In every update that balances combat we have a such negative feedback at forum like this?

Turelus · October 2018

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

usmguy1234 · October 2018

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Tandor · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Banned from the game or banned from discord? Reasons given? Perhaps the language used and temper tantrums on discord? Like @Turelus has said, ZOS tend to be open to critical discussion, but not open to people venting/ranting/being toxic.

Ermiq · October 2018

In my opinion, it always have been like this.
The same crying rebel happened with Morrowind's sustain changes, people said ZOS ruined the game and this is the worst changing ever, and Warden is Pay2Win, and so on.
Then the same happened with Dragon Bones which brought a good amount of bugs and broken stuff. People were saying it's the worst patch ever.
Today we have both: gameplay changes and bugs. So, yeah, it might be one of the worst patches in terms of forum feedback and negativity.
But... If you look at it from another point of view, than you could realize that it's nothing special actually. This game had a lot of changes, some of them were not understandable at all, while others were very good and highly requested. It happens with every MMO. I did quit some MMOs because I thought they turned into a garbage while other players had stay and moreover new players came to those games.

THE_BIG_BOSS · October 2018

There wasnt Balance at all.

Bad got worse and OP got totally crazy broken.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2018

I'm still trying to remember the patch that balanced combat...

Chicharron · October 2018

the forums are a very small percentage, and only the so-called "hardcore" cry, they do it in every big update.

They are like the .1% are few but very loud.

qbit · October 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

I am in 3 trials guilds and we farmed most vet and hm content.

As of today, 2 of these 3 guilds have lost 70% of their players. In one guild's Discord they announced the guild is now considered inactive and soon disbanding. In the second, since Nerfmire first PTS we haven't done one single trial and as of today 8 of the trials guys have quit the game.

In my 3rd guild, which is established since release, we were progressing into hm vMOL, vAS+2 and vCR+3.
Now we are back to struggling to put together enough people to do vHRC.

Do you understand what does this means to an heavy trials player like me, in terms of lost friends, lost achievements, lost WEEKS in attempts that now will lead to nowhere?

I HATE NERFMIRE WITH ALL MY HEART!

Successful patch is successful. New game coming out very soon. Don’t forget who ZOS works for.

Turelus · October 2018

Tandor wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Banned from the game or banned from discord? Reasons given? Perhaps the language used and temper tantrums on discord? Like Turelus has said, ZOS tend to be open to critical discussion, but not open to people venting/ranting/being toxic.

@Tandor Both. I believe from Discord (not sure on details regarding this) and at least a couple of prominent forums posters did get bans (maybe just suspensions) from the forums during the first week.
Of the forums ones I noticed they were generally from people who went a step too far in expressing their dislike, or just spammed up every thread with unconstructive posts.

Tandor · October 2018

Turelus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Banned from the game or banned from discord? Reasons given? Perhaps the language used and temper tantrums on discord? Like Turelus has said, ZOS tend to be open to critical discussion, but not open to people venting/ranting/being toxic.

@Tandor Both. I believe from Discord (not sure on details regarding this) and at least a couple of prominent forums posters did get bans (maybe just suspensions) from the forums during the first week.
Of the forums ones I noticed they were generally from people who went a step too far in expressing their dislike, or just spammed up every thread with unconstructive posts.

Thanks for the clarification. Not banned from the game, then.

"Ban" is a greatly misused word in my view, it almost always refers to "suspension".

GreenHere · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

For real...

The correct answer to, "Hey guys, what if we just added a cast time to shields?" is:

"What? Are you some kind of idiot?! Have you even played this game? You know what -- pack up your stuff, you're fired."

Seriously lost almost all faith in the combat team due to this, and other recent (and obviously dumb) changes.

Aesthier · October 2018

Seriously.

I don't see the number of complaints this patch that I have on other patches and certainly not as many as on other DLC releases on "these" forums.

Perhaps that is because people are beginning to realize that patches like this are a normal thing from ZoS, perhaps it is because as people have left the game there remain fewer to complain, perhaps it is because fewer players are affected overall. I just don't know.

Does it mean I like this patch? No, I can't say I have enjoyed any patches other than perhaps one Tamriel or a few here an there that I have forgotten about.

However, at least in this patch I can still connect to the game or am not kicked out every time I get in.

So no I am not buying into the "this is the worst patch evah" ideology.

qbit · October 2018

Got to admit the ban hammer doesn’t seem as prevalent on the forums. I used to get warned almost daily and now seem to not be getting warned anymore. I fully expected a forum ban by now. 🤷‍♂️

Now watch it happen because I discuss moderation here. .. lol

Lysette · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Every patch for like 2 years has made the game feel worse for me.

I can't remember the last patch i was excited for.

