jainiadral wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Diminishing returns. Probably because people started demanding harder and harder content, because they and their 2 friends want it, but the rest of the world doesn't want to be stuck in a dungeon for 3 hours trying to do ridiculously diffficult content. Plus anyone who contends with lag, like a lot of us Aussies, might as well not even bother joining the group.

I like moderately challenging content, but don't want frustration. If I want to be frustrated, I go to work, and they pay me for it.




And before it gets said, no, most people can't solo a group dungeon, even FG1, and they can't pull 40K dps.

This. if i wanted to spend 1-3 hours in an instance, i would do maelstrom or a trial or something. I like my dungeon runs( not speed runs either) to be like my pizza, 30 minutes or less. It takes longer to do DLC dungeons but the number of bosses are the same and thus the rewards are generally the same. So dont want to run them unless i need gear in them and that is rarely.

I've noticed the trend toward longer duration in just about everything in this game. DLC delves are insanely long and complex beginning with Orsinium. Quests take longer to complete and involve multiple stages-- a few of Morrowind's quests took me hours to finish.

I wish everything could be broken down a bit better.

personaly I actualy don't mind when quests are longer, becasue unlike dungeons, I don't have to do all the stages in the same play session - can just pick up where I left off the next day. other stuff though.. yeah.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Furthermore imo the difficulty became way over the top with dragonbones and wolfhunter dlc dungeons.
Horn of the reach dungeons had a good lvl of difficulty when they where released.
Dragonbones was ok on release for good groups, but if your goup was average or below it was horrible.

Agreed. HotR is my favourite dungeon DLC by far. The hardmodes were challenging at first, but entirely doable (although Bloodroot Forge is a bit RNG-heavy).
Dragonbones and Wolfhunter hardmodes are absolutely insane. Too much RNG, too many simultaneous mechanics. I haven't completed them with any of my characters so far, and I actually like the dungeon DLCs. What are people going to say who already struggle with the vet dungeons?

Gatviper wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

At which point, you're not after anything the dungeon is offering anyway - the only reason people run the original vet dungeons is for the keys, not the content?

I'd disagree with that, it's not that I don't do enough dps (quite a lot for Vet dungeons), and I do it for keys, but also for the easier mindless dps part in those dungeons.

There's obviously a difference in target market. If I'm not engaged with the content because it's too easy or you don't have to think, I find it hard to justify doing it. I accept some people may wish to do it because it's easy, just as people don't like doing it because easy. There's also always normal mode which gives same key count as vet non-HM.

The part where I know I can go out of the way of a red circle, or stop to dps because boss might one-shot a group member otherwise (Vaults of Madness in Coldharbour for anyone who's run it), or try to burn that boss hard before he has even a chance to.

I can't think of a boss in Coldharbour that's intended to one-shot. If you're referring to the wraith near the start just after the boss - in which case that was never supposed to be a one-shot, but always just channeled/reflected back at a group-member. The only reason it's a one-shot now is because people are doing more DPS.

And that is where I think ZoS lost it, focusing on the hard-think, challenging group dungeons like in DLCs, which cater only to smaller percentage of playerbase.

Interesting situation for ZOS here. If the mechanics don't exist or are very forgiving in the normal versions, there are forum threads about how there's too much discrepancy between normals and vets, and how you can ignore mechanics on normal (so no-one learns), and seemingly there's also concern that the mechanics are too harsh on normals and can't be ignored.

The problem isn't that content is either designed for casuals OR designed for hardcore 'groups' (definitely not individual players, almost ever), the problem is there's no balance between any content. People on this forum will imply you don't know what you're doing if you can't beat a DLC dungeon in a pug. They also say that if you're not enjoying the experience, go play overworld content. Except there's absolutely no similarity between the two. One can be beaten spamming light attacks with almost no worry, the other REQUIRES universal knowledge of the content and at least 75% of the team to handle mechanic checks perfectly. There's no individual skill there. There's total group capability and no reward for an individual to succeed on their own, and overworld content has no satisfactory aspects to it whatsoever unless you just want to farm and grind for gear and mats. So where's the duo content? Where's the interesting 'castle siege' scenario that another member mentioned earlier in the thread? Where's the challenging solo content that exists to make all players learn to check for the mechanics DLC dungeons just throw at you without warning? Not even the vanilla dungeons set the new players to learn these things properly. You either get insanely frustrating mechanics that become repetitive and easy with total group knowledge (and are literally designed to be farmed as such, nice...), or you can literally thousands of hours of cut and paste combat scenarios in the overworld thats only true value is that some zones give better gear than others. I also work full time, and I'd like to come home and play a challenging and rewarding experience, not get screamed at by PUGs because I didn't happen to join any guilds full of likeable people ready to teach you all these mechanics without passive aggressively asking you to watch 20 minute youtube videos explaining the mechanics of each boss in said dungeon. God...

