTrial bosses with a lot of adds that the tank can't get control of, there's a lot of times where in PVE you're having to defend yourself no the tank doesn't automatically get aggro on everything so you never get hit like you apparently think. The way you guys make it sound you shouldn't ever need to dodge, block, bash, or break free or use shields because the DPS never gets targetted with anything.

Because you shouldn’t. L2P issue. Move along.

drkfrontiers · November 2018

Ehr .... so your solution is to nerf magicka builds even more? Because Stamblades need moar powar!!! .. NO

Can I then please cast my iffy shields using Stamina? Because I feel like I have to expend alot of effort trying to stay alive now...

Rungar · November 2018

id like to see break free use all three of your stats evenly rather than just stamina.

CatchMeTrolling · November 2018

Welll I can agree that break free needs adjusting, specifically for pvp. I don’t see an issue in pve. But I don’t agree break free should cost magic, that would hurt magic classes more.

I think there needs to be a new bar for that players need to invest in, this could also solve the cp power creep.

KatzMainTank · November 2018

No.

Well....on second thought...

No.