Well, I guess that is because you follow the new meta every time - and if this is the "best build", there is a nearly 100% chance, that you will be disappointed by any changes - simply because the new meta is not your old build. So this is just a consequence of your choices made and not really ZOS fault.

Edit: Not sure if I put my point forward correctly - if you always go for the "best build" after every new patch - and a patch's goal is to break this meta and make it more balanced, then any change will feel to you as being worse. But this is due to you following the meta - and there is no way around it, for as long as you do it like that.

idk · October 2018

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Been here almost 4 years and this is the worst DLC I can remember.

This was probably one of the top 3 updates that have had negative impacts on the game.

1.6.5 added the champion system. Many players were used to being able to change their role with great ease and CP ended that. We were made weaker to allow CP to maker us stronger. After this update many of the top PvP groups that still remained left. Granted, some remained and ESO still has some still in game, but far less than we once had.

While many players did leave after this update. Much was to do with Zos has ceased developing new content for PC and nothing was expected until the end of the year.

Morrowind's heavy handed sustain changes, and the resulting HA builds, were not welcome by many.

Then this one. How this one compares will require some time to see. I expect over the years the bonuses Zos pays out have gotten much smaller.

Kadoin · October 2018

ryudan91 wrote: »

Or this "ZergHate" about Nerfmire is kinda new, like a new record of number of people unsatisfied with changes reporting it here at forum?

It's a result of ZOS continuing to turn off EZ mode, yet leave mechanics that make the game awful to play and miss addressing the real bugs in the game. ZOS also continues to target player classes instead of CP.

To see how ridiculous some of these class changes over time have been and still are, if its possible, create a new character and start at lvl 1 and put no CP. Only use gear from a dungeon. Do not use any food or assistance from anyone else and/or your own acct. You will see how fun it is when you get to lvl 45 and get put in DLC dungeons. You literally will run into situations where no amount of skill can help you out of them or survive.

The power of some of these classes has been stripped so much, it's beyond a pain to play them; it's torture. I really question the direction the game is going, but I have to admit it's been fun playing the game without max CP on another server...

EDIT: I can understand the general lack of enthusiasm over this patch and the hate.

Vahrokh · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Yeah!
And not just on Discord, but also on the forums.
I was one of them! And now we see the results of this "update".

GrigorijMalahevich · October 2018

Well most of moderators in discord are just a bunch of bad players and have no place to be there. Funny that magsorc discord has more _other classes_ that actual magsorcs in them. Bad player is bad.

How many players have to quit the game for developers to “sack” the combat team?

Lysette · October 2018

You could all quit and it wouldn't make a difference (because the PvP crowd is small compared to the total users IMO) - and eventually we would get a PvE Cyrrodil then.

Trinity_Is_My_Name · October 2018

jcm2606 wrote: »

While salt has been excreted on the forums plenty of times before, Murkmire delivered an avalanche of salt, all of it warranted. This really is the straw that broke the camel's back for many players.

Indeed it is. My guild is full of ghosts now. Ghosts of dungeons past, Trials, VDSA and hundreds of runs through DLC Vet dungeons. Now myself and one other person log on a few times a day. The rest? Just gone.

My long time Gaming buddy who is the Founder of his PVP Guild contacted me yesterday to say he is leaving ESO forever. He is now playing BDO. He is one of many I know that are just sick of all the bugs introduced, fixes to these bugs that take months and sometimes years (Arcane Well fixed yet? Hmm...nope) and the complete wrecking of builds he spent hundreds of hours perfecting for PVP. Same for the "balance" that we will never see in this game. It's not possible.

Me, I have had enough as well and am minimizing my time in ESO these days. I'm holding out hope that this once fantastic game can come back at least a little to it's former self. My guess is when thousands of Players cancel their subscriptions only then will ZOS begin to wonder....."Why did they leave?"

Wreuntzylla · October 2018

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Been here almost 4 years and this is the worst DLC I can remember. Bugs, bugs, bugs. So many things broken. Along with the bugs are nerfs no one asked for yet were crammed down our throats in the name of "balance". Well, the "balance" will never happen in this game when every DLC introduces a ton of new gear sets with more proc meta builds soon to follow.

But to answer your query yes, I think this is a new record for us, the people that play this game, to complain to ZOS about the massive bugs introduced. If you want to see the bugs please peruse the Forum. There are literally dozens of things broken by this DLC.

I
I think this is the first content that we did not get a preview of before or shortly after release. At one point in time they let go a number of long time devs/coders. It could be that this is the first content since release that they are coding from the ground up.

carlos424 · October 2018

Lysette wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Every patch for like 2 years has made the game feel worse for me.

I can't remember the last patch i was excited for.

Well, I guess that is because you follow the new meta every time - and if this is the "best build", there is a nearly 100% chance, that you will be disappointed by any changes - simply because the new meta is not your old build. So this is just a consequence of your choices made and not really ZOS fault.