I think you guys are overlooking the obvious; that is most people don't have the DLC dungeons unlocked.

Only people who have an active ESO+ sub or who explicitly bought the DLCs will be able to play them. My guess is that is 25% of the population or less.

Its a shame because more people might sub if they new they could farm those dungons like they can the original ones. But as you all noted, they are a hassle.

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I think you guys are overlooking the obvious; that is most people don't have the DLC dungeons unlocked.

Only people who have an active ESO+ sub or who explicitly bought the DLCs will be able to play them. My guess is that is 25% of the population or less.

Its a shame because more people might sub if they new they could farm those dungons like they can the original ones. But as you all noted, they are a hassle.

I don't think that figure is borne out by the number of people you see in new zones, be they DLC or Chapter. However, the situation with Murkmire is rather unique because those who would normally have bought it are doubtless waiting for it to be the final daily login reward at the end of November. So for now it's just the subscribers who are accessing it.

So far as grouping at the moment is concerned, the problem is more likely to be one of looking to play with others at a time when most are running the Witches Festival or exploring Murkmire, both of which tend to be done solo.

Linaleah wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Diminishing returns. Probably because people started demanding harder and harder content, because they and their 2 friends want it, but the rest of the world doesn't want to be stuck in a dungeon for 3 hours trying to do ridiculously diffficult content. Plus anyone who contends with lag, like a lot of us Aussies, might as well not even bother joining the group.

I like moderately challenging content, but don't want frustration. If I want to be frustrated, I go to work, and they pay me for it.




And before it gets said, no, most people can't solo a group dungeon, even FG1, and they can't pull 40K dps.

This. if i wanted to spend 1-3 hours in an instance, i would do maelstrom or a trial or something. I like my dungeon runs( not speed runs either) to be like my pizza, 30 minutes or less. It takes longer to do DLC dungeons but the number of bosses are the same and thus the rewards are generally the same. So dont want to run them unless i need gear in them and that is rarely.

I've noticed the trend toward longer duration in just about everything in this game. DLC delves are insanely long and complex beginning with Orsinium. Quests take longer to complete and involve multiple stages-- a few of Morrowind's quests took me hours to finish.

I wish everything could be broken down a bit better.

personaly I actualy don't mind when quests are longer, becasue unlike dungeons, I don't have to do all the stages in the same play session - can just pick up where I left off the next day. other stuff though.. yeah.

True, that-- for the most part. The worst quests I've been thinking of are the end-of-the-line quests in Clockwork City (all those endless ramps that you run down until your fingers cry in pain), that one endless stealth/trap quest in Wrothgar, and Morrowind, with the endless multi-stage invasion/boss battle. Things you can't take a break from, unfortunately. Those were just unnecessarily drawn out.

Longer isn't always better. I'm wondering if the DLC dungeons might get a better reception if they hadn't been bitten by the duration bug-- not that I've touched them myself.

There will always be easier and harder content.

When ESO came out, Vaults of Madness (the normal version, veteran didn't exist) used to be the hardest dungeon in the game. There were no champion points, no weapon ultimates and a piece of gear of a certain quality only gave around 1/4 of the stats it gives now (there have been a few very heavy buffs to gear in the history of ESO).

What people consider 60k single target dps nowadays, was 15k back then. If you were able to pull 15k single target in 2014, you were a dps god, one of the 0.01%. Most DDs were somewhere between 4k and 7k. Just light attacking would've given you maybe 200 dps. Light attacks got some ridiculous buffs along the way as well.

What I'm trying to say is, that's how MMOs work. If you find (vet) DLC dungeons too hard, don't do them yet. Do the content that fits your skill. Do the DLCs once you get better. And if you don't get better, power creep will eventually get you there anyway.

---

...but that doesn't answer OP's question.

