In every update that balances combat we have a such negative feedback at forum like this?

usmguy1234

Tandor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Banned from the game or banned from discord? Reasons given? Perhaps the language used and temper tantrums on discord? Like Turelus has said, ZOS tend to be open to critical discussion, but not open to people venting/ranting/being toxic.

@Tandor Both. I believe from Discord (not sure on details regarding this) and at least a couple of prominent forums posters did get bans (maybe just suspensions) from the forums during the first week.
Of the forums ones I noticed they were generally from people who went a step too far in expressing their dislike, or just spammed up every thread with unconstructive posts.

Thanks for the clarification. Not banned from the game, then.

"Ban" is a greatly misused word in my view, it almost always refers to "suspension".

It also helps to look at the comment that is being referenced.... you'll miss a lot of context if you don't. @Turelus is correct however.

usmguy1234

Vahrokh wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

A bunch of really active people on the sorc discord were either banned or perma banned during the pts fiasco. Most of these people are genuinely nice people and not deserving of such treatment. So, yes a lot of the discussions were very much censored.

Yeah!
And not just on Discord, but also on the forums.
I was one of them! And now we see the results of this "update".

I was muted as well.

lordspyder

I've been here since Beta, this is basically the status quo for nerf patches. Happens every time. "Oh, my guilds are empty, they're all leaving" Meanwhile 2 of my guilds just put out announcements that they're cracking down on people who don't log in for a bit because they're at max capacity and need the room to bring in new players. (this is not to say they're filled to the brim with people who aren't logging in, but pruning the handful of people who took extended breaks will allow us to bring in people who want to participate.

Then the people "oh, my guilds no longer do trials." Seriously, due to Halloween, my guilds have trials going on 24/7 just to get the people through. I don't get who these people are playing with, but none of this has been my experience. This honestly just seems business as usual.

usmguy1234

lordspyder wrote: »

I've been here since Beta, this is basically the status quo for nerf patches. Happens every time. "Oh, my guilds are empty, they're all leaving" Meanwhile 2 of my guilds just put out announcements that they're cracking down on people who don't log in for a bit because they're at max capacity and need the room to bring in new players. (this is not to say they're filled to the brim with people who aren't logging in, but pruning the handful of people who took extended breaks will allow us to bring in people who want to participate.

Then the people "oh, my guilds no longer do trials." Seriously, due to Halloween, my guilds have trials going on 24/7 just to get the people through. I don't get who these people are playing with, but none of this has been my experience. This honestly just seems business as usual.

Maybe there isn't a lot of competition. Large guilds usually stay that way until they self destruct or the guild leader disbands it/ quits.

BalticBlues

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

On the development side, we have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”.

[...]And my sincere apologies for rolling this out with no information, no background, and no heads-up. We take this very seriously, and we’ll make some process changes to ensure something like this doesn’t happen again in the future

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5430473/#Comment_5430473

When there was a change in HDR rendering recently, I admired this reaction of Matt Firor, giving a long explanation and reverting the changes after massive protests. He told people that they have a strict policy to never change art assets once they have been in the live game, except – and this is important – if they are obviously “wrong”. I wish something similar would exist for classes, skills, sets and combat which are even more important to players.

Players love their classes, their builds and their combat which took them years to master. Yes, if something is obviously “wrong” it needs to be balanced. But what is balancing? Balancing means fine-tuning by changing MINOR aspects in MODERATE ways. However, what we got instead are MAJOR adjustments ON SEVERAL THINGS at the same time. Result: balance got worse, not better. PTS testers saw this coming, there was a long and good discussion about this on PTS, unfortunately not with any feedback from a combat dev:

The Chisel vs The Hammer: An Open Letter to ZOS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438791/the-chisel-vs-the-hammer-an-open-letter-to-zos/p1

Players only ask for a little bit more balance using fine-tuning:


No more wild adjustments please creating a fiasco instead of balance:


ZOS, please consider small changes in the future to avoid big mistakes.

DanteYoda

Smashing Wardens for the sake of i'm not even sure anymore.. Were stamwardens knocking nightblades off their thrones or some such because honestly playing a magwarden is horrible now..

All i'd like to see is new balance developers added and my Australian connection stop being rerouted to the Netherlands for no apparent reason...

mb10

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Meanwhile the ingame population (PC EU) is huge with masses of players still participating in the Witches Festival at delves and dolmens, for example, and with everyone seemingly playing just fine. Dungeons, trials, and Cyrodiil may be very different of course, I wouldn't know, but the game as a whole certainly isn't broken as some try and make out.

As for bugs and performance issues, I haven't personally experienced any. I haven't yet gone to Murkmire itself although I've enjoyed doing the prologue quest and am heading to Murkmire today. My playstyle means I'm not affected by the balancing changes, but I recommend in all these respects that people exercise a little patience as the first incremental patch after a major update often resolves a lot of issues, as I believe it will, for example, with the pet survivability bug based on what Jessica has said.