Edit: Not sure if I put my point forward correctly - if you always go for the "best build" after every new patch - and a patch's goal is to break this meta and make it more balanced, then any change will feel to you as being worse. But this is due to you following the meta - and there is no way around it, for as long as you do it like that.

Everybody wants to be as good as they can, dont you think? I love grinding new gear sets, maybe changing around my rotation a bit for more damage. Summerset was great. Had a great time grinding new gear sets in Cloudrest, as well as some old sets which became relevant again, seeing which pairs worked best together, etc. But all that was basically wasted time. Now I have to build a resistance set, increase health, etc (as a magicka character) just to have some survivability. Thats all well and good, except that you sacrifice damage. And even that would be fine, but it doesnt affect everybody. Most stam get to go about their business as if nothing really changed, maybe a little tweak here and there. So the rich get richer.
Most patches make changes to damage or healing skills. People complain that a particular skill isnt as strong as it used to be so their dps isnt quite as high, whatever. No big deal. But this patch is affecting an entire populations survivability. Really a huge difference.

Miswar · October 2018

Lysette wrote: »

You could all quit and it wouldn't make a difference (because the PvP crowd is small compared to the total users IMO) - and eventually we would get a PvE Cyrrodil then.

In which realm are you basing the assumption that it will be just PvP players that are leaving?

It is quite the contrary. Just had my last longer PvP + PvE night with guild friends. Some do PvP and some just PvE.

The amount of people downloading RDR2 tonight was staggering and quite few new longterm ESO players bought that product.

There was talk a lot of talk and +20 people were just logging on for writs from now on .... that amount includes many of the core people from the guild that I thought would keep on adapting forever...

..so to say that it will be just PvP people going out well you are dead wrong.

I have never seen so many people calling it a day or break from ESO in my +3 years of playing.

Anyways this was my last ESO night for foreseeable future. Hopefully ZoS wil start learning or this product is like an dead whale on sahara desert sooner than later.

Ender1310 · October 2018

Whiners are gonna whine. You will see them playing the next day. Take it with a grain of salt still the best game out.

Turelus · October 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Yeah!
And not just on Discord, but also on the forums.
I was one of them! And now we see the results of this "update".

You get an insightful from me because you've shown me something I never knew existed on the forums.

Tandor · October 2018

Ender1310 wrote: »

Whiners are gonna whine. You will see them playing the next day. Take it with a grain of salt still the best game out.

Indeed, but sometimes you have to let your friends go and try out the other ones so that they can realise that for themselves. When we see the other games they're going to, we know they'll be back.

Forget unpopular patches, the most serious reason people leave is over a point of real principle - such as the introduction of crown crates which caused an exodus of principled players most of whom have been back for ages.

doc_ketamine · October 2018

qbit wrote: »

Successful patch is successful. New game coming out very soon. Don’t forget who ZOS works for.

Y'know, I have been wondering this week about this. What if Bethesda forced them to make unwelcome changes, and forced out an unfinished build, with the goal of driving people away from this game to F76? And then in a few weeks there will be an unplayable update to F76 just when ESO miraculously gets more balanced and all the Bugmire issues are resolved?

Insidious.

Turelus · October 2018

doc_ketamine wrote: »

qbit wrote: »

Successful patch is successful. New game coming out very soon. Don’t forget who ZOS works for.

Y'know, I have been wondering this week about this. What if Bethesda forced them to make unwelcome changes, and forced out an unfinished build, with the goal of driving people away from this game to F76? And then in a few weeks there will be an unplayable update to F76 just when ESO miraculously gets more balanced and all the Bugmire issues are resolved?

Insidious.

I think once again I need more shares in tinfoil companies.

FlyingSwan · October 2018

ryudan91 wrote: »

Or this "ZergHate" about Nerfmire is kinda new, like a new record of number of people unsatisfied with changes reporting it here at forum?

I've been playing since beta and I think this is a particularly bad patch. In terms of quality, having any form of strategic intent, or delivering what the community want, this patch has badly missed the mark.

Games do require change, but a sensible developer will perform this by evolution not revolution. ZOS have used a sledge hammer to crack a nut and neither PvE or PvP players are happy with the change. I mean come on, the servers have been down 3 times this week to fix some of the bugs in the patch, that alone tells you it's a frigging mess. And the thing is, the community were warning ZOS very loudly with feedback from PTS, but ZOS just blundered on like the proverbial bull in a china shop.

I have always said that ESO is a great game, hampered by the fact it is run by an immature, inexperienced and really quite hopeless developer. And this time it really shows. Let's put it this way, if someone released line of business software of this low quality into an enterprise environment, jobs would be lost over it, but ZOS are so out of touch they'll just carry on oblivious.

That's why you are seeing a spectacular amount of annoyance this week, no one is happy with this, it's a total bodge job.