We are currently investigating issues some players are having logging into the European PC/Mac megaserver. We will update as new information becomes available.
FAKE TANKS in dungeon finder
-
Thraben✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@Thraben , it doesn't mean someone's a fake.
Point in case, weak/inexperienced is just that, bad at what they do. Fake, not even trying to fill the role.
There is a difference between "Overland build" and "DPS build".
"Fake" because many know they are not skilled appropriately for group content, ignore advice and expect to be carried anyway because their special solo snowflake bow skyrim wannabe build is more important to them than their commitment to the common goal.
Everyone would be angry at a healer when s/he's healing group content with a solo overland build, and would even call them a "fake healer" sometimes, and the very same standards can be expected from a DD.
Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs
DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.
DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.2 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Thraben , well it's hard to say what's happening in their heads. If you see weak DPS, can't tell - maybe they know, maybe they don't. If they ignore advice and stay silent, it can be they want to be carried, or maybe they don't know a word of English. I've seen CP300+ who until that point played the game, enjoyed, quested, and they just don't know how to deal the sort of damage a hardcore dungeon-goer is used to seeing. I've met combinations of that - non-English-speaking, oblivious of their low damage and with nobody around to explain that they're doing it wrong. And group finder doesn't tell them that there is - gasp! - some lower margin of damage they should be doing. So, maybe 'fake' if they know they shouldn't go there, but how would you tell if they do or not just by looking at their character? No way.
So, no established standards exist. You can do 25k and still be kicked for low damage by someone whose standards are higher (I once landed in half-finished dungeon - non-DLC vet one, and not the hardest - and was immediately interrogated by tank about how much do I hit, because tank and healer have just kicked both damage dealers for low damage), but you can clear vMoL with 25k average. And tank is a binary role - there are certain actions expected to fit it. Certain skills are marked as tank skills in game UI too, so there are hints around.Edited by John_Falstaff on October 26, 2018 11:18AM4 -
richo262✭✭✭✭✭
✭For Normal Dungeons - A requirement for a sword and board or frost staff to be on at least one of the bars. A taunt has to be present.
For Vet Dungeons - ZOS could keep an up to date list of sets that are tank related. To be a tank you must have at least one of those sets on.
The list is open to the player base to prove, on the forum, that they can create a functional tank with another set not on the list, if they can, it gets added. Also lock all vet dungeons until CP200. Going into a Vet with any less than CP160 is a waste of time for everybody.
Alternatively.
Have a Trial Finder. For normal trials only. That will soak up a lot of the DPS from the ques making 'fake tanking' obsolete because DPS Dungeons will be easier to find. For the DPS fake tanking random normal for the XP. Obviously don't have a 'Random Trial' function, but if playing a Trial, when your Random Dungeon XP is purple, it will reward that when completing the trial. Only once per day, and the Daily Dungeon XP reverts back to blue.
Essentially, find why the fake tanks exist, and provide them something else. I prefer plan b, less controlling and something everybody could use.4 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DoonerSeraph wrote: »I think open-ended group compositions should be allowed. 3 or 4 DDs. But they should know the risk of wiping and/or getting bad DD's from the queue, and by queueing that way they should know they cant complain about lack of this and that
This is the simplest solution to both fake queues and DD queue times. Who do we have to talk to at ZOS to get a toggle put on group finder?3 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@SpacemanSpiff1 , don't think they'll go for it; would amount to them openly admitting they're bad at designing content for normal group composition. "Oops, people, have option of running 3DDs, because we screwed up and designed a dungeon that is easier to do that way than with a healer."0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont really understand fake tanks, even in normal dungeons. For the low low price of slotting Inner Fire or one hand and shield and using it and some crowd control, I get a 30 dungeon queue, the boss never runs out of my AOEs, and I'm in control of the speed of the dungeon run because I'm actually playing like a tank while doing DPS. Everyone's happy.
What's not to like about that? All you have to do is slot a taunt and use it.3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think the frustration comes from the ones who don't slot a taunt and can't stay alive when they do.VaranisArano wrote: »I dont really understand fake tanks, even in normal dungeons. For the low low price of slotting Inner Fire or one hand and shield and using it and some crowd control, I get a 30 dungeon queue, the boss never runs out of my AOEs, and I'm in control of the speed of the dungeon run because I'm actually playing like a tank while doing DPS. Everyone's happy.
