Royaji wrote: »

This is probably the pinnacle of learn2tank issues I've ever seen.

"So yeah, the whole point of tanking in this game is too watch the animations. Ehhh, too difficult, can we remove it?"

If the animations were easier to watch for it wouldn't be an issue.

However, that is not always the case as they are often obscured or hidden . And if it so easy, I wonder why so many tanks I play with frequently miss blocks and die?

I'm glad you're such an awesome player who never has issues with this. But you're not the only one who plays this game. No one is saying you should be forced to make use of this suggestion if you are above it.

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

What’s keeping you from having the proposed buff up 24/7 and never have to block again? Especially “casual” tanking isn’t exactly hard. Anything outside the DLC dungeons doesn’t even need a tank. You won’t be able to do harder content if you didn’t learn the ropes. What’s next? A buff that automatically light attack weaves for the next 6 seconds to make playing DD more user friendly?

Nothing really. This buff would allow players to block heavy attacks without having to watch for animations. That's the point of it.

And what ropes would a tank need to learn due to this change? Most MMORPGs have passive blocking anyway. This isn't exactly a radical change.

IF you want more people to play as tanks, this is a change that might make that happen. Because failing to see a 1 second animation = death is an element of the tank game play that is likely going to scare off a lot of players. As I mentioned before, that is the most common problem I see with new tanks trying to break into harder dungeons. They miss blocks, and frankly I can understand why.

Quite simply this will not be added. Zos will never add something that will do most of the tanking for us. There is little point to playing the game at that point.

This MMORPG is not about passive defenses and Zos just removed the only real passive defense in the game when they removed the dodge chance from Evasion.

You explained above that it is the Maw of the Inferno set spawn that is the issue. Zos will likely look at that to see if it behaves as you suggest. If that is the case and they adjust it then the problem is solved based on what you have explained.

Remember, just ask the sorcs to place their Atros just slightly to the side of the boss.

It's not just that set. As I told you, there are other sets that behave in the same exact fashion, such as the one that spawns the hunger.

And yes, the sorcerer summon can be a pain in this regard as well. There are a lot of instances where it is an issue. That was the point.

And what I am suggesting here hardly lets the game do the tanking for you. That's an absurd exaggeration. As mentioned: most MMORPGs actually have passive blocking. So I guess everyone who plays a tank on nearly every other MMO in existence is just having the game tank things for them. It's absurd.

I asked you to demonstrate and you chose to explain. I even pointed out how Zos would look at the information yet it appears that explanation was insufficient.

1. Zos will not be adding the skill you are suggesting. It goes against everything they have done with tanking since the game launched.
2. If you cannot bother to explain what is challenging you with seeing the boss heavy attacks so you know when to block Zos cannot even try to fix it.

It really is that simple.

Oh, and I already solved the Sorc atro issue. Just ask them to place the atro slightly to the side of the boss. It will still be right next to the boss. It is upon you to communicate with your team.

You do not speak for ZoS.

So you're right, it is rather simple.

And I've already explained it to you several times. All I can suggest is go back and reread instead of fussing at me to repeat myself again.

Royaji wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

This is probably the pinnacle of learn2tank issues I've ever seen.

"So yeah, the whole point of tanking in this game is too watch the animations. Ehhh, too difficult, can we remove it?"

If the animations were easier to watch for it wouldn't be an issue.

However, that is not the case as they are often obscured or hidden . And if it so easy, I wonder why so many tanks I play with frequently miss blocks and die.

I'm glad you're such an awesome player who never has issues with this. But you're not the only one who plays this game. No one is saying you should be forced to make use of this suggestion if you are above it.

Yep, it's called learn to play. This is a non-issue. There are those giant golden lines too if you didn't notice.

And you make it sound like Maw is the most meta set in the game. I can't remember the last time I've seen it anywhere.

I never said anything about Maw being the most meta set in the game. So that's a ridiculous interpretation of my comments. But be glad you haven't seen anyone use it anywhere. It's annoying as hell to play with, so you're lucky in that regard. I literally spend the whole run just trying to position my character so I can see what I'm trying to fight.

In any case: telling people to L2P is not going to make more players take up tanking. Giving them tools to help make tanking easier for them might though. And that's my goal here. Not everyone can be as awesome and "meta" as you.

idk wrote: »

I am done with this thread.

Thank the Gods. That's the best thing I have read from you yet. Because all you do is ignore 75% of everything I post and then act like I never said it.

idk wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I am done with this thread.