People just quit now lol they dont post it, theyre so done with the game that they arent even raging enough to post about it

Sylvermynx

@DanteYoda:

I'm not finding either my tankden or magden an issue in PVE overland. In fact, my tankden managed the nasty little boss in Divad's Chagrin alone this morning while a sorc beat on the ogre.

Now for the magden, I just always use the bear anyway, because pets make things so much better for me, mitigating some of the hell 2000 ms lag provides....

DanteYoda

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@DanteYoda:

I'm not finding either my tankden or magden an issue in PVE overland. In fact, my tankden managed the nasty little boss in Divad's Chagrin alone this morning while a sorc beat on the ogre.

Now for the magden, I just always use the bear anyway, because pets make things so much better for me, mitigating some of the hell 2000 ms lag provides....

I could never play a game in those condition you are a better person than i imo.

Sylvermynx

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@DanteYoda:

I'm not finding either my tankden or magden an issue in PVE overland. In fact, my tankden managed the nasty little boss in Divad's Chagrin alone this morning while a sorc beat on the ogre.

Now for the magden, I just always use the bear anyway, because pets make things so much better for me, mitigating some of the hell 2000 ms lag provides....

I could never play a game in those condition you are a better person than i imo.

It's what I have. We'll never have fiber here - less than 125 full time residents - a third of those children/teens. The small town 20 miles north of us got fiber this year - they have about 10k residents, with many more in the surrounding county areas. Asked the provider if they had consider running fiber into here, got laughed at.

I love where I live. Cleanest air, cleanest water, not many obnoxious neighbors, lovely mountain, gorgeous scenery, lots of wildlife. I wouldn't trade it for the city down the road - with all the damn "refugees" from other states trying to change things to exactly like where they left, even though supposedly they moved here because they hated where they moved from; and the horrible traffic etc.

So I deal with satellite. I don't foist myself on others because no one should have to put up with lag like mine, I just putz along solo. I'm having fun, more fun than I had in the last days I spent in either WoW or RIFT.

Works for me.

MehrunesFlagon

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

DanteYoda

Sylvermynx wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@DanteYoda:

I'm not finding either my tankden or magden an issue in PVE overland. In fact, my tankden managed the nasty little boss in Divad's Chagrin alone this morning while a sorc beat on the ogre.

Now for the magden, I just always use the bear anyway, because pets make things so much better for me, mitigating some of the hell 2000 ms lag provides....

I could never play a game in those condition you are a better person than i imo.

It's what I have. We'll never have fiber here - less than 125 full time residents - a third of those children/teens. The small town 20 miles north of us got fiber this year - they have about 10k residents, with many more in the surrounding county areas. Asked the provider if they had consider running fiber into here, got laughed at.

I love where I live. Cleanest air, cleanest water, not many obnoxious neighbors, lovely mountain, gorgeous scenery, lots of wildlife. I wouldn't trade it for the city down the road - with all the damn "refugees" from other states trying to change things to exactly like where they left, even though supposedly they moved here because they hated where they moved from; and the horrible traffic etc.

So I deal with satellite. I don't foist myself on others because no one should have to put up with lag like mine, I just putz along solo. I'm having fun, more fun than I had in the last days I spent in either WoW or RIFT.

Works for me.

Awesomes for you, but here i should not be getting 533 pings as i was getting 250 a few months ago.. Honestly only ESO is giving me issues so i'm moving to maple story 2, i enjoy it far more.

i'm only still here because i'm collecting those Indrik tickets, in case i ever play ESO again..

Sylvermynx

Yeah, you never know - they might do something wonderful for you guys. Let's hope so! If you really leave the forums, I'll miss you.

Turelus

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

Considering drugs are still illegal in many countries, seems about right they don't want open support and discussion on it in their forums.

Morgul667

Zos has a gem with TESO and is yet insisting on breaking it bit by bit

They are known for ignoring people and introducing loads of bug with every update despite feedbacks

They have been over the edge with this update (even judging them with the Very low zos screw up scale)

Zypheran

Feanor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I would put this one down to they did a big change to a long established system.

Most of the rage has been centred around the shield changes, which no matter how ZOS addressed them was going to cause an uproar from people.

The additional balance changes and issues introduced however have just given more fuel to that fire.

No, no, no. This isn’t going to fly this time. You can’t blame the players on this one. Not this time.

Let’s see. The baseline is: No matter if I agree with a change or not, I will accept it and not go into level 12 Enrage stage when the change follows a clear design idea and is at least defensible. Yet most of the changes just look like random stuff bunched together - to the point where ZOS has been ridiculed by assuming they throw darts as selection process for their balance changes.

If you take the mentioned shield „adjustments“, the issues people had voiced was always shield stacking. And nobody actually complained about shields in PvE, because DDs only run one when it’s absolutely necessary in specific encounters. Shields are a DPS loss otherwise.

