Just experienced the fake tank dilemma and it's not fun. Twice back to back, I ended up with a tank who was using a bow, running around all over the place light attacking and using arrow spray.

I'll repeat. The tank was running around using light attacks and arrow spray and only those two attacks. Wtf. The fake tank had a mic and was wondering why the healer left after the first wipe at the 1st boss. It was my 1st go at March of Sacrifice and I was watching mechanics so I did not notice what the tank was doing. After the 2nd wipe I noticed. Left promptly thereafter.

Dlc dungeons are hard, why would you queue for them as a fake tank? Waste of everyone's time.

Agenericname wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't even know how ZOS could fix this if they tried.

Other MMO group finders can check you have the right spec to allow you to flag as a tank or healer, but in ESO you can't do that because there is not spec, it's free form character building.

You could run a check on if they have a taunt slotted, but that could just be changed once inside the dungeon. The same for any HP checks, fit loads of +Health items, queue tank and then remove it afterwards.

Locking the skills onto the bar would make sure you couldn't remove them, but most DD can do fine with one skill removed and having a useless taunt on the bar.

I know theres no easy way, but we still have to do something about it. Here's an idea, far from perfect, but tell me what you think about it :

When you vote to kick, you add a reason : fake tank, fake healer, bad DPS (have it wordrd by ZOS marketing team so it doesn't sounds too harsh). It adds the benefit of letting people who have been kicked out why they were kicked. Some players may take it the good way and try to learn from it.

Here is the controversial part. After 1, 2 or 3 times you have been kicked out for being a fake tank, you get an automated message by ZOS telling you that if you want to queue as a tank, you actually have to be tanky and taunt monsters. After another 1, 2 or 3 kicks with the fake tank reason, you are forbidden to queue as a tank until you can prove that you have a tank build. That's the weakest part of my solution, I have no idea how you could prove that. A GM could confirm, but that would require more ressource (which is a wet dream).

What do you think about it? Any proposals to make it better?

How would ZOS differentiate between a legitimate report and trolling? Let's assume that its implemented; would the player accused of being a "fake tank" repeatedly be suspended from content until ZOS made a determination that the claims were valid or afterward? Can you imagine the "bad DPS" reports ZOS would have to sort through? Or these conditions could only apply to tanks and possibly healers, so a tank and/or healer has more risk to queue as such than a DD would.

What is a "tank build?" Even amongst people who do differentiate between fake tanks and inexperienced tanks the definition of what constitutes a tank differs to some extent, especially in a "play your way environtment."

First of all, thanks for the answer.

Second, people being reported for being a fake tank wouldn't be suspended from content, they would be suspended from queuing as a tank. This would force tham to queue as their true role, dps, with the corresponding queue times. On the other hand, nothing would prevent a bad tank from being badly reported, nor prevent a real tank from being trolled. Something like an automatic check, like did they have at least 5pc heavy armor and a taunt slotted when reported could prevent trolling.

Third, I never suggested this system from preventing bad dps from queuing. There's a fundamental difference between bad players and fake players. Bad players are learning the game and have every right to queue as any content they want, however slow and sluggish your pugged run might be. I know it's a pain, but it's part of the game. We've all been there and were grateful to people who carried and teached us.
The fake tanks however, are a *** plague. They are not people trying to learn their role. They're egoist scumbags that hinder their entire group's experience for the only sake of faster personal queue times. Those people should be hunted down by ZOS and prevented to negatively affect the rest of the community.

Finally, you are right, nothing really defines a ''tank'' build. But a taunt should be mandatory. There's no excuse for not slotting a taunt if you queue as a tank (I count frost heavy attack as a taunt, but only for that damned ''play your own way'' sake).

All this discussion, while being interesting, distances us from the real problem. The reason so many people queue as fake tank. It's that fact that dps queue are 30-60 mins long. Easy solution? Once you hit 200 cp, have the option to queue for 4 dps groups for normal dungeons. All the people only wanting to complete the daily for the extra exp, or the people wanting to lvl undaunted will remove themselves from the true queue, effectively reducing waiting times for dps in this queue.

Server-side logging, followed by stern finger-wagging, then threats, then a suspension if necessary.

The problem is when someone solo queues as a tank in activity finder, then does zero taunts. Not sure how much logging goes on in the servers, but apparently there was enough during the Imperial City XP glitch that they could find and ban abusers.