Thank the Gods. That's the best thing I have read from you yet. Because all you do is ignore 75% of everything I post and then act like I never said it.

This was worthy of one more post because this is funny. LOL.

Well I'm glad you find the truth so amusing. ^^

I mention the set that calls the Hunger . I mention the trees in Falkearth that frequently get tanks killed against Minotaurs. I mention the copious amounts of spell effects which - while maybe not completely covering the animation - can certainly make it more difficult to see with bright lights and flame burning all over the place. I mention the sorcerer's summon. I mention lag, which can cause animations to skip at times. I give you numerous examples... yet you continue to pretend the only thing I've ever mentioned is the maw set.

Is this the end of the world? No. It's more of a nuisance really, at least for me personally. Though I see tanks frequently struggle with this aspect of tanking and believe it wards off a lot of players. So giving players access to an active ability that would allow them to block heavy attacks without having to react instantly to animations might help make tanking more popular. Or maybe it wouldn't. Who knows.

But shame on me for daring to try and come up with ideas to help make tanking more accessible and enjoyable for more players. Anyone who dares to suggest a skill that allows you to passively block something (never mind that is the way it works on every other MMORPG) needs to just stfu and learn to play. lol

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

This is probably the pinnacle of learn2tank issues I've ever seen.

"So yeah, the whole point of tanking in this game is too watch the animations. Ehhh, too difficult, can we remove it?"

If the animations were easier to watch for it wouldn't be an issue.

However, that is not the case as they are often obscured or hidden . And if it so easy, I wonder why so many tanks I play with frequently miss blocks and die.

I'm glad you're such an awesome player who never has issues with this. But you're not the only one who plays this game. No one is saying you should be forced to make use of this suggestion if you are above it.

Yep, it's called learn to play. This is a non-issue. There are those giant golden lines too if you didn't notice.

And you make it sound like Maw is the most meta set in the game. I can't remember the last time I've seen it anywhere.

Thanks for making my point in the above post.

And for someone who was supposedly done with this thread, you sure do have a strange way of being done with something I have to say.

How many times are you going to have to say or quote someone saying "L2P" before you get it out of your system?

Feanor wrote: »

I’m not a pro tank. But as I said, I’d find your suggestion incredibly boring. And let’s not kid ourselves - skills like these will become mandatory because group pressure will make sure of it. The result is a drastically dumbed down tanking experience.

Why would it be mandatory? If it's so easy to watch for animations and block as it is, where is the pressure?

I thought this was a non issue.

And considering the rarity of tanks on this game at the moment, their current incarnation must not be terribly exciting to play for most players anyway.

Besides, and as I've mentioned before frequently, passive blocking is how it works on most MMORPGs. Though this would be an active buff you just preempt heavy attacks with. It's really not that different from how spell shields work on this game to be honest.

But at least you offered up a reasonable criticism - as it would make tanking less reflex-driven which could amount to less fun for some players. So thanks for not dumbing down the conversation with the usual L2P garbage. It's a fair point you make.

I don't like the idea of autoblock, skill slotted or otherwise. Timing and resource management are two of the key factors in being a good tank.

I do understand some of the frustration sourced from a couple different things that could be improved:

1. Poor camera views make it hard to watch your target and find adds. Anyone who's played for a reasonable period of time has had the BS happen where your camera decides to park behind the ivy or moss the level designers seem to adore. Or if you're against the wall and you find yourself stuck looking up the boss's skirt. You can still hold your own, but it essentially forces first person.
   
   Visually (aesthetics) it's fine, in combat, it should cease rendering within a certain distance. Same for bookshelves, walls, rocks, or other assorted things that can cause issue. It's a LoS check (camera to add), and it's not fixed by auto-zooming in either. If I wanted to be in first person, I would be already.
   
   You don't always have the luxury of fighting in the open and as a tank, you're constantly having to scan 360 degrees - you should be able to see while doing so. If they wanted to temporarily obscure vision during a knockback, etc, that would be fine.
   
2. Additional group effects. In the fights that matter, all visual hell is already breaking lose, so having these turned on just adds even more congestion. Having these turned off means you're not going to be able to tell where your group just dropped that Ele Rage you need to keep everything in the middle of.
3. A distant but still valid third: Color of positive/negative effects, including tertiary effects. I realize you can change these to an extent, but there should be a couple of presets. I've yet to find a combo that will work in all environments, so a quick change would suffice in these scenarios. (Light theme/Dark theme would probably suffice.)
   