Now, for the design goal and the change being defensible. What ZOS thought is an acceptable change was giving shields a 1 sec cast time that couldn’t be animation cancelled, and in PTS 1, could also be interrupted. That is a solution that neither solved the alleged problem, didn’t follow game design principles elsewhere (no defense mechanic has cast times), and wasn’t even defensible because everyone with a slight ounce of playing experience could see that this would disrupt rotations in PvE, would bring more one shots, and in PvP be utterly ridiculous due to being interruptible. And if that wasn’t enough, they added crits to the damage on shields.

This has nothing to do with a nerf to a popular play style. It has a lot to do with the change being absolutely indefensible for anyone actually having played a magicka char relying on shields.

Now, granted, they changed the cast time and introduced the HP cap, making Bastion a useless CP star in the process while still not solving the crusade a lot of players were on - shield stacking. The HP cap is per shield. So, while the stack is essentially half now, it’s about the only thing you can do if you don’t want to play a resistance capped tank char.

Again, this is following no clear design goal, is against game mechanics elsewhere (no other defense is HP capped while using a secondary pool as another factor for scaling), and is indefensible in the grand scheme.

So. No, no, no. This isn’t player outrage because a shiny toy got taken away. This is a ball that got dropped hard.

Edited on a minor part due to a user suggestion.

Excellent post @feanor. You hit the nail on the head. The rage (which is a bit OTT imo) is not aimed just at the changes, but at the lack of sense that seems to be behind them.
The issue was shield stacking, the solution was absurd and the result is that now shield stacking will be a necessity for play styles.
I think the issue here is that if you give a man a hammer and a bag of nails, what's he going to do?! We have a combat team who must justify their roles by making changes and these changes must be substantial enough to prove they are doing a good job. It is altogether possible (and it even starts to seem probable to me) that typical modern management techniques of metrics are causing good developers to approach their roles with a quantity over quality approach.

Mannix1958

Lysette wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Every patch for like 2 years has made the game feel worse for me.

I can't remember the last patch i was excited for.

Well, I guess that is because you follow the new meta every time - and if this is the "best build", there is a nearly 100% chance, that you will be disappointed by any changes - simply because the new meta is not your old build. So this is just a consequence of your choices made and not really ZOS fault.

Edit: Not sure if I put my point forward correctly - if you always go for the "best build" after every new patch - and a patch's goal is to break this meta and make it more balanced, then any change will feel to you as being worse. But this is due to you following the meta - and there is no way around it, for as long as you do it like that.

You are so arrogant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? He could have been like me playing an overload build for years that relied on the third bar and keyed on the light attack damage...not a META but one I put together long ago and was very niche. Or a Sorc healer that must be rebuilt as well.

You always assume those who disagree with you are somehow inferior..pull your head out to see there those with differing viewpoints that are legitimate and breath some fresh air.

Mannix1958

Turelus wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

Considering drugs are still illegal in many countries, seems about right they don't want open support and discussion on it in their forums.

Come on...like they don't have skooma in the game?

Turelus

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

Considering drugs are still illegal in many countries, seems about right they don't want open support and discussion on it in their forums.

Come on...like they don't have skooma in the game?

Right, but that's not a real world drug and not going to give the same bad press or enrage people the same way.

Mannix1958

Turelus wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

Considering drugs are still illegal in many countries, seems about right they don't want open support and discussion on it in their forums.

Come on...like they don't have skooma in the game?

Right, but that's not a real world drug and not going to give the same bad press or enrage people the same way.

I have to agree ...

Ohtimbar

Turelus wrote: »

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think the forum feedback this time is any worse than with Morrowind, if anything the "quitting" reports are fewer in number than then. Balancing changes always generate a number of complaints, but the threads here typically only run to 4 or 5 pages and that's nothing compared to some game forums I've frequented in the past where critical thread pages would easily number in three figures and those games had lower populations overall than ESO.

Perhaps the moderators on those forums aren't as picky as the mods on our forums. There are plenty of threads that get deleted by mods here and swept under the rug.

As I said in another thread, ZOS generally doesn't lock threads based on bad feedback or disagreement with their development alone, that can be seen by how many open threads there are with such at the moment.

Threads get locked when the discussions are not constructive and people just venting/ranting/being toxic.

ZOS locked one of mine when I asked for a stoner personality.Inappropriate my ass.

Considering drugs are still illegal in many countries, seems about right they don't want open support and discussion on it in their forums.

Come on...like they don't have skooma in the game?

Right, but that's not a real world drug and not going to give the same bad press or enrage people the same way.

That's a thin defense considering skooma is very similar to a harmful real world drug. Not that I mind, but it seems like silly overmoderation to me. Basically all we do is murder people in this game and mods are worried about illicit plants? Killing is illegal almost everywhere.