If it's not currently logged, then add some server-side code so that when a player solo queues as a tank, a log entry is written every time he/she uses a taunt while in the content. Run a job that looks at the tanks, find ones that didn't use taunts, and start with a stern letter to their game mail stating what a tank is supposed to do in a dungeon, telling them they are suspected of abusing the role selection in the group finder, and they are being watched.

Seems like that would fix the problem pretty quickly.

Swomp23 wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Swomp23 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I don't even know how ZOS could fix this if they tried.

Other MMO group finders can check you have the right spec to allow you to flag as a tank or healer, but in ESO you can't do that because there is not spec, it's free form character building.

You could run a check on if they have a taunt slotted, but that could just be changed once inside the dungeon. The same for any HP checks, fit loads of +Health items, queue tank and then remove it afterwards.

Locking the skills onto the bar would make sure you couldn't remove them, but most DD can do fine with one skill removed and having a useless taunt on the bar.

I know theres no easy way, but we still have to do something about it. Here's an idea, far from perfect, but tell me what you think about it :

When you vote to kick, you add a reason : fake tank, fake healer, bad DPS (have it wordrd by ZOS marketing team so it doesn't sounds too harsh). It adds the benefit of letting people who have been kicked out why they were kicked. Some players may take it the good way and try to learn from it.

Here is the controversial part. After 1, 2 or 3 times you have been kicked out for being a fake tank, you get an automated message by ZOS telling you that if you want to queue as a tank, you actually have to be tanky and taunt monsters. After another 1, 2 or 3 kicks with the fake tank reason, you are forbidden to queue as a tank until you can prove that you have a tank build. That's the weakest part of my solution, I have no idea how you could prove that. A GM could confirm, but that would require more ressource (which is a wet dream).

What do you think about it? Any proposals to make it better?

How would ZOS differentiate between a legitimate report and trolling? Let's assume that its implemented; would the player accused of being a "fake tank" repeatedly be suspended from content until ZOS made a determination that the claims were valid or afterward? Can you imagine the "bad DPS" reports ZOS would have to sort through? Or these conditions could only apply to tanks and possibly healers, so a tank and/or healer has more risk to queue as such than a DD would.

What is a "tank build?" Even amongst people who do differentiate between fake tanks and inexperienced tanks the definition of what constitutes a tank differs to some extent, especially in a "play your way environtment."

First of all, thanks for the answer.

Second, people being reported for being a fake tank wouldn't be suspended from content, they would be suspended from queuing as a tank. This would force tham to queue as their true role, dps, with the corresponding queue times. On the other hand, nothing would prevent a bad tank from being badly reported, nor prevent a real tank from being trolled. Something like an automatic check, like did they have at least 5pc heavy armor and a taunt slotted when reported could prevent trolling.

Third, I never suggested this system from preventing bad dps from queuing. There's a fundamental difference between bad players and fake players. Bad players are learning the game and have every right to queue as any content they want, however slow and sluggish your pugged run might be. I know it's a pain, but it's part of the game. We've all been there and were grateful to people who carried and teached us.
The fake tanks however, are a *** plague. They are not people trying to lear n their role. They're egoist scumbags that hinder their entire group's experience for the only sake of faster personal queue times. Those people should be hunted down by ZOS and prevented to negatively affect the rest of the community.

Finally, you are right, nothing really defines a ''tank'' build. But a taunt should be mandatory. There's no excuse for not slotting a taunt if you queue as a tank (I count frost heavy attack as a taunt, but only for that damned ''play your own way'' sake).

All this discussion, while being interesting, distances us from the real problem. The reason so many people queue as fake tank. It's that fact that dps queue are 30-60 mins long. Easy solution? Once you hit 200 cp, have the option to queue for 4 dps groups for normal dungeons. All the people only wanting to complete the daily for the extra exp, or the people wanting to lvl undaunted will remove themselves from the true queue, effectively reducing waiting times for dps in this queue.

On your third point, sure, there's a difference between someone that performs poorly or below another's expectations and someone who queues into a role under a false pretense. It is however a symptom of a larger issue, there arent enough real tanks. I'm not justifying their existence, I vote to kick them, but they werent created in a vacuum.

No, you didnt suggest that DD should be subject to reporting, I did. If you were an aspiring tank, would you really want to use the RDF if you were the only role that underwent scrutiny and subject to punishment sanctioned by ZoS? Would it be easier just to find some friends and tank without the constant threat of being reported? The only fair way to implement a system like that would be to do it across the board otherwise risk creating an even larger imbalance. Given the "healers dont feel needed? fine, we'll nerf their shields" reaction we just got, I'd be somewhat scared to see what any system looked like.