   I'd further like the outline, or in some cases, the entire add (if ethereal) to change color as well. A Prime example of this are vAA Axes. Regardless what your custom colors are set to, they're still going to be the translucent light magenta, often making it hard to target and determine depth/distance.
4. A number four which is partially due to a really good monitor and video card, accurate gamma setting, and a dark room: The dark extremes in live-or-die scenarios and the white-out's can be a bit much. Unless the full intention is truly be blinded (the player, not the character), some of those could get dialed back a bit (without having to cheese the gamma settings.)

With the visual issues fixed, then it could be down to tank reaction, the way it should be.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I don't like the idea of autoblock, skill slotted or otherwise. Timing and resource management are two of the key factors in being a good tank.

I do understand some of the frustration sourced from a couple different things that could be improved:

1. Poor camera views make it hard to watch your target and find adds. Anyone who's played for a reasonable period of time has had the BS happen where your camera decides to park behind the ivy or moss the level designers seem to adore. Or if you're against the wall and you find yourself stuck looking up the boss's skirt. You can still hold your own, but it essentially forces first person.
   
   Visually (aesthetics) it's fine, in combat, it should cease rendering within a certain distance. Same for bookshelves, walls, rocks, or other assorted things that can cause issue. It's a LoS check (camera to add), and it's not fixed by auto-zooming in either. If I wanted to be in first person, I would be already.
   
   You don't always have the luxury of fighting in the open and as a tank, you're constantly having to scan 360 degrees - you should be able to see while doing so. If they wanted to temporarily obscure vision during a knockback, etc, that would be fine.
   
2. Additional group effects. In the fights that matter, all visual hell is already breaking lose, so having these turned on just adds even more congestion. Having these turned off means you're not going to be able to tell where your group just dropped that Ele Rage you need to keep everything in the middle of.
3. A distant but still valid third: Color of positive/negative effects, including tertiary effects. I realize you can change these to an extent, but there should be a couple of presets. I've yet to find a combo that will work in all environments, so a quick change would suffice in these scenarios. (Light theme/Dark theme would probably suffice.)
   
   I'd further like the outline, or in some cases, the entire add (if ethereal) to change color as well. A Prime example of this are vAA Axes. Regardless what your custom colors are set to, they're still going to be the translucent light magenta, often making it hard to target and determine depth/distance.
4. A number four which is partially due to a really good monitor and video card, accurate gamma setting, and a dark room: The dark extremes in live-or-die scenarios and the white-out's can be a bit much. Unless the full intention is truly be blinded (the player, not the character), some of those could get dialed back a bit (without having to cheese the gamma settings.)

With the visual issues fixed, then it could be down to tank reaction, the way it should be.

You have a lot of good suggestions in there. Honestly, if they would just fix the visual effects I personally would be content. I actually don't mind having to block so long as I can clearly see the damn thing.

But I do still believe the developers should consider something along the lines of what I'm suggesting here. Tank shortages seem to becoming more and more of a problem every day. So there is obviously something about playing as a tank that turns off a lot of players. And in my experiences, this is one of things. I've seen many a tank quit out of frustration and abandon a dungeon because he/she kept missing blocks and getting killed.

NuarBlack wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Wait......what!?! You pc players have a friggen hand holding device telling you when to block!?! I am not believing this....

Yes. And I suspect many of the tanks being dismissive of this issue use this addon as well.

Because the problem has never been about timing. It's about being able to see the animation so you know when to block, which isn't always possible. An alert system would solve the problem (so the addon probably is an effective solution). But I would prefer a built in mechanic that doesn't rely on addons.

That's one of the reasons I refuse to use addons actually. Because it leads to the developers becoming apathetic in regards to fixing problems, instead relying on addons to do it for them.

Wouldn't the better solution be to fix the in game's visual que systems so they are easier to see coming? It's like you identify the problem then ignore it for a screwy work around bandaid fix. ESO is deliberately a reactive mmo with more active mitigation compared to others so your idea goes against that.

People are not avoiding tanking cause it's too hard, it's cause it is too boring in many cases, at least in most people's minds relative to dpsing. Most the time you can blow block mechanics and still survive until dlc vet content, at which point you should be good at tanking.