What's not to like about that? All you have to do is slot a taunt and use it.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."4 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If people are so terrified of being paired with "fake DPS" and use it as justification for queueing as fake tanks - then why not queue in tanking gear (since, well, queueing as fake implies some confidence that dungeon is doable with 3DDs) and start tanking. If damage is low, you're several clicks (if you have addons, might be just one) away from becoming a 50k DD. Voilas, you have 3DD run, much what would happen if you queued as fake. And if damage is good, all the better, you queued as tank, you keep on happily tanking. So no, "I queue as fake tank because there are fake DPS out there in the wild" isn't much of excuse - if you know group would do well without a tank at all, then you shouldn't be dying geared as one, and swap gear to your DPS when and if you need it.6 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I dont really understand fake tanks, even in normal dungeons. For the low low price of slotting Inner Fire or one hand and shield and using it and some crowd control, I get a 30 dungeon queue, the boss never runs out of my AOEs, and I'm in control of the speed of the dungeon run because I'm actually playing like a tank while doing DPS. Everyone's happy.
What's not to like about that? All you have to do is slot a taunt and use it.
I see such dps-tank 15-20k HP with taunt from time to time, their taunt ends as soon as there is boss or advanced mob who one-shots him through block. Usually happens in dlc normals..2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think the frustration comes from the ones who don't slot a taunt and can't stay alive when they do.VaranisArano wrote: »I dont really understand fake tanks, even in normal dungeons. For the low low price of slotting Inner Fire or one hand and shield and using it and some crowd control, I get a 30 dungeon queue, the boss never runs out of my AOEs, and I'm in control of the speed of the dungeon run because I'm actually playing like a tank while doing DPS. Everyone's happy.
What's not to like about that? All you have to do is slot a taunt and use it.
Well, yes. I get frustrated by those people too.
But I dont understand whats so hard about slotting a taunt and using it.
Its like a free pass to get a quick queue and no one will complain about the tank's sucky DPS as long as you taunt. You'll probably even survive as long as you sorta know mechanics. And everyone's happy.
I understand, intellectually, why people refuse to tank. I just don't get it, you know?4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I dont really understand fake tanks, even in normal dungeons. For the low low price of slotting Inner Fire or one hand and shield and using it and some crowd control, I get a 30 dungeon queue, the boss never runs out of my AOEs, and I'm in control of the speed of the dungeon run because I'm actually playing like a tank while doing DPS. Everyone's happy.
What's not to like about that? All you have to do is slot a taunt and use it.
I see such dps-tank 15-20k HP with taunt from time to time, their taunt ends as soon as there is boss or advanced mob who one-shots him through block. Usually happens in dlc normals..
That's fair, the DLC dungeons tend to be harder. When I ran a DPS/Tank, I made sure I could run the DLCs as a tank with friends before I queued for random groups. Still, its more a matter of knowing the mechanics and not standing in stupid the way you can with an actual tank.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I think that's more inexperienced or unknowledgeable player, not a fake one.spartaxoxo wrote: »There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.
The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.
Fake dps is one that slots and ice staff and constantly taunts for no reason and doesn't try to do anything else but take aggro, which I have seen.
I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.
Fake implies they know it's not real and have chosen to take that role, where's most just don't understand why what they do isn't correct.
They would at least be button mashing random buttons if they did not know.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You've got to consider the new Psijic tree skill, Imbue Weapon (and it's morphs) however - Link which is used by making light attacks and actually does lot of dps. So in that case using light attacks only would definitely not be a fake dps.spartaxoxo wrote: »I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.
You cast that skill. It isn't a passive.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I think that's more inexperienced or unknowledgeable player, not a fake one.spartaxoxo wrote: »There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.
The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.
Fake dps is one that slots and ice staff and constantly taunts for no reason and doesn't try to do anything else but take aggro, which I have seen.
I also think people who light attack only are fake dps, because they know full well that they should be using skills. It's one thing to have a bad or no rotation, it's another to not have any skill usage at all.
Fake implies they know it's not real and have chosen to take that role, where's most just don't understand why what they do isn't correct.
They would at least be button mashing random buttons if they did not know.
You trying to tell me a video game player in an MMO doesn't know to press buttons to do things? Nah. Don't buy it.
These are people queing so they can get their keys or their random rewards, and doing the bare minimum not to get an afk kick. They know better.