Many of the suggestions of how to deal with fake tanks are from DDs (sometimes healers) who want some sort of action taken against other DDs for pretending to be tanks while real tanks are the collateral damage in the solution. Splitting the queue options is one of a few that really doesnt have a negative impact on real tanks, but it doesnt address the underlying issue of why the tanks dont want to use RDF in the first place. Still, I wouldnt mind seeing it.

@Agenericname I get that. I was focusing more on the fake tank aspect. Much easier to look at a build or situation and say "That person is not tanking," or, "That person never intended to tank with that build," as opposed to "that DPS is insufficient." I don't know how you would go about punishing "fake DPS." You would hope the realization that they are not ready yet would be enough. Though if that was the case, this discussion would be unnecessary.

With that said, I think its easier to overcome a bad DPS than a fake tank. While both hurt a group, a fake tank in a vet DLC dungeon, or something like vet Banished Cells 2, will obliterate a group no matter how good the DPS is. A bad DPS will typically just make things last longer. Although, it can wipe a group in a place like Fang Lair or Bloodroot Forge.

Tough call. But as a biased player who is primarily DPS, I would rather fix the fake tank first.

Why everybody hate fake tank?

Operation Fortitude worked well for the Allies.

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Why everybody hate fake tank?

Operation Fortitude worked well for the Allies.

Haha.

Technically the use of the word tank was a deception from the start, so I suppose a fake tank is a real tank, in the Sherman sense of the word.

@El_Borracho Of the two (Low DPS and fake tanks) I have a lot more patience for low DPS DDs. I know that one is scamming right from the start, while the other is a big question mark. There's no question which group deserves to be removed from the queue, but they're probably married at this point as far as any long term solution goes. I don't see ZoS enacting any rule or system that targets a specific role without the others.

As a healer main, if I had to live with the risk of being reported every time I got blamed for someone dying because they refused to get out of the red, I'd "go galt" as well.

For the record, I don't think that low DPS is the only reason we don't have enough tanks, but it has been cited numerous times by tanks.

Call me elitist I don't care, but after leveling a tank to 50 through mostly daily randoms and some slight questing, I will never tank with a pug group again. The amount of insanely low DPS players out there is bewildering and it's not enjoyable spending 40m in vet Fungal Grotto 1.

Tried it and did some dungeon finder runs....
... DAMN I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU SO WELL!!! It's like playing in the casino ...
... and I am not taking about skill/dps or anything like that ... just the behaviour of the people in those groups!

I would recommend to find/get some ingame friends and use the grp finder tool as a full grp of 4ppl...
So you don't have to play with some very ... lets call them special? guys (and girls. being pc here).

If everyone is using this perfect tactic, they will slowly have to deal with their own kind and maybe... maybe in a parallel universe they will change to be a better soulless hero.

The "fun-tanks" are not the biggest problem in my point of view... It could be the tankiest tank in tankville ... if he/she is being very unfriendly .... god am i glad that there are oneshot mechanics

code65536 wrote: »

A good DD can carry a bad tank, but a good tank cannot carry a bad DD. )

You clearly have not seen the absurdity of my new stamplar pugstomper tank build.

Imo normals aren't a problem. The boss isn't usually alive long enough to really bother anybody while not being taunted.
Vet on the other hand is different. At least the dlc dungeons are anyway. It doesn't take a lot to put a taunt on. Or be a real tank instead for that matter.

O_LYKOS wrote: »

Imo normals aren't a problem. The boss isn't usually alive long enough to really bother anybody while not being taunted.
Vet on the other hand is different. At least the dlc dungeons are anyway. It doesn't take a lot to put a taunt on. Or be a real tank instead for that matter.

It will matter, if you have a group of low levels, especially when they have no or not much cp.
And i made the experience, that most of this fake tanks have no taunt and in many cases poor dps.
Combine this and you will have a really annoying dungeon run.

@Juju_beans and how exactly does kicking matter? The only people being punished are the DDs and the healer. If you kick the fake tank, he just instantly queues again and gets ruins a new party, since the game automatically removes your timeout penalty when you get kicked. But the people that queued fairly, those DDs that waited for 1h in group finder, they have to either 3-man it without the tank or wait another 1h for a new (possibly fake) tank.

Last day, I went in a dungeon with a random group and we had to deal with a fake tank on one of the hardest dungeon in the game. I told him to stop running around and to tank the boss and to stand in one place. How are we supposed to place dots on a running chicken ? His answer was epic : If I don't run, I will die !!! That's what he told