Fixing the game's visual queue system would certainly be an improvement and largely content me personally. But I don't understand why people think my suggestion is so "screwy". As I pointed out earlier, it basically functions as a shield spell already does on this game - only it focuses on blocking heavy attacks rather than all incoming damage after it's used. It's just a preemptive block ability. That's all it basically is. It would also give tanks an impressive advantage when it comes to blocking on this game and help set them apart from other classes.

I understand it goes against the game's intended reflex-driven blocking mechanics in respect to watching for animations and then hitting block. But if this system is supposedly so fun why then do so few people play tanks? That seems to me a contradiction to the popular argument that this is what makes tanking so fun and interesting. It obviously doesn't.

I just got done attempting a Bloodroot forge on Vet. The tank wasn't half bad. He had a good build and was great at observing the field of battle and dealing with "mechanics". But he kept missing the occasional block on the last boss which would result in him going splat. This would often happen toward the end of the fight with multiple adds up making it difficult to raise him and a wipe would ensue. Eventually the tank just left the dungeon out of frustration and the run was effectively dead because it takes forever to replace a tank. This sort of thing happens frequently. It's not an isolated incident.

I'm going to try and explain my position on this. Usually what makes tanking appealing for people is their defenses and their ability to survive huge amounts of damage other characters can't. On this game, it's actually feels the opposite. Due to the way the blocking system is implemented tanks are a second away from instant death if they miss a single animation. So when players tank on this game they are likely going to feel more on the edge of death than anyone else. And this just isn't the case on powerful end bosses. Even trash pulls can feel this way with Minotaurs, Werewolves etc. So in a deranged sort of way when playing as a tank on this game you actually end up feeling more fragile than if you were playing as a healer or a damage-dealing class. And aside from this, there is clearly a lot of players who have problems with this. I see it all the time . So whether it is a "L2P" problem or not - it's clearly an aspect of tanking many players struggle with.

This is going to be the last post I write in this thread because I"m mostly just repeating myself and I"m not going to convince any of you otherwise. But I really do believe this is a significant issue the developers should take note of. I believe their blocking mechanics as it relates to tanking on this game is clunky and overly punishing. I also believe this is a significant reason more people don't play tanks. It was an interesting attempt, but ultimately a failure in my opinion. Because I don't believe it makes tanking especially more fun (and the lack of people who play tanks I believe is evidence to that effect). It just ends up turning off more people actually. Tanks are more scarce on this game than on any other MMO I have ever played. And that is saying something. Ask yourself: what is the one area where this game drastically differs from other MMO's when it comes to tanking? Yep, the blocking mechanics (many older MMO's didn't have AoE taunting either, FF XI etc.). And tanks who find it so enjoyable to watch for animations to block can continue to do so by simply not slotting the ability. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Anyway: I think this rather long-winded post sums up everything I could hope to say on this topic. So I"ll end it here. It was just an idea I had based on my experiences in-game and watching what frustrates other tanks and causes them to quit, and I hope the developers consider it.

Peace out. ^^

You don't see as many tanks because there aren't as many that can do it well.

Half the content doesn't really require an active one, the other have almost demands top end. Like the rest of the game, there is no middle ground.


The good ones make it look easy, just as the good DPS and good healers do the same. For the non-trivial content, making it seem easy and having it be easy are two very different things.

On the trivial content (which will vary based on your group), healer and tanks are not as required as they once were. The fault of this lays with the Devs (not the poor decisions of late, but with not having the content either retire or require necessary skills from all three roles.)

[/quote]
This isn't a L2P issue. It's a flawed life and death mechanic that relies too heavily on players having to watch for small and often quick animations which are obscured or outright obstructed. And missing a single one can mean instant death and possibly a party wipe.
[/quote]

I see where you're coming from but it kinda is a L2P issue or at least to not be lazy issue. yeah sometimes everyone misses mechanics and some are harder to see than others. but that's kinda the point, those are the mechanics we are supposed to learn and watch for. we have done it for every bit of content so far. i get that sometimes u cant see them but if we got them every time they wouldn't really be mechanics. and once you have seen a mechanic its pretty damn easy to know what you're looking for.

i think you would be more successful suggesting better visibility and camera clipping fixes (?? sound right lol?) so when a tree is in your camera view but your body is in front of it it becomes transparent. you would still have a mob issue once in a while. but those instances are so rare that you CANT figure out when to block that they really don't matter, and id moreso blame the player for not realizing they need to shift their mouse a centimeter.