I don't even consider button mashing with no rhyme or reason to anything and then heavy attacking constantly when you run out of resources to be fake, even though that results in atrocious dps.
Its deliberately never pressing any skill button that gets me mad.
Edited by spartaxoxo on October 26, 2018 1:06PM2 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@SpacemanSpiff1 , don't think they'll go for it; would amount to them openly admitting they're bad at designing content for normal group composition. "Oops, people, have option of running 3DDs, because we screwed up and designed a dungeon that is easier to do that way than with a healer."
Dunno if they should see it that way. People who 4 DD a normal dungeon are usually much above the level of the "intended audience" of normal dungeons. Now, if non-exceptional people starts doing 4 DD DLC vet runs, then maybe they should be worried about content design. But for people who are either lower levelled or inexperienced, having a tank and healer on a normal dungeon is good and comfortable for learning.
I would say add the option of 3 and 4 DD's, are you experienced and geared enough to do it? Sure, go ahead. Better than skip queue as a tank and rushing over some inexperienced people who may end up salty about dungeons and not coming again
1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@DoonerSeraph , mm-m, hard to say: I think it's not without implications too. That would also be an unpleasant declaration that they failed to scale content for high-level people and created "overpowered caste" - also nothing for content designers to be proud of. General idea is to make harmonious cooperation of all roles and for all skill levels, after all, roles must enhance one another. And just before Murkmire, I get that in guild chat (forgot name of vet DLC dungeon): "Any healer for v<dungeon> nodeath run?" - and response: "From experience, take 3 DDs. Better magblades." It's okay if people run 3DD as a challenge, but when they run 3DD because it's easier... I think it's a little awkward, to make it official. ^^1 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@DoonerSeraph , mm-m, hard to say: I think it's not without implications too. That would also be an unpleasant declaration that they failed to scale content for high-level people and created "overpowered caste" - also nothing for content designers to be proud of. General idea is to make harmonious cooperation of all roles and for all skill levels, after all, roles must enhance one another. And just before Murkmire, I get that in guild chat (forgot name of vet DLC dungeon): "Any healer for v<dungeon> nodeath run?" - and response: "From experience, take 3 DDs. Better magblades." It's okay if people run 3DD as a challenge, but when they run 3DD because it's easier... I think it's a little awkward, to make it official. ^^
I understand where you are coming from. However my opinion is that content gets older, guides are done, power creep is introduced and it naturally becomes easier.
I dont know what kind of player you guild consists of, but before Murkmire, 3 magblades had extremely strong cross-healing due to funnel and maybe refreshing path. Now it was taken down a notch, so your guildie recommendation may have changed.
You are right when you say that a traditional group composition should have a easier time clearing content, but I really see no reason.to restrain people from trying unorthodox role combinations.
To me, it looks like Murkmire actively nerfa those 3 DD runs that excluded healers, and it looks fully intentional.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.
The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.
There ARE fake dps. If they can't do more damage than non-DD, they aren't fulfilling the role of dps. They are just a body. Just like a stam NB who only uses vigor to self heal isn't a healer, even though his self-heal heals others. Even the fake tank gets aggro sometimes. Everyone gets aggro at times, just as everyone does damage. The only thing that not everyone does is heal others.
The difference is that fake dps usually don't know what they are doing or can't be bothered, while fake tanks are abusing the system to skip lines and refusing to try to tank.
While I am an actual tank, I wonder if people think that double the wait for a group is a better option than a fake tank in normal. The OP is talking about vet, and the quality of tank is probably a lot better there. But for normal, what would queues be like if all those fake tanks were removed from the tank list and added to the dps list?
The reality is that so much of the questing content is annoying as a tank and much more fun as a DDs. Running through a public dungeon, I am flying past all the trash mobs instead to avoid a drawn out fight while the DDs are just melting the mobs in seconds. When I finally engage a boss in the public dungeon, I have 25 mobs attacking me until I hit them and they run bag to their spawn area.3 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Well, it could be a magsorc tank with 60k hp and Frost Staff - I have such magsorc tank and love it, also using Lightning Form for the extra resistance and bone shield for group shielding. Unless OP give more details we can assume anythingJohn_Falstaff wrote: »@Gargath, OP mentioned Lightning Form, so it's probably a magsorc. We can of course assume that it was a magsorc spec'd for - what, shield tanking? - but it's not awfully likely. Either way, OP can elaborate.
. PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."6 -
LiquidSchwartz✭✭✭✭✭I do wgt with 4 dps cuz dungeons are a joke for the most part
May the Schwartz be with you.EP/XB1/NA0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭if players and zos are going to cling desperately to the current system of dps then i would say this is all you have to look forward to. Long queues and fake tanks among other things. Now fight amongst yourselves and dont dare target the dps system that must remain to keep parses high.
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard3 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's an idea to make people become more aware of them needing to stick to their chosen roles. If someone gets kicked because he wasn't helpful to the group in their role, put them into a special zone where you have to pass certain dps / heal / tank choices (selectable) presented by a NPC, not able to leave the zone until they pass that test. If they don't pass the test, and, say, 5 minutes passed, allow them be ported out again, but let that kind of thing happen each time the above situation occurs.
That should annoy people quickly enough, who queue in faking their role, so they would start to think twice before repeating their behaviour, or stop queuing in. Either way, it would be a win for healthier random groups.
You want to lock my eleven year old daughter in an instance because she was poor DPS in normal fungal grotto 1 with me?
I’m against that idea.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest8 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe at the end of each dungeon you get a 30 second window to rate other players 1-5 stars based on how enjoyable it was to group with them. No penalties, but maintaining a higher rating modifies the random dungeon rewards such that problem players are missing rewards.
I can think of exploits but I’m sure the idea could be tweaked. Maybe each person can only give that person one rating and a choice to change it each run. So friends couldn’t artificially pass the results. And it would only impact rand pug dungeons.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Greysson✭✭✭✭Today i had a fake tank with no taunt, who was blaming the bow DD for not standing still when he had aggro ... my kind of humor.4 -
Gatviper✭✭✭✭
You would accept the vote to kick your daughter from that dungeon? If you take your daughter to a dungeon through group finder though, instead of playing with people who know each other, and you know she's a poor dps, I think it's perfectly valid if people get upset with her dps.BejaProphet wrote: »You want to lock my eleven year old daughter in an instance because she was poor DPS in normal fungal grotto 1 with me?
I’m against that idea.Life is a ride, like days in a train, cities rush by, like ghosts in the night.
The rhythm of wheels, time fades away, stations of a journey, destination unknown.6 -
Meld777✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno I'm sure many would appreciate a short feedback on this from ZOS, like, "We acknowledge the fake tank problem and are thinking about it" or "At this time, we don't consider this an issue"Maelstrom Arena Champion | Undaunted | Fighters Guild Victor
Level 50 Magicka NB | CP160+
nAA | vCoH1 HM | nSO | nCoA2 | nDSA | nMA | vVoM
PC EU6 -
LegendaryArcher✭✭✭✭Same thing today, queued for random vet, got into vSP. We get to the first boss. He doesn't want to slot a taunt because "just burn". Gets 1-shot by the melee boss, complains about "low dps" and "*** healing". Asks us to kick him, so he doesn't have to suffer the 5 minutes penalty that is left to queue again.
We were all full CP and could have easily done it with a real tank, but we didn't want to wait for another hour for a new tank, so we had to disband, while the fake tank instantly went onto ruin another party. This has to stop!PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates9 -
Shadow_Viper_vX✭✭✭✭✭There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.
The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.
Of course it does. They should add an "other" option to the group finder so that people who get out-dpsed by a healer or a tank can apply for the right role.
I'm pugging very regularly as a tank/ healer, and most pug "DPS" players hardly reach 10k in boss fights.
Or you could try losing the toxic/elitist attitude...
That'd probably be the most helpful
2 -
Salvas_Aren✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »There is no such thing as fake dps. There are bad dps, but no fake dps.
The term fake dps seems to be thrown around as some sort of justification for being a fake tank. Yet such a thing simply doesn’t exist.
Of course it does. They should add an "other" option to the group finder so that people who get out-dpsed by a healer or a tank can apply for the right role.
I'm pugging very regularly as a tank/ healer, and most pug "DPS" players hardly reach 10k in boss fights.
Or you could try losing the toxic/elitist attitude...
That'd probably be the most helpful
If you pug with a DD who deals 2k of DPS and answers when asked about it *shut up its my first char b...*, who is the toxic one?
Problem is, the fake DPSes refuse to L2P.3
This discussion has been closed.