The easiest way to find groups for vet DLC dungeons is when they are dailies. I never had any problems with that as DD. Since most people in an average zone chat are scared to death of anything DLC-related, you should get a response quickly when you look for a group or make a group yourself, since a message looking for "DLC HM" does stand out instantly and attracts the more adventurous heroes.

I imagine zos is aware of their lackluster uptake of the dlc dungeons. My advice would be to continue on with one of the two dungeons they release and try something different with the second one.

the reason why they are hard (or too easy) is that dps is broken in the game. Should they choose to fix that everything will naturally come in line.

I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.

Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.

For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Greysson wrote: »

SakuraRush wrote: »

Most players want the biggest reward for the least effort in the smallest amount of time. In addition to that many of the DLC dungeons are a nightmare to pug. They have actual mechanics sometimes and that seems to baffle a great many player.

This isn't an issue unique to ESO and is something you will encounter in any MMO. Players want a "gimme loot" button. The moment loot is behind a challenge those players will call for nerfs.

So, you are one of these people who are saying that i have to work for my shiny items?
No, i dont. I am playing this game after work, to relax, and not to work again.
I dont want anything gifted or a "gimme all" button, i do vet hm dungeons, but it is rediculous, in my opinion, to spent time for learning mechanics and try and try over and over again to get some content done in a game i want to play.
I dont complain about trials and their hardmodes, i have never liked raids in any game i have played so far, i just hate the rediculous difficulty and the one shot mechanics of the most dlc dungeons and the fact, that ZOS keeps releasing only harder dungeons, nothing in sight for more casual players like me.

99.9 percent of this game is designed for casual players. Vet dlc hm 4 mans, the newer vet trial(s??), and maybe vma are considered hard content. Yep, excluding literally the rest of the entire game, nothing in sight for casuals.

99.9 percent of this game is OLD content. ZOS should not expect average players to keep subsidizing new DLC that only feature content designed for a tiny minority of players.

99 percent of all new released content is aimed at casual players. We got vet brp this time as hard content. The last 2 released dlc dungeons are hard on vet HM with MHK HM probably being the easiest dlc HM to complete of them all.

The last trial to be released was CR. My guild is full of casual folks where you'll get more accolades for completing master angler than you will for CR on vet and on launch day we walked in there (not on vet) with 12 people (most who don't raid) and blew through it with no strats at all while /lute during boss fights. This game is designed for the casual person first, period. All overland content that is released can be breezed through with light attacks only while drooling on yourself. So one piece of content per launch of new content is hard only if you CHOOSE to run it on the hard version which drops rewards barely better than the easy version of said content; dlc dungeons are 2 pieces of hard content if CHOSEN to ran on the hard version of them.

So other than the vet or hard mode version of what's released yearly, what is so hard about content that ZOS is releasing that casual players are having a hard time with? Delve bosses?

edit:
Normal CR was being cleared by people forming pugs of anyone in zone chat cp 160 + that would respond to the lfg requests the moment it launched.

I enjoy the DLC dungeons, but there is only so much time for gaming. Especially with an event where the rewards are more valuable in a trial or arena due to the rarer motifs.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I'm among those who won't go near DLC dungeons and several version II of the non-DLC dungeons. I know exactly the level of challenge I want and that does not include what I consider to be silly, convoluted or even downright stupid mechanics (dps checks, bosses who ignore taunts, one shot kills, hitting 'pinions (or whatever) in a certain order during the proper phase when the moons are full on a Mardas. . . . ). If I feel obliged to spend time watching You Tube walkthroughs, that tells me I'm not interested in the dungeon.

Has nothing to do with loot. You need top level gear to do top level content. Since I have no interest in top level content, I have no interest in top level gear. My healer, for example, has no interest in SPC - and for the content she enjoys she is a wonderful healer.

For those who enjoy the DLC dungeons, I am glad they are there. I'm even more glad that the more basic dungeons remain. . . more basic.

There is some very good discussion in this thread.
This post says what I wanted, only better.

The only thing I would add, maybe there is an argument for a story mode to all DLC dungeons. Mechanics closer to the original dungeons and as a consequence you do not get the motif or specialist armour sets.
More "hard mode" players play the DLC as is and get the challenge and reward of the loot, more "casual" players play story mode and the reward of completing content (which they have paid for either directly or through the ESO+)